Stockton CA militia being formed

[chris in va]

Anybody see this yet?

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.d...NEWS/904070327

Concerned resident aims to form armed militia to patrol Stockton

By David Siders
Record Staff Writer
April 07, 2009 6:00 AM

STOCKTON - A retired truck driver and Vietnam War veteran said Monday that he is forming an armed militia - mostly men with rifles and armbands, four to a car - to patrol Stockton this summer, when at least 43 police officers are to be laid off.

Alan Pettet, 66, said he has recruited 18 men, most of whom are ex-military. He said the militia will train at a firing range and "activate" if the city lays off any officer, as it intends by July 1.

The likelihood of an armed militia materializing is uncertain - there are legal concerns, and posturing to influence City Hall is not uncommon - but for a neighborhood activist even to advance such a proposal was indicative of frustration about Stockton's awful budget forecast. The City Council is expected by July 1, the start of fiscal 2009-10, to order police layoffs and spending reductions citywide to balance a general fund budget that is otherwise expected to be $31million in deficit by June 2010.

Pettet, a midtown neighborhood activist who has a Desert Eagle pistol, said militiamen will detain suspected criminals and call police to arrest them. They will wear armbands and will patrol in a car marked by a magnetic sign, he said.

"It's going to be 'Stockton Armed Militia,'" Pettet said. "'SAM' for short."

Neither the Police Department nor the city administration was impressed.

"We are not at the point that we need to have armed militias patrolling Stockton," Vice Mayor Kathy Miller said.

Mayor Ann Johnston said, "Oh, no no no no, no no no. ... We don't want armed citizens out there who are not trained."

That it is illegal in most circumstances in California to carry a loaded firearm in one's car did not disturb Pettet.

"If you look under the Constitution, a militia can be formed," he said. "Watch and see. Who's going to stop us?"

Attorney and anti-blight activist Ron Stein, who is a friend of Pettet's and has been advising him, said the militia will conform to state law, perhaps by having members seek permits to carry concealed handguns.

"You've got to do what you've got to do," Stein said.

Pettet said the militia will bill the city $350 per hour for its services. City Attorney Ren Nosky said he knew of no legal basis requiring the city to pay such a bill.

Nosky had other reservations, too.

"I just don't know if that's in the best interest of these gentlemen, from a safety perspective," he said. "We have a concern about the level of training that these gentlemen have, if any, especially in light of the firearms that they say they're going to be carrying."

Police encourage people to report crimes and form Neighborhood Watch groups, said Officer Pete Smith, a department spokesman. To form a militia is "taking it to another level," he said.

"It's ill advised," he said.

Stockton's violent crime rate is among the highest in the state. (Emphasis mine) Stein and Pettet are critical of a budget proposal by City Manager Gordon Palmer that would require laying off at least 43 of the city's 403 police officers.

"We've got to protect ourselves," Stein said. "We are in the wild, wild West when you take people who are supposed to protect us off the street."

The telephone number Pettet is using for the militia is that of midtown's Safe Neighborhood Action Group, a group formed in the 1990s.

"You've reached the Safe Neighborhood Action Group," a recording at that number said. "Helping to protect Stockton citizens from their mayor and City Council."

[Hirlau]

GOOD !

[tiberius10721]

Hell ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sign me up !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wildalaska]

That it is illegal in most circumstances in California to carry a loaded firearm in one's car did not disturb Pettet.

"If you look under the Constitution, a militia can be formed," he said. "Watch and see. Who's going to stop us?"

I admire the courage of their convictions. I hope when they are convicted that they get locked up and the key gets thrown away, like we should lock up every other armed criminal.

Being white and calling yourself a militia does not make you less of a thug.

So tactically, when you are legally armed and some fat guy in BDUs with a gun approaches you in a hostile manner, what do you do?

WildwhatadisgracetogunownersAlaska ™

[dm1333]

Pettet said the militia will bill the city $350 per hour for its services. City Attorney Ren Nosky said he knew of no legal basis requiring the city to pay such a bill.

That is all that needs to be said.:barf:

[Csspecs]

Pettet said the militia will bill the city $350 per hour for its services. City Attorney Ren Nosky said he knew of no legal basis requiring the city to pay such a bill.

And here I had the feeling like it was for the good of people not to charge the city chunks of cash.

[johnwilliamson062]

they aren't expecting the city to pay. they are just bringing attention to the fact that they are "performing a service"

[johnwilliamson062]

so, is there any way for a non-resident to become an associate member? All I want is a bumper sticker...

[teeroux]

So tactically, when you are legally armed and some fat guy in BDUs with a gun approaches you in a hostile manner, what do you do?

Fat guy is gonna have a bad day he is not a police officer he is a civillian like me, he is not sactioned by any form goverment which means he doesn't have any offical duty to perform and I will have no duty to comply to someone just cause his wacko leader says so. He can leave me alone or be shot.

Also after having shot an armband wearin fool I would have to assume everyone else with an armband and is armed or just in large number is out to harm me to thus they will also be shot.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

My famous militia picture:

[Gbro]

Tennessee Gentleman,
You the one with the BFR???

[warnerwh]

Do you guys know these people? How do you know they're a bunch of idiots. I have friends in their sixties and I would be more than happy to have them patrol the streets if they wanted to. I'm sure they're much more competent than a considerable percentage on this board. The people are intelligent and competent people. It is lawful to perform a citizen's arrest. You don't have to be a cop.

I just want to know how you can criticize people you know nothing about. Maybe you should give up your CCW's or maybe everybody should because why should citizens be doing things that cops do if they're not trained. I've never trained to be a cop but know first hand how I deal with myself when my system goes into the fight or flight mode. I'm not convinced we know the whole story. I don't trust any journalist no matter what side they are on.

[ChicagoTex]

they aren't expecting the city to pay. they are just bringing attention to the fact that they are "performing a service"

A service they're not giving the city any choice in them performing. It's the same con as when magazine companies used to send you magazines in the mail unsolicited and then bill you for them.

These nuts are part of the problem, not the solution and should be treated like any other criminal organization/gang.

Being white and calling yourself a militia does not make you less of a thug.

Couldn't agree more.

[RedneckFur]

I admire the courage of their convictions. I hope when they are convicted that they get locked up and the key gets thrown away, like we should lock up every other armed criminal.

They're standing up for their rights, and trying to protect their comunity, and their families, in a city with a high crime rate thats about to have even less law inforcement. (whom we all know isnt even required by law to protect us.)
If they are armed criminals, they are some of the most noble armed criminals I've seen.

[ChicagoTex]

They're standing up for their rights

By breaking numerous laws...

and trying to protect their comunity

by forcing themselves as vigilantes upon their own neighborhoods without anyone's asking or consent... and then billing them for it.

If they are armed criminals, they are some of the most noble armed criminals I've seen.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I hope these boys like it hot.

[teeroux]

It is lawful to perform a citizen's arrest

Yes it is lawful for a person who witnesses a crime to make an arrest.

What this is here is a group of people unsanctioned and incommisioned by any form of government fullfilling the role of law enforcement.

I've never trained to be a cop

Yeah well these folks sure haven't either and I don't always trust the police to know every letter of the law much less let a group of joe blows policing the streets armed in the name of what they think is right.

Last I checked we elect who we want to be law enforcement and the folks we elect have say in who is law enforcement.

Neither seems to be the case here.

[chris in va]

You guys really crack me up.

Here's a question. As you know Stockton is a cesspool of crime compared to the national average. The CA .gov funds are in the red, and they're laying off over 10% of their police force.

So what would you have done, since you're against a citizen 'militia'? Curious.

What this is here is a group of people unsanctioned and incommisioned by any form of government

Militias aren't formed by government.

Definition of 'militia'...

The term militia is commonly used today to refer to a military force composed of ordinary citizens to provide defense, emergency law enforcement, (emphasis mine) or paramilitary service, in times of emergency without being paid a regular salary or committed to a fixed term of service

[teeroux]

Oh well I guess it just depends on location.

Last folks got together and formed a private militia around these parts I recall called themselves the ku klux klan and we all know they sure thought they were doing the right thing too.

Militias aren't formed by government.

Some are next time you use wiki try to read the whole thing.

[PoorSoulInJersey]

"If you look under the Constitution, a militia can be formed," he said. "Watch and see. Who's going to stop us?"

I love when people hide behind "it's my right to do this, so I can do what I want!"

There is a fine line between citizens defending their homes (a good thing) and a bunch of vigilantes taking the law in their own hands (a bad thing).

These guys would have no legal authority to do anything. They can't pull someone over, they can't forcibly detain anyone (a citizen's arrest doesn't mean you can handcuff someone and lock them up somewhere or hold them at gunpoint), they can't claim self defense if they chase after someone. Heck, they can't even legally carry guns. Just going on patrol while armed could land them in jail.

What exactly is it that you expect them to do?

These people, who appear to have the best of intentions and only want to be safe in their homes, could very well find themselves in jail facing felony charges sooner than the people they are trying to protect themselves from. Once that happens, then the criminals really know which houses aren't protected, since it WILL make the news when some guy on patrol gets arrested. There's a big difference between being armed in your home, ready to defend it, and going looking for people.

There's a little bit of "game theory" to consider here. What will the BGs do in response? Will they start a little vigilante justice of their own against the militia members? Or will they just leave?

It almost sounds like the plot of a movie we'd end up making fun of. "A small town, frustrated with lack of police protection, takes the law into its own hands."

What would I do if it was my neighborhood? If my town was that bad, I'd move. The neighborhood won't be cleaned up by a few people going on patrol, especially with no law enforcement. I'm not going to get myself arrested, leaving my family REALLY undefended.

If they are armed criminals, they are some of the most noble armed criminals I've seen.

Therein lies the worst part about this situation. I totally agree with what they want to do: defend their homes, families, and neighborhoods.

It stinks that they are breaking the law as well, in a very visible way, and could probably end up in jail for it.

[Bud Helms]

An interesting division of opinions on this one. Militia-related discussions usually devolve quickly into senseless arguments.

As long as this remains civil, I think it might stay open, but it will have to be in the Law & Civil Rights forum.

Moving now.

[hogdogs]

They can't pull someone over, they can't forcibly detain anyone (a citizen's arrest doesn't mean you can handcuff someone and lock them up somewhere or hold them at gunpoint), they can't claim self defense if they chase after someone.

Just one of the great reasons I will remain in florida!!! It is fully legal to do all of the above if a "Violent Felony" was witnessed by the Florida legal citizen!

Heck, they can't even legally carry guns. Just going on patrol while armed could land them in jail.

And another of the many reasons I live in the "Gunshine" state!
The incredible "eyecandy" ranks right up there too!
Brent

[orchidhunter]

Many California militias operate in probable violation of a state law banning paramilitary organizations. orchidhunter

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Originally Posted by Gbro

Tennessee Gentleman, You the one with the BFR???

No, I took the picture.

Originally Posted by chris in va

Militias aren't formed by government.

Absolutely wrong. Any miltia in the US is by definition called and controlled by the government; state or federal. Absent that, the group in question is nothing more than an unauthorized paramilitary organization and probably illegal.

[PoorSoulInJersey]

Just one of the great reasons I will remain in florida!!! It is fully legal to do all of the above if a "Violent Felony" was witnessed by the Florida legal citizen!

That's part of my concern. Breaking into a car, trespassing on someone's lawn (looking in the window), or wandering down a street with your hood up are all things that the militia group might try to stop someone for, but they are not violent felonies.

You'd have to catch someone just after seeing them kill someone in order to arrest them.

[BlueTrain]

I wouldn't be surprised that most of the members of these militia groups are against the taxes that pay the police. In other words, they don't believe in government performing the functions that goverment exists for to begin with. Mind you, plenty of people, sometimes quite logically, are perfectly willing to eliminate lots of things that governments do. Schools? I don't have children; why should I pay taxes to support schools?

Eventually, with this line of reasoning, you will have private schools, private roads, and private security services. We have had all of those things at one time or another in one place or another.

Then there's military service. Everyone here probably loves the military and thinks, well, who knows what, but nobody thinks there ought to be a draft.