Thompson Center Arms .45 rifle

BigPapa4147 · October 16, 2009, 07:18 PM

I received a muzzle- loading black powder rifle from my grandfather a few years back and was wondering if anybody could tell me anything about it. The barrel says Thompson Center Arms Cal 45. My grandfather told me he bought it as a kit back in the 80s and put it together himself. It has never been fired and I would love to shoot it if possible. Any info would be great. Thanks

B.L.E. · October 16, 2009, 09:00 PM

Does it look sorta like this?

If so, it works well with a patched round ball and rather light loads due to its rather fast 1 in 48 rifleing twist that was a compromise between round ball and bullet twist.
TC lists a maximum load of 90 gr FFg if I remember correctly.
My personal best accuracy seemed to come with around 50 gr FFFg and .445 roundball patched with .010 patching but each rifle is an individual and experimentation is required to find the sweet load.
TC Maxi Ball bullets also work but these aren't accurate until you reach almost maximum loads.

Lot's of folks still shoot these at muzzleloading matches but usually replace the barrel with a custom Green Mountain drop in replacement barrel with a no-compromise slow twist for round ball shooting.

It's a good gun, have fun with it.

Pahoo · October 16, 2009, 09:16 PM

A few possibilities here and B.L.E. is showing you a Hawken Model. This is probably what it is. After that, it coud be a Seneca, Renegade and a few choices after that. Go to gun broker and you will see pictures that would match your rifle. Is there a name stamped on the barrel? If not, it's an "Pre-Stamp" model. Yes, it's safe to shoot after a little more prep work, I see no reason why not. Folks in this forum will give you additional input if you can provide more info and even pictures. I have a few kits together myself and own quite a few of the older side-locks. TC will even provide you with a loading manual. Going to warn you that you can catch the bug and be hooked for life. Sure wish I could find the old guy that got me hooked years ago. ....

Be Safe !!!

B.L.E. · October 16, 2009, 09:55 PM

I guessed the Hawkin model because it was most likely to be sold as a kit and the '80s was generally before the in-line, sabot bullet, pellet powder charge heresy.

In the '80s, muzzloaders wanted to shoot like Davy Crockett, not take advantage of special ML hunting seasons. Most states did not yet have special ML only seasons yet.

BigPapa4147 · October 16, 2009, 10:08 PM

Yes it does pretty much look like the picture. And no, it doesn't have any name stampes on it. And I can't figure out how to upload pictures from my phone, I'll try when I get home in the morning. Thanks

arcticap · October 17, 2009, 01:52 AM

Here's a PDF copy of the TC side lock owner's manual with maximum load information plus much more.

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals...owder_Guns.pdf

mykeal · October 17, 2009, 06:17 AM

It's most likely a Seneca. Both the Seneca and the Cherokee were available in .45 cal in the 80's as kit guns; I'm not aware of a .45 Hawken or Renegade as a kit in that time frame.

The Hawken has a 28" barrel; the Seneca barrel is 27", the Renegade is 26" and the Cherokee is 24". All had octagonal barrels and double set triggers. The Hawken has a patchbox; the Renegade does not. I don't recall if the Cherokee had a patchbox or not, but I believe the Seneca did.

Measure the barrel length by putting a cleaning jag on the ramrod, dropping it in the bore to the bottom and measuring the length of the rod inside the barrel. The cleaning jag is to keep the rod tip out of the patent breech.

B.L.E. · October 17, 2009, 06:45 AM

Just another thought, when testing load accuracy, don't shoot on a windy day or a day that is partly cloudy. Changing light will change the point of aim when shooting with open sights and even a mild 5 mph crosswind will drift a roundball several inches at 100 yards.

I didn't know this when I first started shooting muzzleloaders and I kept blaming the barrel.

Pahoo · October 17, 2009, 03:58 PM

Okay, Foller me on this !! ...

From the toe of the buttstock up the belly, is there a flat , brass plate, say about 1/8" thick by 1/2" wide? If so, it's a Seneca. If not, it's probably a Hawken model, if it has a brass nose cap. The Seneca also has a trapazoidal cheek rest where the Hawkens is oval in shape. Both the Seneca and the Hawken has a patch box although the Seneca's is smaller. At any rate, reference tha manual link that arcticap has provided. Again, pictures of both, are currently showing on GunBroker.

Be Safe !!!

BigPapa4147 · October 17, 2009, 04:09 PM

It's not the seneca, it looks just like all the pictures of the Hawken that I'm seeing online.

dewcrew8 · October 17, 2009, 08:58 PM

the early 70's kit was a 45 hawken . after you break it in ,try and find some sabots for it and youll have some fun!! i use 357 158gr slugs in mine,and they fly!!

mykeal · October 18, 2009, 07:36 AM

So, what is the barrel length?

BigPapa4147 · October 18, 2009, 08:45 AM

I havn't had a chance to measure the barrel yet because I can't find my tape measure (it's funny how stuff dissapears when you need it). I could also be off on its age. judging by the descriptions and pics I'm almost 100% positive its a Hawken

mykeal · October 18, 2009, 03:09 PM

Managed to dig out some pictures of a Seneca I restored last winter:

For comparison, here's one of my Hawkens, a .54:

And here's my .50 kit Hawken:

The differences in the cheek pieces are obvious and should clear up any questions remaining.
One other measurement that tells the tale is the width of the barrel across the flats. The Seneca measures 13/16", the .45 and .50 Hawkens measure 15/16" and the .54 Hawken measures 1".

simonkenton · October 18, 2009, 03:21 PM

You have got your hands on a great rifle! American made, I really like the Thompson Center guns, especially the Hawken.

I have had mine for 28 years and have killed ten deer and wild hogs with it.
I shoot patched round ball.

Mine is a .50 but yours will make a good deer rifle.

BigPapa4147 · October 18, 2009, 04:42 PM

Yep, definatly a Hawken. Tomorrow I'm gonna go pick up some bp, caps and balls, along with all the other equipment. Any ideas as to whaty I should get (brand and type of powder and caps). I have very little experince. I've only fired my friends modern muzzle loader a few times. Thanks

simonkenton · October 18, 2009, 05:46 PM

Get Goex ffg black powder if you can.
CCI caps work for me.

bubba15301 · October 18, 2009, 06:19 PM

They did make the hawken kit in .45 cal. I had one in flintlock

B.L.E. · October 18, 2009, 06:21 PM

Goex makes a very good black powder. Schutzen is good also. Bench rest shooters consider Swiss black powder some of the best available but it costs quite a bit extra.
Not every place sells real black powder due to the regulations regarding black powder. It has to be stored in a special powder magazine so the places that do sell it usually don't have it on display on the store shelves, they have to get a can of it from the back of the store.
If you can't find real black powder, Pyrodex RS works quite well, makes just as much smoke, and doesn't smell all that different. It's harder to ignite so you may want to buy magnum caps.
CCI makes the best percussion caps IMHO. Size 11 is what you need.
.440 diameter round balls and .015 inch thick pillow ticking patches should work ok.
Using an empty .30-30 shell for a powder measure is a good starting load if you don't wish to buy an adjustable powder measure.

To clean the barrel after shooting, pull the wedge pin out of the forestock and lift the barrel up and out of the stock. Unscrew the nipple and put the back of the barrel into a bucket of water and use the ramrod with a cleaning patch to pump water into and out of the barrel and then oil the bore. The breech plugs in traditional style muzzleloaders are not meant to be removed by the user.

Have fun.

BigPapa4147 · October 20, 2009, 04:00 AM

I went up to Dunham's yesterday and picked up a few odds and ends, would have gotten more, but as usual no one was behind the counter so I couldn't get a good look at the powder, primers or balls and after 10 mins of waiting, after I asked for help up front, I paid for what I had and left. Figured id go to gander mountain today, or if I have the time cabelas later this week. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the range next week.

Beartrak · October 21, 2009, 09:16 AM

The regulations on real BP are really stringent on the supplier.
It must be kept in a magazine out of the public's reach. The magazine must have an inventory 'inside' and must be updated 'each' day. Every pound of powder sold must be logged out to the buyer and the inventory immediately updated. THEN, the inventory must be updated and logged at the close of business EACH day.
Or, you can simply go to www.powderinc.com and order what you want. Just be ready for the five pound minimum order!

mykeal · October 21, 2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Every pound of powder sold must be logged out to the buyer and the inventory immediately updated.

If by "...logged out to the buyer..." you mean that the buyer's name or other information must be recorded, that's not a federal regulation. It may be local requirement where you live, but none of the retail stores that sell real bp in Michigan (that I've been to) have ever done that. They do keep track of inventory on a log in the magazine, but there's no buyer information in that log.

BigPapa4147 · October 25, 2009, 12:34 AM

I've been reading through the manual on TC's website and it says to only use black powder or pyrodex. My friend told me I should use 777 powder because it's more consistant. My Hawken is from the 70s and I was wondering if 777 is safe to use.

arcticap · October 25, 2009, 01:46 AM

From the TC manual:

Quote:

NOTE: The loading data found in this manual was compiled using
Black Powder or Pyrodex as a propellant. With any other approved
Black Powder substitute follow the instructions supplied by the manufacturer
and heed all warnings as they apply to loading and usage
of that product.

Quote:

Make no mistake about it, Black Powder or an approved Black
Powder Substitute such as Pyrodex® are the only propellant powders
that are safe to use in a muzzleloading firearm.

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals...owder_Guns.pdf

777 is safe to use. For equivalent loads, measure and load 15% less volume of 777.

Some folks find that it's less consistent and some folks find that it's more consistent.
It's advisable to not compress the powder charge too much when ramming the projectile. Load consistently each time and work up the most accurate load by adjusting the amount of powder. Start with a low powder charge and work up in 5 -10 grain increments until you're satisified with the results.
Sometimes folks need to experiment with the patch thickness or lube, the size or type of projectile, the amount and brand of powder or whether to use an over powder wad or not.
After seeing some results then you decide if 777 shoots more consistently in your rifle.

October 16, 2009, 07:18 PM	#1
BigPapa4147 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 116	Thompson Center Arms .45 rifle I received a muzzle- loading black powder rifle from my grandfather a few years back and was wondering if anybody could tell me anything about it. The barrel says Thompson Center Arms Cal 45. My grandfather told me he bought it as a kit back in the 80s and put it together himself. It has never been fired and I would love to shoot it if possible. Any info would be great. Thanks __________________ When ye are in the service of your fellow beings, ye are only in the service of your God.

October 16, 2009, 10:08 PM	#5
BigPapa4147 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 116	Yes it does pretty much look like the picture. And no, it doesn't have any name stampes on it. And I can't figure out how to upload pictures from my phone, I'll try when I get home in the morning. Thanks __________________ When ye are in the service of your fellow beings, ye are only in the service of your God.

October 17, 2009, 06:17 AM	#7
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	It's most likely a Seneca. Both the Seneca and the Cherokee were available in .45 cal in the 80's as kit guns; I'm not aware of a .45 Hawken or Renegade as a kit in that time frame. The Hawken has a 28" barrel; the Seneca barrel is 27", the Renegade is 26" and the Cherokee is 24". All had octagonal barrels and double set triggers. The Hawken has a patchbox; the Renegade does not. I don't recall if the Cherokee had a patchbox or not, but I believe the Seneca did. Measure the barrel length by putting a cleaning jag on the ramrod, dropping it in the bore to the bottom and measuring the length of the rod inside the barrel. The cleaning jag is to keep the rod tip out of the patent breech. Last edited by mykeal; October 17, 2009 at 06:24 AM.

October 17, 2009, 04:09 PM	#10
BigPapa4147 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 116	It's not the seneca, it looks just like all the pictures of the Hawken that I'm seeing online. __________________ When ye are in the service of your fellow beings, ye are only in the service of your God.

October 18, 2009, 08:45 AM	#13
BigPapa4147 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 116	I havn't had a chance to measure the barrel yet because I can't find my tape measure (it's funny how stuff dissapears when you need it). I could also be off on its age. judging by the descriptions and pics I'm almost 100% positive its a Hawken __________________ When ye are in the service of your fellow beings, ye are only in the service of your God.

October 16, 2009, 09:00 PM	#2
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Does it look sorta like this? If so, it works well with a patched round ball and rather light loads due to its rather fast 1 in 48 rifleing twist that was a compromise between round ball and bullet twist. TC lists a maximum load of 90 gr FFg if I remember correctly. My personal best accuracy seemed to come with around 50 gr FFFg and .445 roundball patched with .010 patching but each rifle is an individual and experimentation is required to find the sweet load. TC Maxi Ball bullets also work but these aren't accurate until you reach almost maximum loads. Lot's of folks still shoot these at muzzleloading matches but usually replace the barrel with a custom Green Mountain drop in replacement barrel with a no-compromise slow twist for round ball shooting. It's a good gun, have fun with it.

October 16, 2009, 09:16 PM	#3
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	A few possibilities here and B.L.E. is showing you a Hawken Model. This is probably what it is. After that, it coud be a Seneca, Renegade and a few choices after that. Go to gun broker and you will see pictures that would match your rifle. Is there a name stamped on the barrel? If not, it's an "Pre-Stamp" model. Yes, it's safe to shoot after a little more prep work, I see no reason why not. Folks in this forum will give you additional input if you can provide more info and even pictures. I have a few kits together myself and own quite a few of the older side-locks. TC will even provide you with a loading manual. Going to warn you that you can catch the bug and be hooked for life. Sure wish I could find the old guy that got me hooked years ago. .... Be Safe !!!

October 16, 2009, 09:55 PM	#4
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	I guessed the Hawkin model because it was most likely to be sold as a kit and the '80s was generally before the in-line, sabot bullet, pellet powder charge heresy. In the '80s, muzzloaders wanted to shoot like Davy Crockett, not take advantage of special ML hunting seasons. Most states did not yet have special ML only seasons yet.

October 17, 2009, 01:52 AM	#6
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Here's a PDF copy of the TC side lock owner's manual with maximum load information plus much more. http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals...owder_Guns.pdf

October 17, 2009, 06:45 AM	#8
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Just another thought, when testing load accuracy, don't shoot on a windy day or a day that is partly cloudy. Changing light will change the point of aim when shooting with open sights and even a mild 5 mph crosswind will drift a roundball several inches at 100 yards. I didn't know this when I first started shooting muzzleloaders and I kept blaming the barrel.

October 17, 2009, 03:58 PM	#9
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Okay, Foller me on this !! ... From the toe of the buttstock up the belly, is there a flat , brass plate, say about 1/8" thick by 1/2" wide? If so, it's a Seneca. If not, it's probably a Hawken model, if it has a brass nose cap. The Seneca also has a trapazoidal cheek rest where the Hawkens is oval in shape. Both the Seneca and the Hawken has a patch box although the Seneca's is smaller. At any rate, reference tha manual link that arcticap has provided. Again, pictures of both, are currently showing on GunBroker. Be Safe !!!

October 17, 2009, 08:58 PM	#11
dewcrew8 Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2009 Posts: 214	the early 70's kit was a 45 hawken . after you break it in ,try and find some sabots for it and youll have some fun!! i use 357 158gr slugs in mine,and they fly!!

October 18, 2009, 07:36 AM	#12
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	So, what is the barrel length?

October 18, 2009, 03:09 PM	#14
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Managed to dig out some pictures of a Seneca I restored last winter: For comparison, here's one of my Hawkens, a .54: And here's my .50 kit Hawken: The differences in the cheek pieces are obvious and should clear up any questions remaining. One other measurement that tells the tale is the width of the barrel across the flats. The Seneca measures 13/16", the .45 and .50 Hawkens measure 15/16" and the .54 Hawken measures 1".

October 18, 2009, 03:21 PM	#15
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	You have got your hands on a great rifle! American made, I really like the Thompson Center guns, especially the Hawken. I have had mine for 28 years and have killed ten deer and wild hogs with it. I shoot patched round ball. Mine is a .50 but yours will make a good deer rifle.

October 18, 2009, 04:42 PM	#16
BigPapa4147 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 116	Yep, definatly a Hawken. Tomorrow I'm gonna go pick up some bp, caps and balls, along with all the other equipment. Any ideas as to whaty I should get (brand and type of powder and caps). I have very little experince. I've only fired my friends modern muzzle loader a few times. Thanks __________________ When ye are in the service of your fellow beings, ye are only in the service of your God.

October 18, 2009, 05:46 PM	#17
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	Get Goex ffg black powder if you can. CCI caps work for me.

October 18, 2009, 06:19 PM	#18
bubba15301 Member Join Date: May 10, 2009 Location: pa Posts: 75	TC .45 They did make the hawken kit in .45 cal. I had one in flintlock

October 18, 2009, 06:21 PM	#19
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Goex makes a very good black powder. Schutzen is good also. Bench rest shooters consider Swiss black powder some of the best available but it costs quite a bit extra. Not every place sells real black powder due to the regulations regarding black powder. It has to be stored in a special powder magazine so the places that do sell it usually don't have it on display on the store shelves, they have to get a can of it from the back of the store. If you can't find real black powder, Pyrodex RS works quite well, makes just as much smoke, and doesn't smell all that different. It's harder to ignite so you may want to buy magnum caps. CCI makes the best percussion caps IMHO. Size 11 is what you need. .440 diameter round balls and .015 inch thick pillow ticking patches should work ok. Using an empty .30-30 shell for a powder measure is a good starting load if you don't wish to buy an adjustable powder measure. To clean the barrel after shooting, pull the wedge pin out of the forestock and lift the barrel up and out of the stock. Unscrew the nipple and put the back of the barrel into a bucket of water and use the ramrod with a cleaning patch to pump water into and out of the barrel and then oil the bore. The breech plugs in traditional style muzzleloaders are not meant to be removed by the user. Have fun.

October 20, 2009, 04:00 AM	#20
BigPapa4147 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 116	I went up to Dunham's yesterday and picked up a few odds and ends, would have gotten more, but as usual no one was behind the counter so I couldn't get a good look at the powder, primers or balls and after 10 mins of waiting, after I asked for help up front, I paid for what I had and left. Figured id go to gander mountain today, or if I have the time cabelas later this week. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the range next week. __________________ When ye are in the service of your fellow beings, ye are only in the service of your God.

October 21, 2009, 09:16 AM	#21
Beartrak Member Join Date: October 19, 2009 Posts: 31	The regulations on real BP are really stringent on the supplier. It must be kept in a magazine out of the public's reach. The magazine must have an inventory 'inside' and must be updated 'each' day. Every pound of powder sold must be logged out to the buyer and the inventory immediately updated. THEN, the inventory must be updated and logged at the close of business EACH day. Or, you can simply go to www.powderinc.com and order what you want. Just be ready for the five pound minimum order!

October 25, 2009, 12:34 AM	#23
BigPapa4147 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: Westland, MI Posts: 116	I've been reading through the manual on TC's website and it says to only use black powder or pyrodex. My friend told me I should use 777 powder because it's more consistant. My Hawken is from the 70s and I was wondering if 777 is safe to use. __________________ When ye are in the service of your fellow beings, ye are only in the service of your God.