.25-20 Winchester from 7.62 Nagant Brass

[Deltadart]

Is it possible to use 7.62 Nagant brass to form .32-20 Winchester brass and then form that brass into .25-20 Winchester brass? My question is, if possible to form the brass it appears the rim on the Nagant is not as thick as the Winchester rim so the head spacing would be off. Has anyone tried to do this operation?

[Scorch]

You can buy 32-20 brass, why try to do it the hard way?
https://www.starlinebrass.com/32-20-brass/

[Deltadart]

Scorch, they show out of stock and no backorders now for weeks. I have tried to call but no answer, have sent emails but no reply. I have been trying to find .25-20 Brass or .32-20 brass for 2 months all out of stock with no known delivery dates from Winchester, Remington, PPU, or Starline.

[BillM]

Try Top Brass. reloadingbrassusa.com
I could put 25-20 brass in my cart and it didn't kick to backorder---

[Recycled bullet]

Email these guys see what is the expected wait times.

https://www.diamondkbrass.com/.32-20WIN-100.html

[LeverGunFan]

Huntington Die Specialties apparently has 25-20 cases in stock - link

[stagpanther]

BillM...That relaodingbrassusa.com looks almost too good to be true. Done any orders through them?

[Deltadart]

Diamond brass had no idea when they would have inventory. The Reloading Brass USA had unfavorable reviews on some other sites so I was concerned about sending them over a 100.00 dollars for minimum order. Buffalo Arms who I usually deal with said they would place a back order for me, but they too said no idea when stock would be available. Huntington is showing stock at just above a 1.00 per case for brass that sold for 16.50 per 50. I suppose that is better than the +2.00 each for supposedly once fired brass on Gunbroker. That was the reason for my question on the 7.62 Nagant conversion. I know people use O rings on some .303 British brass to solve head space issues, however the difference on the .25-20 Win and Nagant is .016 for the rim thickness.

[Unclenick]

I clicked on the link to reloadingbrass.com, and my system's scam detector automatically interrupted the link. I suggest standing clear of them.

[Deltadart]

Yup!

[Unclenick]

To the OP's original question, the problem with the Nagent conversion is the Nagent rim is 0.040" thinner than the 32-20 rim, so your chamber headspace will be that much too big and will produce that much additional head clearance. It's enough that it could raise ignition reliability issues and would certainly tend to stretch cases toward head separation prematurely, even if the ignition was OK. You might get away with it if you used an 0.040" thick spacer to extend the Nagent rim for the first firing and then used neck-sizing-only for reloading thereafter, as that snug chamber fit might enable the tiny little case shoulder to act as the headspace determinant instead of the rim.

[Deltadart]

The information I have is the Nagant rim is .050 while the 25-20 rim is .065 so there is a difference of .015. That is enough to affect the headspace. Can not be that good for case life, however I do not know how much it will affect either. There is at least one company online selling the 7.62 brass from PPU converted to .25-20 Win. They do not address the issues of the rim, and as yet I have not had a reply to my email to them. The folks at Buffalo Arms said they sell the Nagant brass to people who do the conversion as well since .25-20 brass is very difficult to obtain and almost that bad with .32-20 or .218 Bee. So far I have not been able to find any information on the issues with the thickness of the rim or the smaller diameter regarding case life, headspace, ignition, extraction, or separation of the head. I did just receive some new PPU brass so I will be finding out in the next few days from my own testing. All of the loads will be cast 87 grain linotype and light charges of smokeless powder and some 15 gr 3F Swiss.

[Unclenick]

Sorry. I screwed up there. The difference is 0.4 mm at the CIP site, not 0.040" as I mistakenly wrote in post #11. So it's a difference of about 0.016" if the Nagent cases happen to have maximum tolerance rim thickness and the 32-30 chamber happens to be a minimum tolerance chamber. The rim tolerance is -0.25 mm, and the chamber headspace tolerance is +0.007", so the error grows to 0.0326" of excess headspace with a minimum tolerance Nagent rim in a maximum tolerance 32-20 chamber. The average would be 0.0252" of excess headspace. But even the 0.016" minimum excess headspace is more extra headspace than a field no-go gauge will allow, so the concerns remain.

[ballardw]

Is this for a new rifle? Or did the brass you had wear out? I know that some of the .25-20 I shoot is using 60 year old brass...

[Deltadart]

The rifle is a 1892 Winchester, mfg in 1917. The brass I have (50) is new old stock I had from 30 years ago when I had a 1893 Marlin. I sold that rifle and put some of the stuff in storage. I dug that out some time ago after I picked up the rifle.

[ballardw]

I've pretty much every box of .25-20 brass or ammo I've seen in the last 15 or so years. I am not short of storage space by any means. I think this totals 4 boxes of brass and two of factory ammo.

[RoyceP]

Originally Posted by BillM

Try Top Brass. reloadingbrassusa.com
I could put 25-20 brass in my cart and it didn't kick to backorder---

That looks like a spammer site. Look at the payment options - I am not going to use Zelle or crypto currency.

[Unclenick]

Top Brass is legit. Reloadingbrassusa.com has a lot of scam warnings about it.

[Deltadart]

Top Brass does not carry either .25-20 Winchester or the .32-20 Winchester brass.

[Unclenick]

The selection has varied over time. I think they are catch-as-catch-can regarding reconditioned brass and will process whatever they can get. For new brass, I don't recall anything but handgun chamberings, but I don't monitor them regularly.

[tangolima]

I think headspace consideration in a revolver is.different from other designs. Misfire is more of a concern than brass life. The pressure is too low for the brass to cling on the chamber. In fact the brass can't cling on the chamber. The donut on the ratchet can take that sort of beating. Instead the brass is supposed to slide back and "lean" on the frame.

The spent brass come out of the cylinder with a gentle pull of the extractor star. No primary extraction is needed. However it is different story if the same round is fired in a lever action rifle. More mechanical advantage is needed to extract the spent brass. Hmm... How does it work?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Deltadart]

It is a bit of work to do the operation, however I did successfully make .25-20 Winchester brass from the PPU 7.62 x 38 mm Nagant revolver brass. Only a few rounds fired in my 1892 Winchester due to the lack of small pistol primers for now.

[yober]

Well, my “scam detector” didn’t go off on reloadingbrass.com and I sent them money for some rare brass (.41 Special). I’m still awaiting my tracking number but I’m guessing that money’s gone. Seemed legit; I got invoicing and everything. A William Hitt answered a query from me, but my suspicion he is this “preacher” as he signed his name with “may God bless you more.”

https://m.facebook.com/pastorbill2

Seems to be associated with this “ministry” in Rancho Cucamonga (SoCal). Email also begins with hittpink — > William Hitt. Would love to know who else got scammed by this guy on other reloading sites.

[yober]

Just noticed another scam site has just popped up with the same web structure:

https://starlinebrassusa.com/

I notified Starline someone was using their good name. Hope they get nailed.

[44 AMP]

I think headspace consideration in a revolver is.different from other designs. Misfire is more of a concern than brass life. The pressure is too low for the brass to cling on the chamber. In fact the brass can't cling on the chamber. The donut on the ratchet can take that sort of beating. Instead the brass is supposed to slide back and "lean" on the frame.

Headspace consideration is the same in a revolver as anything else. For rimmed rounds, that the space the case rim fits into.

Reliable ignition is ALWAYS more important than case life. I can't think of any firearm design where reloading case life is a high priority, and can think of more than a few where it is of no concern at all. Reliable ignition, on the other hand is always a top priority.

Case pressure in revolver (and all other) rounds is not "too low for the brass to cling to the chamber and seal. That should be obvious, we don't get gas coming BACK at us

What makes the revolver unique is the fact that the cases are not held tightly in the chamber by a boltface /breechblock. The case is literally, free to move backward, until stopped by the recoil shield. And that is what happens. Primer ignites, powder burns, and as the pressure builds, (pushing in all directions) the case, being lighter than the bullet and having less inertia gets pushed back until stopped by the recoil shield. At that point the pressure can only push the case walls out so they seal against the chamber wall as the bullet begins moving forward.

As the bullet heads downrange, and the pressure drops, the natural elasticity of the brass results in it springing back away from the chamber walls so it will extract freely.

The spent brass come out of the cylinder with a gentle pull of the extractor star. No primary extraction is needed. However it is different story if the same round is fired in a lever action rifle. More mechanical advantage is needed to extract the spent brass. Hmm... How does it work?

Its not really a different story when a revolver round is fired in a lever action rifle. The case is still pushed back by the initial pressure build up, but since the bolt face is right up against it, there's no where for it to go, so it doesn't move, it just transfers the force to the boltface. The other difference is the slightly longer time it takes the bullet to clear the muzzle and vent the system pressure. Everything else is the same.

take a good look at the typical Marlin/Winchester type lever actions. They don't have "powerful primary extraction". Nothing like the camming action of a turnbolt rifle. Its not needed, even for the rifle rounds you find in those kinds of actions, and more than enough for lower pressure pistol rounds. Yes, the lever linkage does amplify the amount of force pulling the fired case out, but its also a necessity in order to operate the (relatively) "heavy" bolt mechanism.

Every system has a pressure limit within which it operates properly and when exceeded cases stick in the chamber, because they have been pressed HARD against the chamber walls and that extra "pressure hammer" reduces the effectiveness of the brass springing back. Run too much pressure in a lever gun, and despite its more "powerful" extraction cases WILL stick.

I know its frustrating when the brass you want isn't currently in the major supply chain outlets, and can't be easily made from brass that is available.

There is something you can do, but its time consuming costs a bit, and there's no guarantee of success. If you have the time, travel abit. Get away from larger towns and check out the small ones, especially the ones close to "hunting country", and visit the small "mom & pop" type stores, Gun shops (of course) but also Hardware stores, grocery/sundries stores even old gas stations. Places that were running before the Internet, and aren't chain franchises, etc..

Sometimes you can find some old, and odd ammo that's been sitting on one of their shelves for decades. If you get lucky you might find something you can use, and if you get REALLY lucky, they'll sell it to you for the price marked on the box!

My personal best score in that direction was I once found a 25rnd box of Winchester 12 ga 00 buck, in an old hardware store, which they happily sold me for the $4.95 price written on the box!

You MIGHT find a box of .25-20 at such a place. Wouldn't be cost effective to go looking just for that, but if something takes you near those kinds of places, taking the time to look might just pay off, though you do have to "kiss a LOT of frogs before you find a prince"