The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

View Poll Results: Is 4+1 rounds of 12 gauge enough for home defense duty?
Yes 10 52.63%
Probably, but I prefer more rounds 9 47.37%
No 0 0%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 29, 2018, 06:38 PM   #1
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,866
4+1: Enough?

Anyone run their home defense shotgun with the standard tube? On the Remington 870, that's 4 rounds of #1 buckshot for me:





I love the way the standard tubes with no extension balance and point. They just feel "right", and there is very little to go wrong with them. No problems with feeding due to extension junction points or the extension becoming bent/damaged in some fashion. I believe Dave McCracken was a fan of standard-length mag tubes on defensive shotguns as well, but don't quote me on that.

It's my choice, whether a box stock old school police 870 or a newer version with more "tactical" accessories like a Surefire forend, the 4+1 setup works for me.

But what about you? Do you think 4+1 is fine for home defense, or perhaps not? Please share your thoughts. Thanks gang!

M12
Model12Win is offline  
Old March 29, 2018, 07:20 PM   #2
Rangerrich99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2014
Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 976
For my specific purposes I think 5 rounds out of my shotgun is enough. I'm not going to clear the house with the things, after all. My HD shotgun is for when I'm "barricaded" in my safe room, with the door locked, everyone that's home in the walk-in closet behind me. If the BG comes through that door, from my position of concealment I mean to put 5 rounds of very nasty defensive 12 ga. shot into his torso in 3.5 seconds (about my average at the range). If he still wants to play, I'll turn 240 lbs. worth of dogs loose on him while I drop the shotgun and unholster the SIG.

If in the future, I thought I wanted to clear the house with it, I'd at least consider getting a longer tube for it.
Rangerrich99 is offline  
Old March 29, 2018, 07:25 PM   #3
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,860
if you stay holed up or hunkered down that's plenty. not too many bag guys can make it down a hallway to hurt you after they get hit with one load of 00 buckshot let alone 4+1.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old March 29, 2018, 08:11 PM   #4
Eazyeach
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2014
Posts: 633
I think it’s plenty. I have defensive shotguns, but I don’t really use them like that. I mostly blow up water jugs with mine so they have extended tubes.
Eazyeach is offline  
Old March 30, 2018, 06:07 AM   #5
ATN082268
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 798
The 4+1 capacity is probably enough for home defense until its not I'm sure it varies a lot based on location and other factors but the odds of home invasion seem fairly low for most people and I'd say a lot lower than that with regards to burning through more than 5 shotgun rounds in such an encounter. I don't think I'd be worried enough to buy another shotgun with greater capacity.
ATN082268 is offline  
Old March 30, 2018, 08:46 AM   #6
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 4,466
Quote:
I love the way the standard tubes with no extension balance and point. They just feel "right", and there is very little to go wrong with them. No problems with feeding due to extension junction points or the extension becoming bent/damaged in some fashion.
After proper fit, those are the most important characteristics; if the gun is poorly balanced and doesn't handle well, you won't shoot it as well.
__________________
FITASC: Fédération Internationale de Tir aux Armes Sportives de Chasse. http://www.fitasc.com/uk/home/view
FITASC is offline  
Old May 27, 2018, 09:00 PM   #7
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,866
I feel the same way. I would not be using it to ever clear my house, I've no children and no reason to. The information I've researched says it's never a good idea to go busting out with a gun just because someone's steeling the TV or whatever. Best to stay holed up in the bedroom.

I should also mention that I have Beretta 92A1 ready as well. I'd grab the shotgun time permitting, if they get through the bedroom door they might need to be stopped quickly and a load of buckshot gives me a better feeling than a 9mm round if things happen fast and I only get one shot off.
Model12Win is offline  
Old May 28, 2018, 02:55 PM   #8
kymasabe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 2,087
4+1 is plenty, especially if it buys you enough time to get to your rifle, or hi cap handgun.
__________________
God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.
kymasabe is offline  
Old May 28, 2018, 02:57 PM   #9
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,124
Sure.....and you can always have a Side Saddle or buttcuff with five more.....

Last edited by seeker_two; May 28, 2018 at 07:18 PM.
seeker_two is offline  
Old May 31, 2018, 01:50 PM   #10
propforce
Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2011
Posts: 58
Do you feel comfortable with a 6-shot revolver for home defense?

A 7~8 shot semi auto?

If the answer is "yes" above, then a shotgun with 4+1 is adequate for you.

If not....

4+1 is adequate as long as you master the "tactical reload" in a gun fight.
propforce is offline  
Old May 31, 2018, 02:52 PM   #11
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 4,466
Personally, I prefer to avoid the gunfights and would just get behind the bed, point that muzzle at the door while calling 911. My insurance covers theft of "stuff"
__________________
FITASC: Fédération Internationale de Tir aux Armes Sportives de Chasse. http://www.fitasc.com/uk/home/view
FITASC is offline  
Old May 31, 2018, 03:11 PM   #12
propforce
Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2011
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by FITASC View Post
Personally, I prefer to avoid the gunfights and would just get behind the bed, point that muzzle at the door while calling 911. My insurance covers theft of "stuff"
I hear ya.

That's why I buy my house in a safe neighborhood, put up "deterrence" such as well lit exteriors, secured locks, etc. Your plan of lock yourself in the bedroom along with family members then dial 911 is the best advice one can give to strangers.

But best plan goes FUBAR despite of good intention. You learned how to reload with your pistol, why not learn how to reload with shotguns?
propforce is offline  
Old May 31, 2018, 03:52 PM   #13
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,169
We could talk about means, averages and standard deviations for low probability events but I only have five fingers on each hand so slap a five round side saddle on that bad boy and call it good.
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old June 1, 2018, 11:39 AM   #14
amprecon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 1999
Location: TN
Posts: 755
I had put the two-round extended tube on my first 870 for awhile and didn't like it, went back to the standard capacity and put an 18" bbl on it to keep as an HD gun.
I eventually just bought the 7-round tactical 870 for HD and put the vent rib barrel and tube plug back on my first 870 to keep as my bird hunting gun.
They're affordable enough to have two.
I don't know if I'll ever need more than 4+1 for defensive use, but 6+1 is a little more reassuring.
__________________
"You can't get 'em all Josey."
"That's a fact".
"Well how come you doin' this then?"
"Cause I got nothin' better to do."
amprecon is offline  
Old June 1, 2018, 03:58 PM   #15
DukeConnor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2016
Posts: 128
Most likely zero rounds is enough for self defense, but in the rare case it is needed, i wouldn't feel under gunned with 4 rds of buckshot.
DukeConnor is offline  
Old June 1, 2018, 04:18 PM   #16
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 4,466
Quote:
I hear ya.

That's why I buy my house in a safe neighborhood, put up "deterrence" such as well lit exteriors, secured locks, etc. Your plan of lock yourself in the bedroom along with family members then dial 911 is the best advice one can give to strangers.

But best plan goes FUBAR despite of good intention. You learned how to reload with your pistol, why not learn how to reload with shotguns?
I agree with ya; my 500 has a side saddle with more ammo for JIC.

Another deterrent, if your climate zone allows, is planting thorny bushes like roses or blackberries under the windows. No one wants to try and get through those. Along with a pea gravel path along the sides (which no one can quietly walk on) and that should help.
__________________
FITASC: Fédération Internationale de Tir aux Armes Sportives de Chasse. http://www.fitasc.com/uk/home/view
FITASC is offline  
Old June 1, 2018, 05:55 PM   #17
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,413
I think in most cases you are probably ok but I would prefer to have more. I keep a Moss 500 20 gauge around that I have a 18.5" and 26" barrel for. I feel pretty good with 5+1 capacity but my go to is a M&P 9 with TLR-3 attached to it.
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 1, 2018, 08:30 PM   #18
jrothWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 2,292
Have standard field guns, with buckshot in the magazine and stock cuff, with extra rounds.

Plus an M1 Carbine with three fifteen rounders, for HD usage.
jrothWA is offline  
Old June 1, 2018, 09:44 PM   #19
1MoreFord
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2014
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 107
I'm too late for the poll but no, get an extended tube and one of those elastic shell holders for the stock.
1MoreFord is offline  
Old June 2, 2018, 07:15 AM   #20
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 2,954
I have hunted a lot with single shots and doubles, both side by side and O/U. Lots of times one or two is enough.

Sometimes 8 wouldn’t be enough, for that matter a whole box of 25.
jmorris is offline  
Old June 14, 2018, 11:21 PM   #21
westernrover
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2018
Posts: 4
There's that video of the armed alleged robber where the police confront him on the city bus (Dundalk, MD). During the gunfight, an officer runs five out spraying the bus with buckshot and tosses the gun because its empty. He resorts to his pistol (which he runs out also, but reloads with another magazine) and later downs the suspect at something like 35 yards.

I bring it up because five wasn't enough for that situation and tactic. Obviously, this wasn't HD, but it's not inconceivable that someone could choose a similar tactic in a HD scenario where they want to "spray" an adversary that is concealed. Some people think a "modern sporting" carbine with a 30 round magazine is better. Even if you don't have any better chance of scoring a hit, you could keep your adversary pinned down for longer.

I have noticed that extended magazine tubes full of shotshells change the swing on a gun, especially with 9. 7 in a 590 is not as bad as 9 in a 590A1 with the heavier barrel. A good alternative to those are the side saddle carriers or speed feed stocks. Those will give you 4 to 6 more.

I think it would be harder to be convinced you will need more than 5 without a few seconds here and there to add a couple to the magazine. A common tactic is: shoot two, load two. More than 5 on the gun seems reasonable, but they don't all have to be in the tube magazine.

As for the 35-yard shot, it would have been easier with a load of buckshot with a Flight Control wad than it was with a pistol. A saddle or speed feed stock can hold slugs too, but you'd have to have the forsight to load them before they're needed. The officer's duty gun had a large light on the lower rail. It seems like a red-dot sight would be a viable option for a duty or HD gun since they're not needing to be concealed, but a long gun has all the advantages.

For a gunfight through a bus from outside, a 5.56 carbine seems like a better tool, but if the fight was on the bus, the 12 ga. all the way.
westernrover is offline  
Old June 15, 2018, 08:42 AM   #22
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,506
I do not wish to be inflammatory here, but the fact will lead to truth only if someone is will be learn.

5 misses is never enough. In Vietnam the DOD figured that it took 820,000 MILLION rounds for every confirmed kill from all guns combined. From water, air and land.

So is a 820,000 not enough either?

The truth is that one round is enough per enemy, if you keep your cool.
Wyosmith is online now  
Old June 15, 2018, 01:46 PM   #23
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 5,200
Quote:
820,000 MILLION rounds for every confirmed kill from all guns combined
With that many I imagine you wouldn't even need to hit him as they would likely be buried alive and suffocate.

Sorry Wyo--couldn't help myself. Just kidding. I put an ATI extension on my 870--I think I can get a total of 8 or 9 2.75 inch magnums in.
__________________
I screw things up--so you don't have to.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; June 15, 2018 at 01:57 PM.
stagpanther is online now  
Old June 15, 2018, 02:18 PM   #24
cslinger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,564
Quote:
In Vietnam the DOD figured that it took 820,000 MILLION rounds for every confirmed kill from all guns combined.
Yeah but there is a marked difference between grabbing cover and returning fire at random muzzle flashes or puffs of smoke in the tree line 100 yards away using fire and maneuver techniques vs the tweaker and his buddy who kicked in your door and are 5 yards away.

More ammo is only bad if you are swimming or on fire but honestly 5 rounds of 12 gauge should be more then adequate for the VAST majority of real world confrontations.

(NOTE- This is in no way saying if you choose an AR with 30 round mag or a Glock 17 or a or a or a etc. that you are wrong, stupid, paranoid or anything remotely like that as folks tend to infer sometimes with these answers. It is ONLY to say that 5 rounds of 12 gauge is likely to be perfectly adequate if needed for self defense.........ok if you use a beltfed you might be a weeeee bit paranoid....I will call out using a GPMG as being overkill. )
__________________
"Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"
cslinger is online now  
Old June 15, 2018, 02:34 PM   #25
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,506
I agree with Cslinger, but these threads often ignore the basic truth.

100% of all rounds fired hit.

Something.

I have been to war and I know a lot about the subject of fighting. In a war zone it's not uncommon to assume that all rounds you fire that miss may hit something that is bad for the enemy and good for you.

In the civilian world (and in police work too) the opposite is true.

In the world we live in you are responsible for EVERY round you fire, so the idea of "firepower" is often misunderstood.

I have never thought I had too much ammo. But I have also been on missions that took weeks, and when we came back in we all still had some ammo left.

Only hits count. In war and in civilian life.

If you put a hole in a hut in a war zone you don't get sued. In the Vietnam war and all wars before that, if the enemy was fighting from a village and you open fire on that village you didn't get imprisoned for it. (Sadly you may today, but that's the fault of idiot or corrupt politicians)

Just remember All round do hit. It's up to the shooter what they hit.
Wyosmith is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15674 seconds with 10 queries