Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense

[Dfariswheel]

From the "For what it's worth Department":

Here's a nice picture of a birdshot wound on another forum.

Notice, the recipient ISN'T dead as a doornail.

http://www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ul...2;t=028290;p=0

My 2 cents worth of input is this:
I've never heard too many cases of people hit at close range with buckshot that weren't stopped instantly and/or killed on the spot.

I've heard many cases that were hit with birdshot that walked away from it, and/or kept fighting.

The great thing about America is, you're free to use depleted uranium or foam rubber, at your choice.

[WOD]

You ever see someone shoot at a game bird a little too fast and a little too close?

Yes I have been guilty of disentegrating birds, not really on game birds because I am not that fast but on starlings on slow dove and duck hunting days. I have shot them at about 10 feet and all you see are a puff of feathers like a magic trick.

I dont know Harley, but I understand his thinking. It is kind of Ironic that many of you are picking on him because he is emphasizing limiting collateral damage in a Home Defense situation. The gentleman criticizing Harley's thinking seem to disregard this fact in their argument. If I was fighting looting, raping, terrorizing thugs, then heck yeah I would grab the #00 buckshot so I can shoot through windows and cars 50yards away. The fact is we are talking about a home intrusion scenario in a neighborhood where I am loath to shoot a .22 pistol.

I am not a seasoned crime scene guru, but I have shot enough game with buckshot to know that even at close range, the majority of my game did not receive the full load, which means that the stray pellets could go into an unintended target. It is this fact I chose to use bird shot in the home. If I am errant enough to miss a man sized target at 20 feet with my bird shot, then the buckshot will settle it.

Each man to his own as far as this goes, but my decision for birdshot is based on my priority in a HD situation.

Number 1) Safety of my family
Number 2) Safety of innocents
Number 3) Taking picture and recording wound details from bad guy to guage effectiveness so that I may argue my points better on this forum.

[DHart]

This has been quite a little whirlwind here...

I can understand the choice to use birdshot in a close, heavily peopled living space, but it is a very compromised defense load, suitable only when necessary by circumstances. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

I'm no expert, but from what I know, I would say that a hot 12 ga. birdshot load at 7 feet or so to COM of a moderately built man (NOT wearing a heavy leather coat) would probably take out the bad guy right now... it's certainly quite capable of that under "just the right circumstances".

On the other hand, at twice that distance or more and given a heavy leather coat, winter clothing, bodybuilder or obese type of guy, there's no way I'd even think of trying to rely on birdshot. I can't imagine how Harley would want to RELY on that either, when the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of buckshot when the barriers get thicker and the distance longer.

So Harley loads up for defense use with birdshot expecting to be up against people who aren't heavily clothed or built and they appear inside his bedroom at less than 10' range. Chances are probably decent that his birdshot may stop the guy OK.

BUT, what does Harley do if he has to go outside to try and protect someone else who is being harmed by the big bad guy and the distance is 15' to 25' and the bad guy is big, heavy, cracked up, leather clad, whatever? The birdshot he expected to work well at 7' inside his bedroom is likely to fail miserably in stopping the perp under these difference circumstances.

On the other hand, if he had loaded with 12 ga. buckshot to begin with, it would be supremely effective at 7' inside the bedroom, and still very effective at 17' down the hall, and also very effective at 27'+ in the yard against little guys and big guys, lightly or heavily dressed, sober or all hopped up.

The buckshot is simply a more reliable defense load under a wide range of circumstances. I can't see why a reasonable person doesn't understand the wisdom in choosing buckshot for defense. It just makes the most sense because you never know what circumstances you will find yourself up against. And if I knew that behind the perp was a room containing an innocent person, I'd be as disinclined to shoot birdshot as anything else. A high collateral damage-risk background is just that, no matter what the weapon or load.

Signed,

another "12 ga. buckshot kind-of-guy".

[AAshooter]

DHart, nice summary.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi DHart,

Resonable? Well I laid down a scenario others want to convince me I am wrong. They arn't being resonable and I am not going to be resonable either.

I explained my scenerio and gave other scenarios and agreed with them (when they changed).

But under what I think the question that was asked, by the never seen again asker. Was my thoughts, still are. Up to 25 feet I still will go with #6s or 71/2s not enough difference to worry at that footage, 8yds +

Who asked for resonable? To reason is to give in or be acceptable to a majority decision. NOT. I am banking on my experience and know how and that is it.

Civilian is not police and never will be. Military the same. Resonable tell that to President Bush.
Add in more variables, change the question, throw in armor add 100 feet and I will adapt.
But regarding the question I stand by my thoughts.
How many times do I have to say 10 feet? Ten little feet? Or ten large feet?

No biggie, be resonable and agree with me... LOL

Harley

[DHart]

This discussion pretty much ran out two or three dozen posts ago.... I sure can't add anything useful beyond what's been said. It's time to go load up my Mossy 12 ga. "Persuader" for the night. With buckshot!

[Harley Quinn]

I like you, very resonable fellow.

Harley

[Rob96]

1 for charles etc. Well Charles I have more experience then the persons you paid to go see and get certs. I don't do that because I end up arguing with their own lack of knowledge. Did I say I was an expert, certified in a court of law numerous times.

I am going to have to go with Charles and say, lay out your experience. In your bio, you list your occupation as a carpenter, hardly matches up with ballistician, forensics, trama and such. Louis Awerbuck, who is probably one of the premier shotgun instructors, never wrote in any of my readings, to use #7 1/2. Just to give you a little story, a street that intersected mine had a little block party one summer. Things got out of hand and one neighbor went after the other in his home. This guy was 6'2" and at least 275#. He busted into the house and the homeowner nailed him in less than 10' with a load of 12gauge bird shot.The guy was hit right in the chest, and is alive today. I know you are saying that in this distance, the load should behave like a slug, but it doesn't. My Remmy is loaded with 00 buck.

[Harley Quinn]

I know lots of stories and they will always play to the side persons want others to believe their thought pattern.

Do yourself a favor do the test.

Harley

Edit: I just wanted to add this before you fire at the container (about 1 foot high and 8 inchs in dia-meter tightly closed with lid) Pattern your shooter as in find a 3x3 piece of cardboard and aim at it with a certain sight pattern you will try to duplicate and see where your shotgun and you shoot.

Most shotguns do not have front and rear sights so to be able to hit this with right on accuracy you need to make sure you know where it is hitting. I was using a bolt action slug gun, had front and rear sights, so I know where I was aiming.

While conducting these tests I have seen people actually miss and others just barely hit it, true.

It should have a back up as in sitting on a shelf and not being able to go anywhere have it solid. I used a 4x4 post and had shelves at different height. The container would sit against the 4x4 which had a 2x4 in front so I could replace it as it stared early on to disintegrate.

Remember have a tape measure and don't let your shotgun go in front of the line, don't stand on the line and then lean forward (you will then be 8' not 10')

H

Ps again, I know you won't do the test but I figured I would explain how I did mine and the parameters.

[leadcounsel]

Harley:

Your test(s) don't accurately replicate the penetration of various shotgun loads into a human wearing clothing for various reasons including:

1. Wood, banana peels, old tires, tennis balls and other junk don't replicate human skin, penetration, organs, etc.

2. By bracing your test material so it cannot move backward to absord some of the impact, you will necessarily get more and deeper penetration. A human will necessarily move backward from the impact of a bullet much like he would if you were to punch him in the chest. That backward movement absorbs a significant amount of kinetic energy and therefore reduces penetration. IF you don't understand this concept, try this test: First, shoot your shotgun from a standing position with nothing behind your shooting shoulder. Your shoulder moves backward to absorb the recoil. Next, brace your shoulder against a tree so it cannot move backward. Caution, this could cause serious damage to your body. However, it will illustrate that your test shooting target and penetration are skewed because they cannot move to absorb the recoil. Hence, you'll get deeper penetration.

3. Shooting birds and 60 pound animals cannot begin to replicate a NFL linebacker sized AGGRESSIVE assailant with the purpose of breaking into your house and robbing you, killing you, raping your wife, and molesting your kids. He could be an escaped felon from death row, or on PCP, or carrying a shotgun loaded with slugs. While you're busy waiting for him to get within range and a clear shot, he's firing his stolen .45 through walls and doors trying to kill you once he sees you've produced a shotgun.

I genuinely think, and have backed up my belief with numerous data (as well as the others here that agree) that birdshot has extremely limited application for self defense, in that it would only have any real affect on a BG that is BOTH very close in range AND not wearing any heavy clothing. Conversely, buckshot is much more effective at close and medium range. You may think of scenarios where you are able to engage at close ranges and shoot multiple times, but unfortunately you won't be in control of those scenarios and how they play out. For instance, if the BG is in your home with a handgun and you engage in a gunfight where you are both taking cover. He will win 9 times out of 10 because (1) he's more likely to score a hit due to barrier penetration and (2) his hit with most handgun calibers will likely be immediately more life threatening than any pellet hits you score. And the BG won't care about overpenetration.

[claude783]

Well Mr. Quinn:

I agree with you. There is no doubt in my mind that a shotgun fired with birdshot at 10 feet or under is going to disintergrate the Gremlin!

I would think any bird hunter who has shot phesant and not allowed them to get a little distance before busting them, would agree. If you don't let the bird get out a little bit, your not going to have anything left to eat.

For the home, birdshot will do just fine...if your going out into the driveway and shooting 50-60 feet, then buck shot is preferred...however, we have been talking about in the HOUSE, distances of 10 feet...even at 50 or 60 a shotgun blast to the face with birdshot will (most likely) take both eyes out...

[Harley Quinn]

This item we are shooting at weighs about 10 pounds.

NOT as big as a human who by the time he is hit and moving backwards has absorbed the shot and most of the energy.

So strap it down...

You don't care that it over penetrates do you? Well part of this scenerio is doing harm to the BG and not others, stick with the question and within 10'.

Lead you are a funny guy, I did not mention bananas, tires or some of the other things you are trying to enter into the picture. For someone who works
(supposedly) in very controlled and articulate enviroments you like to get into other areas and quick. Ps. I don't believe you are who you say you are, based on that alone. You are trying to convince me of what you say. Do the test LOL

Harley

[leadcounsel]

Claude:

Head shots are not advised for novices because they are harder to score hits. If Harley is concerned about missing and overpenetration so much, center mass shots are advised.

In the effective range of birdshot, any miss will likely not allow time for a followup shot if the attacker rushes and tries to overtake the shooter. Even a hit will allow the attacker to maintain his feet and rush the shooter. More take down is necessary. Look to buckshot.

[leadcounsel]

Quinn:
"NOT as big as a human who by the time he is hit and moving backwards has absorbed the shot and most of the energy."

Exactly my point and exactly why birdshot ain't gonna be reliable or effective.

Your test doesn't replicate a human target in any way. You and this discussion are a waste of time.

[Soybomb]

Harley, I'm curious if you load frangible bullets in your pistols?

Summary from the internet of 2 articles:
[1] Performance of the Winchester 9mm 147gr Subsonic Jacketed Hollowpoint Bullet in Human Tissue and Tissue Simulant, Wolberg, Eugene J., International Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 1, Winter 1991.
[2] The Ideal Police Bullet, Fackler, Martin L., Internal Security ( Supplement to IDR 11/1990 ).

THE HEART AND MAJOR BLOOD VESSELS ARE THE VITAL STRUCTURES OF THE TORSO. These structures can be over 20cm/7.8in deep from some angles. Both arms are often in front of the torso ( holding a handgun ) during armed encounters, so that a well placed shot may have to pass through an arm before hitting the torso. The bullet needs sufficient potential to do that and still penetrate the body deeply enough to disrupt vital structures. In the FBI Miami incident, Agent Dove fired what would have been a perfect shot, but his high-speed 115gr 9mm bullet did not have enough penetration potential (reference to a figure showing penetration depth of said bullet to be about 20cm/7.8inches ). ... Agent Dove and Grogan lost their lives because of this bullet failure, and five other agents were wounded.
------------------
With that said no one is changing anyone's mind I'm sure, but because in some situations you may be able to reach part of the heart 1" in, I wouldn't count on always being able to do so. If the FBI feels like they need 12"+ of penetration to be safe against clothing, extended arms, and angles, I'll believe them before I believe any rigged test I could do at home.

[Harley Quinn]

Head shot????

What he is explaining is that at 60 feet the pattern is going to grow and thus more likley to hit more then the concentrated area at 10'. Read the response and quite adding these would be things.

Actually Head shots have always been recommended but the public does not like that thought nor the courts thinking you are nothing but a bunch of killers.
So the pat answer is trying to immobilize the suspect not to kill (I shot to stop the suspect your honor). Next location is the guts and lower groin, why? Because behind that soft tissue is the spine and pelvis, Knocks um down to the ground when hitting that bone.

Ever heard the nasty saying 'gut shoot UM'... Sure the upper torso is good also but as you are drawing and firing you had better be shooting the legs first and then the gut and then you are on target, shoot more carefully. You need to attend a real group of shoot out guys and quit mynabirding these cert dudes who are only doing it to make money off of wannabees.

Sounds better to these monday morning quarterbacks and wimps when you say I shot to stop sir. Not to forget the @#$%% Lawyers who have turned this country into a bunch of criminal terrorists, who make people in a free country afraid to go out on the town and have a good time on friday night.

PS You are not a police officer you are a citizen and protecting your house at 10'...Geez

What is rigged is the tests so the public will think we are not out there to kill bad Guys. Ever seen the movie "Extreme Justice" Rent It.

Harley
Semper Fi
114

[AAshooter]

There are lots of spots in my home that exceed 10' (not to mention on my property). Given a bad guy with a knife is a serious threat at 21', I hope to solve the problem well before they reach the 10' line.

00 buck for me.

[Rob96]

Do yourself a favor do the test.

Do yourself a favor and post your background and what makes you so knowledgable besides your irrelevant backyard test. Shooting sticks isn't going to tell me jack about what a given load is going to do with a human that has elastic skin and tissue, unknow thinckness of fat layer and so forth. Just like shooting a pheasant isn't going to tell me what it is going to do to a 275# bad guy that wants to do me harm. Going by your theory of shooting sticks, the same should apply to the steel plate I shot this morning with 12gauge lead slugs. Plate weighs around 5lbs and went spinning in the air, so that must mean the guy will go spinning in the air. That is as bad as someone saying, hit them in the arm with a 45acp and it'll knock them on their backside.

[DHart]

AA... same here... there are a lot of areas in my home where I would have 20 to 25' range and YES, I want to keep the perps from even getting that close to me! No birdshot for me.

[Harley Quinn]

No, I won't post my background.

If you can not tell by my posts that I know what I am talking about for the scenerio indicated, my background would not help either.

A piece of steel plate where did that come from? By the way a piece of 3/16s weighs about 7 pounds a square foot.

If you are able to break that down you will be able to figure out how heavy all the plate steel thickness weigh, for a square foot.

But given your thoughts on this thread of 10' in a house with your loved ones etc. etc. and collateral damage does not concern you etc. etc. You will want to tell me how much angle Iron weighs when it is not in the equasion.

Edit: Now you are shooting them outside your front door and through it no less.LOL Oh well......

No Mas

Harley

[Rob96]

No, I won't post my background.

Well then what you say has no relevance. Your theory and back yard tests do not mirror documented real life incidents, and contradicts what every professional shotgun instructor teaches. You may be a hell of a carpenter, but ballisticaian you are not.

[leadcounsel]

Quinn is a carpenter that likes shooting buckets with wood, jello,and tennis balls thinking that it is identical to shooting an attacker. I think that speaks for itself everyone.

As far as distances, I have to agree that there are many areas in my house that exceed 10 feet. The hallway from my bedroom to front door is 20', for instance.

Birdshot will not penetrate a steel door, but buckshot will. See www.theboxotruth.com for a test case. At 20' from my bedroom door to the front door, if the perp were to enter, the birdshot would be uselessly ineffective, and the perp could take cover behind the steel door when I shoot when he gains access and charge at me or shoot at me after my first shot.

[roy reali]

I bet if a wrongful death/injury attorney is reading some of these replies they would be salivating. There kid's college funding would be secure.

[Soybomb]

You can only worry so much about a law suit, I worry more about making sure I make it to the next morning. My shotgun is short and black and scary and says Police on the side. What goes in the magazine is the same as what the police put in theirs. If an attorney wants to say I'm a killer just waiting for his chance because I chose the rounds they did because they would be sure to stop a man I'm prepared for that. I'm not a hunter, and not going to keep a hunting shotgun and rounds around. The police have chosen what they feel is appropriate to protect themselves, and so did I, it just so happens we picked the same thing.

[Harley Quinn]

For all you wannabees and persons who think I am just a disillusioned carpenter that is fine I can live with that.
I can also live with the fact that I stuck to the topic on hand as the poster requested.

Sticks and stones will break your bones but names will never penetrate this old bird.

Harley
Semper Fi
114
No more clues.


Edit
ps Lead, I sent you a PM not an e-mail, c you are wrong on that one also.