The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 15, 2018, 10:21 PM   #26
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,482
On deer and elk I have seen more "bang-flops" with my 270s then any other caliber. Why?
I don't really know. I have a theory, but it's just a theory. But that's what I have seen from 50+ years of hunting and guiding. What I have seen is fact, not theroy.

I also own and use a 25-06 at times, and I have found the Sierra bullets can sometimes be a bit erratic with they hit, turning off course inside the deer quite often. Burgers also are erratic. I have seen the same thing with Hornady and Speer bullets too, but less often.

Oddly the Hollow Point Sierras are BETTER then their boat tailed lead tipped "game kings" and penetrate straighter and deeper. That sounds exactly backwards of what I would have guessed, but that what I have seen. I may get called crazy ---- but I have seen it several times.

The bullets that seem to drop deer the fastest from my 25-06 are the Nosler Partitions and the Hornady and Nosler bonded bullets.
Wyosmith is offline  
Old September 16, 2018, 12:56 AM   #27
mccraggen
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2017
Posts: 13
I feel like I have learnt a lot with this discussion, fyi the red deer buck we shot would have been around 180 kilo so close to 400 pound!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mccraggen is offline  
Old September 16, 2018, 07:20 AM   #28
Mobuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,158
"Oddly the Hollow Point Sierras are BETTER then their boat tailed lead tipped "game kings" and penetrate straighter and deeper. That sounds exactly backwards of what I would have guessed, but that what I have seen."

In preparation for a Buckmasters sponsored handicapped youth hunt,I loaded some .257 HP Gamekings at a starting load level for use on big northern Wisconsin bucks.
Prior to that hunt, I killed three Midwestern whitetails at home to ensure the suitability of this bullet/load. The .257 90 grain BTHP Gamekings @ 2750 fps MV did a fine job at the limited range we needed.
The smaller local doe deer 100-150 yard hits showed full penetration with modest but adequate expansion. The 250+# Wisconsin buck hit @ 50 yards was dead on his feet when the little bullet took the top off his heart. Expanded bullet was found under the hide on the off side.
I've killed several deer using a 22/250 loaded with Sierra 55 grain BTHP "game bullets". Penetration was adequate but not pass through but what does one expect from a 55 grain bullet @ 3400 fps MV hitting a 150# deer @ 150 yards.
Mobuck is offline  
Old September 16, 2018, 08:48 AM   #29
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,493
The brain shot is the most difficult and risky shot, because deer move their heads to look around and it's easy to hit them in the snout/jaw by mistake. Then, you have a situation where the deer runs off and dies from starvation because it can't eat.

Shoulder shot is the best for me. Lung shot is deadly, but may let the deer run off over a hundred yards, if a bit high. The high lung shot doesn't leave much blood for the first 30 yards or more, so it's difficult to follow in tight evergreens, etc.

Heart shot and they almost always go about 80 yards before they drop. The only good thing about it is that they often leave a good blood trail to follow.
Picher is offline  
Old September 16, 2018, 12:19 PM   #30
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,296
I agrees, light and fast works best for thin skinned, easily killed critters like deer. The only exception being where open spaces might require very long shots (300+ yards) in wind.
I love the performance of the Barbes TTSX bullets. They often are made lighter than any other bullet available. I use 80gr in .243 and 110gr in 7mm and .30-06. They make 80gr in .257 so that’s what I’d use there too.

Generally speaking, most all modern cartridges will fire the light TTSX bullets between 3,250-3,600 FPS. The .25-06 is listed over 3,800. I guarantee that would be incredibly effective.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old September 16, 2018, 08:28 PM   #31
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 11,859
Quote:
Why is it many who buy a fast stepping cartridge automatically shoot the heaviest bullet weights available on all size of animals?_??
Oh, there are a whole lot of reasons why people opt to go heavy with fast or slow moving cartridges, often heavier than they need. I will sum them up by saying there seems to be a prevailing fear of insufficiency in the gun world, which translates to ballistics as well. You never want to undershoot an animal, not do enough damage. Bigger is better. More is better. You can fail to kill with going too small, but you can't really overkill. Its all perception.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old September 17, 2018, 08:27 PM   #32
Dano4734
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2014
Posts: 393
Hunted white tail all my life. I blew the heart out of one and it still made it 75 yards. They are sometimes really impressive even after they are walking dead
Dano4734 is offline  
Old September 18, 2018, 09:18 AM   #33
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 1,411
Heart shot deer will occasionally go into --- what is called --- a "death run," traveling at running pace that will sometimes cover 100 yards.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell
Erno86 is offline  
Old September 18, 2018, 11:30 AM   #34
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,508
I have not hunted deer, but why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head? I imagine it would be pretty easy to either damage the spine, major arteries, or wind pipe, especially with expanding bullets. There isn't nearly as much muscle there compared to the shoulders so penetration should be easy. Is it because it is a smaller target to hit, where it could injure the animal rather than kill it?
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old September 18, 2018, 12:48 PM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
I have not hunted deer, but why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head? I imagine it would be pretty easy to either damage the spine, major arteries, or wind pipe, especially with expanding bullets. There isn't nearly as much muscle there compared to the shoulders so penetration should be easy. Is it because it is a smaller target to hit, where it could injure the animal rather than kill it?
It's a small target that moves almost as much as the head and, frankly, is entirely unnecessary 99% of the time.

For the VAST majority of hunters, a dead-center lung shot will be perfectly adequate the VAST majority of the time. Truth be told, aiming anywhere else is almost entirely a matter of personal preference. The types of scenarios that necessitate any other aim point are in the tiny minority.

Deer are relatively small, thin-skinned, light-boned animals. Even with cartridges as small as .223/556, penetration with a reasonable bullet choice is a non-factor. Step up to a .243Win and monolithic (Barnes TTSX) bullets and you can penetrate 3-4 feet in a deer, through bone as large as a hip joint.

Most discussion of aim points and bullet or cartridge choice on animals like whitetail deer are almost entirely academic.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old September 18, 2018, 01:05 PM   #36
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,508
Quote:
It's a small target that moves almost as much as the head and, frankly, is entirely unnecessary 99% of the time.

For the VAST majority of hunters, a dead-center lung shot will be perfectly adequate the VAST majority of the time. Truth be told, aiming anywhere else is almost entirely a matter of personal preference. The types of scenarios that necessitate any other aim point are in the tiny minority.

Deer are relatively small, thin-skinned, light-boned animals. Even with cartridges as small as .223/556, penetration with a reasonable bullet choice is a non-factor. Step up to a .243Win and monolithic (Barnes TTSX) bullets and you can penetrate 3-4 feet in a deer, through bone as large as a hip joint.

Most discussion of aim points and bullet or cartridge choice on animals like whitetail deer are almost entirely academic.
Hi Brian,
If you were in a survival situation in the wilderness and only had a handgun (let's say 9 mm) with hollow points, would you still say lung shot or would you point of aim change? What animal could you take with a 9mm? Could you take a wild hog with a head shot? I know it is probably not humane, but this would be for a crap hits the fan scenario.

My buddies did a multi-day canoe trip through the Everglades. Say they flipped and lost their food, but were carrying a sidearm. What could they hunt for food?
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old September 18, 2018, 02:12 PM   #37
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
Hi Brian,
If you were in a survival situation in the wilderness and only had a handgun (let's say 9 mm) with hollow points, would you still say lung shot or would you point of aim change? What animal could you take with a 9mm? Could you take a wild hog with a head shot? I know it is probably not humane, but this would be for a crap hits the fan scenario.

My buddies did a multi-day canoe trip through the Everglades. Say they flipped and lost their food, but were carrying a sidearm. What could they hunt for food?
I have intentionally hunted deer (never got a shot) with my Glock 33 in .357sig. Considering that my 25 yard groups with the Glock are probably 4x the size of my 100 yard groups with a rifle, you can bet I'm taking a lung shot. I'd have to be a whole lot better with a handgun to even consider any other location. 9mm is considered by anyone who knows to be a viable self defense round. If it can kill a 200 lb aggressive human, you can bet it can kill a deer, which most likely weighs 90-120lbs... or even less in Florida.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old September 19, 2018, 07:11 PM   #38
gw44
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2015
Location: Michigan
Posts: 148
My son has used a 25.06 for years, some times we track but most of the time we don't !!
gw44 is offline  
Old September 20, 2018, 10:28 PM   #39
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 2,482
Got a bang/Flop today. weird bullet wound, but I hit the neck bones so the kill was instantaneous. I used my Mannlicher 6.5X54, which I made up from an old Breda action that had a rusted and bent barrel. I made a new stock, new barrel and mostly all new everything else, but I think it came out well.
The bullet was a 160 grain Sierra at 2200 FPS. I shot this small Antelope Buck at 177 yards. He is laying in a gully as you can see, and he lifted his head and saw me before I got as close as I wanted to get, but I was down low enough to get steady and solid, so I shot him.

The bullet blew out a large hole right in the front of the neck only about 2-1/2 inches from when it entered. Could have been bullet fragments and bone too. You can see some of it in the 2nd pictures right next to the entry wound. He was nearly sideways to me when I shot, but something turned 90 degrees and exited the front of his throat.
There was an exit on the opposite side about as big as a 50 cent piece, and about 1" from that was an round hole about like one that is made with a 9MM Pistol. Weird. But I see that kind of thing from Sierras not all that infrequently.

My old Mannlicher will not feed spitzers at all. Nothing but round noses. Sierra quit making them (I have only 22 left) I do have about 300 Hornady 160 grain RN bullets and I may try them next time. They seem to shoot just as well. I got 500 PPU 156 grain RN bullet, but I have not used any yet. Anyone out there have any experience with them?

2018 #1 Ant. Buck by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
2018 #1 Ant. Buck 2 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
Wyosmith is offline  
Old September 20, 2018, 11:37 PM   #40
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,535
Quote:
why don't more people aim for the neck, just below the head?
Its ballzy shooting many hunters won't chance. Gambling a miss garners his quarry goes free. Hunter makes the shot. The shooters reward? _ a 100% undamaged carcass.

Now some timid individuals would preach such shooting is unethical. Me~ I don't think some other having {marksman like} shooting skills are unethical. "For me and those other woodsy sharpshooters >" It's the only way!"
__________________
"JUST A OLD DEPLORABLE THAT'S IRREDEMABLE."
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old September 21, 2018, 05:12 AM   #41
sako2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2009
Posts: 255
nice job Wyo. Congrats on the goat.
sako2 is offline  
Old September 21, 2018, 09:12 AM   #42
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 1,411
stephen426 -


If you neck shoot a deer that hits the spinal column...there's a chance that it'll paralyze the critter. Shoot it again in the same bullet entrance hole too finish him off: The second bullet will possibly have no effect on the deer's mortality.
It's a sad hunting event...when I have to finish off a deer or other critter, that's been paralyzed from a GSW (gun shot wound) or a hunting arrow.

There's a chance that a neck shot will only hit the windpipe or just neck meat, thus bringing the possibility of a long tracking job.

If you plan to have the deer head & shoulder mounted...the taxidermist might need to possibly sew up the bullet hole.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell
Erno86 is offline  
Old September 21, 2018, 10:45 AM   #43
pete2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,753
First deer I shot that ran ran 50 yards, I threw another shot at him, missed. He folded up on the run dead. The bullet had literally blown up his heart. This was with a .243 but I've also had them run with the .270 but they do fall down faster as a rule. I like a lung shot better than heart. Thru the shoulders will pretty much anchor them if you need to. They usually go down within 25 yards or so but don't be surprised when the run when shot thru the rib cage(boilerworks as an old hunting partner called it).
pete2 is offline  
Old September 21, 2018, 10:47 AM   #44
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 11,859
Quote:
There's a chance that a neck shot will only hit the windpipe or just neck meat, thus bringing the possibility of a long tracking job.
On hogs, people like to make "behind the ear" shots. Unfortunately, behind the ear sometimes translates into "above the spine and hitting nothing but skin and muscle." Over the years, I have shot two hogs that had healed/mostly healed behind the ear shots. I have also managed to lose and seen lost hogs with "behind the ear shots."

Now when I make such a shot, I prefer the animal to be quartered such that the bullet enters behind the ear and then travels either into the the head or into the chest, that way if there is no direct spine involvement, there is secondary CNS brain damage or boilerroom chest damage.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old September 21, 2018, 11:17 AM   #45
Savage99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Posts: 567
My deer hunting has primarily been in the forests of New England. I shoot and hit running deer with my .358 Win 200 gr Silver tips. they don't go far.

I aim for the heart/lung area because it's easier to hit.

Last edited by Savage99; September 21, 2018 at 03:15 PM.
Savage99 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09265 seconds with 9 queries