Experience with LaserLyte trainers?

[OhioGuy]

These look pretty useful...the ability to use my real gun and see where my shots would land would be helpful and make dry fire practice a little more interesting, I'd think...

Who has experience with LaserLyte lasers and targets, and what would you recommend for effective training and also some fun?

I have a 9mm pistol, and they have three products that would work with it:

http://www.laserlyte.com/products/sight-lyteryder
This one is a combined laser sight and trainer that acts as both real laser sight, and can also fire pulses when the trigger is pulled. Mounts to any Picatinny rail. Needs to be zeroed in but otherwise seems simple enough...

http://www.laserlyte.com/products/trainer-pistol-pre
This one just inserts directly into the barrel of the gun and sticks out the end. Pull the trigger, get a pulse. Seems like the only one that would work with a revolver, but that's not my interest right now.

http://www.laserlyte.com/products/trainer-lt-cartridge
This is a cartridge that loads into the chamber and fires when struck with the firing pin. It's caliber-specific.

They're all priced within a few $ of each other, around $120 MSRP. Somehow the drop-in cartridge seems (intuitively?) like it would be the most accurate, since it will always aim directly down the barrel and wouldn't shift around. The laser sight combo would rely on my ability to properly zero in the sight, and I've heard of laser sights losing their zero over time...at any rate, adds a bit more uncertainty.

Then there are the targets...pricier but I would think I'd need one that shows where the shots land, or else I'll always be looking at the wall instead of the sights when I'm firing. They also have little simulated steel targets that just show whether you've hit them or not. Their bigger "Score Time" target calculates scores, etc. but looks like the value there would be fun and the ability to make a game of it.

At some point I may look at getting their plastic trainer pistols, just so I can get my kids involved and help them learn real gun safety and handling, at home, while also having some fun with it.

Thoughts? Experiences? Any "this made me a better shot," or "I spent $400 on this junk and it never worked right" stories?

[g.willikers]

Anything that gives good feedback is useful for practice.
I prefer modern blowback airguns because it's not always possible to notice where the laser is showing the hits, especially if you're moving and shooting.
Actual holes in targets is more better.
But I also have a laser gizmo for when I'm too lazy to set up targets.
And it definitely helps with developing point shooting skills.
Trigger time is trigger time.

[ShootistPRS]

I have always used a mirror but then I started training back when lasers were a very new technology. Dry fire practice with mirrors and live fire practice with multiple targets from varying positions and at different angles of attack.

[DMK]

I use a Laserlyte 9mm cartridge with my CZ75 PCR for practice. The CZ75 has a DA/SA trigger so I don't have to rack the slide to reset the trigger. I can just pull the trigger and 'fire' the laser every time. Using a double action is the key to this working for me.

I also purchased a cheap webcam (Logitech C270) and found free software online (SharpSpotter) to detect the shots. Putting all this together with my laptop and some large silhouette targets, I setup a laser range in my garage.

I initially did this to practice drawing from concealment and firing a defensive shot in a safe way. However, I've found it also a great way to practice drawing and shooting from my car, using cover, shooting while moving, using a flashlight and engaging multiple targets in close quarters. These are things I can't do safely or can't do at all on my local public range. All done with an actual gun and holster that I carry often and the same exact sight picture I'd see with live fire.

So for me, this is way more valuable than just dry fire practice with snap caps.

You can get an idea of the concept here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_IuEbsjzmQ

For simplicity but more expense, you can buy Laserlytes's targets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc8Bq3PqwwE

[OhioGuy]

I use a Laserlyte 9mm cartridge with my CZ75 PCR for practice. The CZ75 has a DA/SA trigger so I don't have to rack the slide to reset the trigger. I can just pull the trigger and 'fire' the laser every time. Using a double action is the key to this working for me.

I hadn't even thought about that. I guess I'm used to having to reset the striker every time I dry fire, but since I can get one of their plastic training guns for not much more than I'd pay for the cartridge, maybe it's worth it just so I don't have the hassle between shots.

I found a kit containing the pistol and their standard laser target on Amazon for only $200, which is (I think) $150 less than they've advertised on their LaserLyte website.

[DMK]

I found a kit containing the pistol and their standard laser target on Amazon for only $200, which is (I think) $150 less than they've advertised on their LaserLyte website.

That's a pretty good solution if you don't have a pistol with DA. SIRT also has a laser training pistol, though I believe it is more expensive.

Do some searching and carefully examine all the reviews on whatever you buy. I remember reading some fairly sour reviews which led me to use my actual gun instead of investing considerable money in a "blue gun" laser trainer and IWB holster for it.

Of course, using an actual gun requires more careful attention to safety and taking extra precautions to prevent live ammo from getting into the training area. Same as dry firing.

[Mobuck]

My thoughts on the "blue gun" trainer. The feel and handling won't be anything like your carry pistol in 90% of the cases.

[OhioGuy]

Well, I ordered that kit on Amazon for $200. $175 is the list price of the laser target itself, so I'm effectively getting the laser trainer "blue gun" for $25. What's the worst that can happen? I'll see how that works, and may choose to get the 9mm insert cartridge to allow me to train with my actual pistols.

[DMK]

Well, I ordered that kit on Amazon for $200. $175 is the list price of the laser target itself, so I'm effectively getting the laser trainer "blue gun" for $25. What's the worst that can happen? I'll see how that works, and may choose to get the 9mm insert cartridge to allow me to train with my actual pistols.

Good luck with it. After you test it out a bit, post here and let us know how it's working for you.

I can see some scenarios where this would be better that an actual firearm if it feels and handles like a real gun sight picture and trigger wise.

[DMK]

BTW, this is the free laser training software that I use with my Windows laptop:

http://northosoft.com/sharpspotter/HTML/index.html


And this cheap Logitech C270 webcam to view the targets and 'see' the shots.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[EchoBravo]

Some other good free laser training software:

ShootOFF

HomeLESS

[BigMikey76]

I have been thinking about this, as well. Yankee Marshal has a recent video out about the Mantis X trainer. It works with anything that has a rail, and it gives feedback through a smart phone app. It even analyzes what it thinks you are doing wrong during your dry fire sessions. It also doesn't require any special targets; you just aim it at whatever you would usually aim at during your dry firing. I still want to do a bit more research before I spend money on it, but it looks like a pretty neat tool.

[DMK]

Mantis X looks like it would be a great tool for analysis of your technique at the live fire range. I think I'm going to get one for that alone.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...aining-system/


(It's not a laser system at all BTW, but appears to work on detecting the movement of the gun via accelerometer sensors)


.

[Art Eatman]

Due to physical limitations I shifted to a S&W 642CT as a carry gun. So, dry-fire practice with the laser is easy.

I bought a LaserLyte set of grips for my NAA mouse gun. Same deal.

[OhioGuy]

Well, my LaserLyte trainer arrived today! I got the combo of the "QuickTyme" target and the full-size trainer pistol. I have to say, after about 200 "rounds" tonight (yeah, I'm going overboard ) I'm fairly impressed and see this as a valuable tool.

The target itself is just under 5" in diameter, so it's large enough to aim at from across the house. The main target area has two small targets below it that act as buttons, one for either displaying your shots or starting a timer, and the other for resetting the target and/or resetting the timer.

Here's the target with the pistol (small "button" targets not visible here):



It works in two modes. The basic mode just lets you shoot away, then displays the shots in the order in which they landed, when you shoot the bottom-left circle:



The other mode is timed. You kick off a 5 second timer by shooting the bottom-left circle, and then it times you to 10ths of a second until your shot lands. So you can practice drawing and shooting, simulate a surprise attack, or whatever you want. You have to be quick to get the gun holstered in the few seconds before the timer starts running. I might use a second laser pointer just to start the timer.

The performance is actually pretty good! It's reasonably precise in showing where your shots hit. The target has two flukes, but they're minor. The first is that it doesn't work in direct lighting, so it has to be slightly dim. This makes it harder to see the target while aiming, but I guess it makes you practice in lower lighting too. The second is that it can register multiple hits if the laser flash sweeps across the target. If you shoot 10 times, and it flashes 13 hits, then you know you got sloppy on the trigger pull! If you hit the same spot twice, it displays only one hit but it flashes to show multiple.

The pistol was pretty good out of the box. It's weighted like an unloaded gun. The design is a mishmash of real pistols. It's shaped and angled almost exactly like a Glock 19, while the curvature of the trigger reminds me of an M&P.



The 3-dot sights are pretty standard and generic, but very visible and very usable.



As best I could tell, out of the box it shot slightly left consistently. Easily fixed using a tiny allen wrench provided. It's a bit of guesswork, as there's no discernible click when you turn the key, but I got it adjusted. Elevation is accurate, with the dot hitting the wall just above the front post as it should.

Trigger pull is actually pretty realistic. I'd have to guess it's around 7lb....? It has a long travel but a fairly crisp break, and no reset until you've extended all the way back. That doesn't bother me since I see little value in trying to shoot rapidly without recoil.

I'd rate the laser pistol pretty highly. I think it's realistic enough to represent just about any typical compact-ish gun in the G19 size range. They make a compact model with dimensions very similar to the Shield. I don't think I'd need to get that. I may eventually get a laser cartridge to use in my actual gun. I don't know how necessary that will be. I will keep playing with it!

I went nuts on my first night with it, but really, if I practice 100 shots 3 times a week, that's the equivalent of $75 worth of 9mm ammo! In that sense it pays for itself in less than two months.

I fear it's also a money trap, because they make all sorts of other nifty little targets that you can spread all over the house!

[DMK]

Thanks for coming back with the review OhioGuy.

I was wondering how that pistol was. It sounds like it's better that I thought. I underestimated it since it's so much cheaper than the SIRT gun.

The target has two flukes, but they're minor. The first is that it doesn't work in direct lighting, so it has to be slightly dim. This makes it harder to see the target while aiming, but I guess it makes you practice in lower lighting too.

I've noticed that's a tricky part with setting up the Sharpspotter software using the webcam. It has sensitivity adjustments in the software and will actually auto adjust, but it needs a dim room and any reflections on glass or shiny metal will trigger false hit detection.

I see little value in trying to shoot rapidly without recoil.

You can't practice recoil control with this system, but you are practicing trigger control. The value in shooting multiple shots in training is "muscle memory" (I hate that term, but everyone is familiar with it).

In a real life self defense encounter, you will need to shoot as many shots as it takes to stop the threat to your life. That's an unpredictable number. Quite probably more than one. You will will also likely need to be deliver them rapidly since you will need to stop them before they succeed in killing or maiming you.

If you plan to do a large part of your training with this laser system, you will be teaching your subconscious to fire the way you are training. You need to practice quickly shooting a random number of shots, certainly more than one and in a rapid cadence. Remember, repetition is training your nervous system (not your muscles ). You will "fall back on your training" under stress. Be very wary to avoid developing training scars.

(Also remember to grip the training pistol tightly like if you expected recoil. You don't want to train a weak grip to be second nature.)

I fear it's also a money trap, because they make all sorts of other nifty little targets that you can spread all over the house!

If you're handy with a computer, try some of that free software with a cheap webcam.

I printed off some life size silhouettes (multi section 8x11 sheets that you tape together) and am able to get two or three in the field of view of the camera. The Sharpspotter software has a bunch of modes and one is an option to randomly call out targets with adjustable timers. So basically I can have my gun holstered and it will instruct me to shoot the left guy or whatever. You can also play around with what it says; like "gun left", "knife middle", just to mix it up and keep it interesting.


I'm a big fan of this kind of training. I've been doing it for a little over a year and it has helped me a lot. It takes some imagination and careful planning to do serious and productive training with it, but it's a great way to augment live fire training. We can't all go to the range every week but weekly training with this system is possible. It does have it's limitations, but it also has some versatility and very real benefits.

.

[DMK]

For those of you guys who like to carry J-frame revolvers, here's something really cool. Perfect for practicing your draw from a pocket holster and a lot cheaper than buying 5 laser cartridges for your real gun.


https://www.laserlyte.com/products/l...ainer-revolver

https://www.amazon.com/LaserLyte-Tri.../dp/B019ZUJNWQ

[reteach]

I read this thread last week and ordered the kit with pistol and target. Mine arrived today and I logged in tonight to write a review, but OhioGuy beat me to it with an excellent write-up. All I can do is second almost everything he said. I bought the same kit he did.

My pistol weighs about 14 ounces. My windage was dead on and the elevation was off, and it was easy to adjust. I shot (lased?) in the warmth and comfort of my back porch and had the same thought OhioGuy had - I saved about $20 on ammo, plus the range fee today.

You can shoot at other objects - light switch, door knob, hat, the photo on the wall - and still see well enough whether you would have scored a hit. You can even laser the cat so you can have a moving target. The other great thing about this set-up is that you can draw and move - things my ranges don't allow - and practice point shooting and flash sight shooting cheaply.

As DMK pointed out, there's no recoil. You still have to get to the range now and then so you can stay in touch with the real feel of shooting. But I think my range visits are going to make me happier when I have almost daily practice at home with the LaserLyte.

I'm very pleased with this purchase.

[DMK]

You can shoot at other objects - light switch, door knob, hat, the photo on the wall - and still see well enough whether you would have scored a hit. You can even laser the cat so you can have a moving target.

A poster in another thread made an excellent point about this. It is detrimental to use the laser without an electronic target or camera/software setup that records your shots.

You don't want to train to look over your sights after every shot. That is a very bad habit and will not be conducive to accuracy. You want to train yourself to concentrate on the front sight regardless of any distractions. Let the electronic target or software record where your hits went. You can verify your results after you've finished your string of shots. This is how you would (or should) do it with live fire and this is how you should do it with your training tools.

Remember, practice does not make perfect. "Perfect practice" makes perfect.

[reteach]

DMK - I get what you're saying and I agree that practice with the LaserLyte target is best. But I'm talking about an additional use of the rig. It's sort of like dry firing, but with the added benefit of seeing where the laser hits. I do see immediately whether my laser dot hit the other objects. But yes, best practice is with the target that records your hits.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by reteach

It's sort of like dry firing, but with the added benefit of seeing where the laser hits. I do see immediately whether my laser dot hit the other objects.

eh...DMK is saying that seeing where the laser "hits" (with your own eyes and in real-time) isn't just "not as good" as an actual recorder - it's downright bad & counterproductive, so don't consider it "the added benefit". It's a point I made in the other thread as well.

Part of effective dry fire is training your visual cues, i.e. training your eyes and your mind to see and perceive what it needs to see when actually shooting. Training your eyes to see what they shouldn't isn't going to help your shooting in the long run. You simply won't be seeing what you need to see when you actually shoot your gun, and it'll show in your shooting.

For the record, there are some really top (and really fast) shooters who look at the target as they're shooting. Some people have interpreted this to mean that sights and sight picture aren't important. What these people don't seem to know is that these top shooters are also fully aware of their sight picture through their subconscious. This isn't the same as looking at a laser point and ignoring the sights. Being fully & subconsciously aware of your sight picture while looking at the target and making good 0.15sec splits is a highly advanced technique for a fairly specialized game.

[DMK]

MrBorland is the poster I was referring to above and is here, as well as in the other thread, exactly right.

Dry firing and using a laser trainer, are both simulations of actual firing. You are training your subconscious to perform a task as efficiently as possible through repetitive action (ie. training). If you are training using a different method, in this case looking over your sites to see the laser dot, then you are training with imperfect technique. When you shoot live fire, your subconscious will try to use that same imperfect technique that you were practicing in training (what folks like to call muscle memory).

[Joshwyle]

Im new here and really new to firearms. I now own a lcp 380 and 9mm m&p shield. Im wondering if a 380 laser will work in both guns since 380 and 9mm are the same diameter. I know 9mm is longer so prolly wouldnt work in 380 but the 380 being shorter but same diameter shoyld theoretically work in 9mm. Does anyone have a shield and 380 laser cartridge that theyve tried this in or any 9mm. Thanks for ur time and thoughts.

[DMK]

I doubt that will work. 380 is considerably shorter than 9mm, so the firing pin won't reach to activate the switch. Sorry.

[Joshwyle]

Any chance youve tried it? Just seems to me if the firing pins hit at same location it would work. Only reason i question it is i have 1 guy telling me it will work n u dont think it will. He hasnt tried it. Trying to find an opinion by experience if there is one thanks