Questions,questions,questions

shootsafe · July 4, 2008, 08:27 PM

Why does Lee make a 3 die set and also a 4 die set. It seems the 4th die is for a "factory crimp". Is there an advantage to the 4 die set?

Also, I noted that the Lee dies had a feature described as powder through, when the case was belled for the bullet. Is this an advantage?

Also, will Lee dies work in RCBS single stage presses or is each manufacutures presses and dies designed to work only together.

Thanks for your help.

Shootsafe

Scorch · July 4, 2008, 08:34 PM

The 3-die sets are just the standard sizer/flare/seater combinations, same as everybody else. The 4-die sets have those dies plus include a factory crimp die.

The powder-through was designed for 3-station progressive presses, and allows the case to be charged with powder at the same time it is flared, saving one step in the reloading process.

Die body and thread sizes are standard, i.e. everybody's dies fit everybody's presses.

WESHOOT2 · July 6, 2008, 10:25 AM

Lyman Deluxe 4-die set, because ITS 'powder-through' die is threaded for a real powder measure (unlike the LEE, which is NOT).

I have many LEE dies; I have many Lyman dies; I have lesser amounts of Dillon, RCBS, Hornady, and Redding dies.
I use separate crimp dies; Redding Profile Crimp dies for revolver cartridges; LEE Carbide Factory Crimp dies for autoloader cartridges.

But they all wear Forster/Bonanza die-lock rings.....

Sevens · July 6, 2008, 11:43 AM

Actually, Lee is to the point where they get kind of confusing in their different "sets." In rifle, they have their no-frills, bare bones basic 2-die rifle "RGB" set which is so dirt cheap in price that you almost snatch 'em up when you find 'em in calibers you don't even have. If you already own a shellholder set, a Lee RGB set in some random rifle caliber costs you about $12 and you can make ammo with just that teeny little investment. Where startup costs are concerned, $12 is pocket lint to get rolling in a new caliber.

The key die in rifle reloading, at least IMO is the Lee collet neck-only size die. So you will likely want the set that includes that one and I've forgotten what they call that set. The thing to remember here is that they really have the collet neck-only single die price at a higher price than I would expect out of Lee, so it makes much more sense to buy it in a set with the other dies.

The die set that includes the factory crimp die is the 4-die set. Again, IMO, I don't see much use from the rifle caliber FCD's, so I'd skip that set.

As for the powder-through expander die, you might find a use for this on a Lee progressive press that uses a Lee powder measure (such as the auto-disk powder measure). But if loading single stage, it doesn't offer any improvement over any other mouth flaring die simply because most of us charge cases in batches, and line them right up in the loading block rather than charge each case while in a die. Hard to explain, but easy to digest when you are familiar with the process.

As for die/press compatibility, there are only a couple things to remember and none will likely affect you: The dies for the Dillon Square Deal series of presses are their own dies and others can't be used, I don't know if the Dillon SDB dies can be used elsewhere, but I doubt it. Also, some old (OLD!) hand presses from the 50s and 60s used some odd-size dies that all modern presses can't use. And the new .50 BMG dies require a press that can handle their extreme size and diameter, and there are a couple presses with adapter collets that can work with them.

Beyond those few oddities, all dies can work in all presses but it gets sticky when you try to use other maker's dies in some brands of progressive presses, usually, because of vertical clearance.

In single stage, every can use everyone's, it's pretty standard. You could realistically re-size with a Lee carbide die, flare with an RCBS die and seat with a Redding die all on the same loaded round and it would turn out perfectly well if you did your part.

ForneyRider · July 7, 2008, 07:01 PM

I have Lee 3 die set in 41magnum, the seater die rolls crimps.

I have the Lee 4die set in 45ACP, the 4th die taper crimps.

The powder through expander die is pretty handy for progressive and turret presses.

The RCBS dies have a large ring that doesn't work well with my breech lock Lee single stage.

The dies are pretty much universal 7/8-14 die. Going to a 50BMG requires a large press and different dies.

Pistol dies are usually sold in set of 3 dies(sizer, expander, bullet seater with taper(semi-auto) or roll crimp(revolver)), rifle set of 2 (sizer, bullet seater with roll crimp).

Ifishsum · July 7, 2008, 07:18 PM

I like Lee's powder through expander die for pistol brass (even though I don't use a progressive) because the powder funnel won't seal on those short cases when they're in loading blocks - with the Lee die I can just throw my charge into the case while it's still on the press.

In all the Lee 3 die sets the seater die is also a crimp die - in revolver cartridges it's a roll crimper and on pistol cartridges it's a taper crimper. It's my understanding that the 4th die (Factory Crimp) is a post sizer that resizes the loaded round, making sure that it will chamber. I guess it would be handy for bulged cases, etc but I've never really had a use for it. You don't really crimp autopistol rounds anyway, so much as just iron out the bell you put into the case mouth. They need some edge there to headspace on.

BigJakeJ1s · July 8, 2008, 09:23 PM

A couple of thoughts:

For roll-crimped 45 colt, I like the crimp from my Hornady seating die (while seating the bullet) better than the crimp from my Lee FCD. And it saves a step on a single stage press too. Taper crimped cartridges may do better with the FCD, but I don't know.

Lyman also makes a universal powder-through-expander die that has interchangeable expander tips for different calibers, and a non-expanding tip for rifle cartridges. The expander in my one Lee pistol die set was pretty rough, and tended to hang up on the brass a little.

Andy

Ifishsum · July 9, 2008, 02:28 AM

Andy, Lee makes them that way on purpose, so as to make sure all the powder is shaken down as you lower the case out of the expander. They kind of pop as you pull the case out. Took me a while to get used to it myself, but I kind of like it, especially with flake powders that have a tendency to bridge in the funnel.

I personally don't see much use for the 4th Factory Crimp die, but some folks like them.

BigJakeJ1s · July 9, 2008, 11:11 PM

Ifishsum,

Thanks for the info. That may be an advantage, but I can't help thinking that if they finished the inside AND outside of the expander better, maybe they wouldn't need the jerkiness to work properly. That may also be a factor due to their smaller working diameter of the powder measure's and expander's powder path.

When I'm reloading, if something is not smooth, that is usually a big clue to something being wrong. A die designed not to operate smoothly could mask other potential problems from my attention.

Andy

croc4 · July 9, 2008, 11:45 PM

I found all the poor finish of the expander did was shave off brass and make the whole press jerky, plus the expander would gum up after several hundred rounds with grud, a little flitz on the expander and the press smoothed right out and have never had an issue with powder getting stuck, it drops right through and they stay clean longer. If you have not done this to your lee dies you are missing out. I have done it to all my dies and have never looked back

Croc4

July 4, 2008, 08:27 PM	#1
shootsafe Member Join Date: March 2, 2008 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 86	Questions,questions,questions Why does Lee make a 3 die set and also a 4 die set. It seems the 4th die is for a "factory crimp". Is there an advantage to the 4 die set? Also, I noted that the Lee dies had a feature described as powder through, when the case was belled for the bullet. Is this an advantage? Also, will Lee dies work in RCBS single stage presses or is each manufacutures presses and dies designed to work only together. Thanks for your help. Shootsafe

July 4, 2008, 08:34 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The 3-die sets are just the standard sizer/flare/seater combinations, same as everybody else. The 4-die sets have those dies plus include a factory crimp die. The powder-through was designed for 3-station progressive presses, and allows the case to be charged with powder at the same time it is flared, saving one step in the reloading process. Die body and thread sizes are standard, i.e. everybody's dies fit everybody's presses. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 6, 2008, 10:25 AM	#3
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	better choice Lyman Deluxe 4-die set, because ITS 'powder-through' die is threaded for a real powder measure (unlike the LEE, which is NOT). I have many LEE dies; I have many Lyman dies; I have lesser amounts of Dillon, RCBS, Hornady, and Redding dies. I use separate crimp dies; Redding Profile Crimp dies for revolver cartridges; LEE Carbide Factory Crimp dies for autoloader cartridges. But they all wear Forster/Bonanza die-lock rings..... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

July 6, 2008, 11:43 AM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Actually, Lee is to the point where they get kind of confusing in their different "sets." In rifle, they have their no-frills, bare bones basic 2-die rifle "RGB" set which is so dirt cheap in price that you almost snatch 'em up when you find 'em in calibers you don't even have. If you already own a shellholder set, a Lee RGB set in some random rifle caliber costs you about $12 and you can make ammo with just that teeny little investment. Where startup costs are concerned, $12 is pocket lint to get rolling in a new caliber. The key die in rifle reloading, at least IMO is the Lee collet neck-only size die. So you will likely want the set that includes that one and I've forgotten what they call that set. The thing to remember here is that they really have the collet neck-only single die price at a higher price than I would expect out of Lee, so it makes much more sense to buy it in a set with the other dies. The die set that includes the factory crimp die is the 4-die set. Again, IMO, I don't see much use from the rifle caliber FCD's, so I'd skip that set. As for the powder-through expander die, you might find a use for this on a Lee progressive press that uses a Lee powder measure (such as the auto-disk powder measure). But if loading single stage, it doesn't offer any improvement over any other mouth flaring die simply because most of us charge cases in batches, and line them right up in the loading block rather than charge each case while in a die. Hard to explain, but easy to digest when you are familiar with the process. As for die/press compatibility, there are only a couple things to remember and none will likely affect you: The dies for the Dillon Square Deal series of presses are their own dies and others can't be used, I don't know if the Dillon SDB dies can be used elsewhere, but I doubt it. Also, some old (OLD!) hand presses from the 50s and 60s used some odd-size dies that all modern presses can't use. And the new .50 BMG dies require a press that can handle their extreme size and diameter, and there are a couple presses with adapter collets that can work with them. Beyond those few oddities, all dies can work in all presses but it gets sticky when you try to use other maker's dies in some brands of progressive presses, usually, because of vertical clearance. In single stage, every can use everyone's, it's pretty standard. You could realistically re-size with a Lee carbide die, flare with an RCBS die and seat with a Redding die all on the same loaded round and it would turn out perfectly well if you did your part. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

July 7, 2008, 07:01 PM	#5
ForneyRider Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2007 Location: Forney, TX Posts: 725	I have Lee 3 die set in 41magnum, the seater die rolls crimps. I have the Lee 4die set in 45ACP, the 4th die taper crimps. The powder through expander die is pretty handy for progressive and turret presses. The RCBS dies have a large ring that doesn't work well with my breech lock Lee single stage. The dies are pretty much universal 7/8-14 die. Going to a 50BMG requires a large press and different dies. Pistol dies are usually sold in set of 3 dies(sizer, expander, bullet seater with taper(semi-auto) or roll crimp(revolver)), rifle set of 2 (sizer, bullet seater with roll crimp). __________________ When all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done.

July 7, 2008, 07:18 PM	#6
Ifishsum Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,033	I like Lee's powder through expander die for pistol brass (even though I don't use a progressive) because the powder funnel won't seal on those short cases when they're in loading blocks - with the Lee die I can just throw my charge into the case while it's still on the press. In all the Lee 3 die sets the seater die is also a crimp die - in revolver cartridges it's a roll crimper and on pistol cartridges it's a taper crimper. It's my understanding that the 4th die (Factory Crimp) is a post sizer that resizes the loaded round, making sure that it will chamber. I guess it would be handy for bulged cases, etc but I've never really had a use for it. You don't really crimp autopistol rounds anyway, so much as just iron out the bell you put into the case mouth. They need some edge there to headspace on.

July 8, 2008, 09:23 PM	#7
BigJakeJ1s Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 663	A couple of thoughts: For roll-crimped 45 colt, I like the crimp from my Hornady seating die (while seating the bullet) better than the crimp from my Lee FCD. And it saves a step on a single stage press too. Taper crimped cartridges may do better with the FCD, but I don't know. Lyman also makes a universal powder-through-expander die that has interchangeable expander tips for different calibers, and a non-expanding tip for rifle cartridges. The expander in my one Lee pistol die set was pretty rough, and tended to hang up on the brass a little. Andy

July 9, 2008, 02:28 AM	#8
Ifishsum Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,033	Andy, Lee makes them that way on purpose, so as to make sure all the powder is shaken down as you lower the case out of the expander. They kind of pop as you pull the case out. Took me a while to get used to it myself, but I kind of like it, especially with flake powders that have a tendency to bridge in the funnel. I personally don't see much use for the 4th Factory Crimp die, but some folks like them.

July 9, 2008, 11:11 PM	#9
BigJakeJ1s Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 663	Ifishsum, Thanks for the info. That may be an advantage, but I can't help thinking that if they finished the inside AND outside of the expander better, maybe they wouldn't need the jerkiness to work properly. That may also be a factor due to their smaller working diameter of the powder measure's and expander's powder path. When I'm reloading, if something is not smooth, that is usually a big clue to something being wrong. A die designed not to operate smoothly could mask other potential problems from my attention. Andy

July 9, 2008, 11:45 PM	#10
croc4 Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Location: Idaho Posts: 191	spot on on the feed throughs I found all the poor finish of the expander did was shave off brass and make the whole press jerky, plus the expander would gum up after several hundred rounds with grud, a little flitz on the expander and the press smoothed right out and have never had an issue with powder getting stuck, it drops right through and they stay clean longer. If you have not done this to your lee dies you are missing out. I have done it to all my dies and have never looked back Croc4