CC empty vs live chamber

[Cosmodragoon]

At this point, is it really still a question? Carrying with an unloaded chamber can literally get you killed. There are real cases where somebody needed that extra step of properly racking the slide and didn't make it. It can and does happen, regardless of training. Just don't do it.

There are also cases of failure with the extra step of properly operating a manual safety. It is arguably less of an ordeal to get that done. It is arguably faster to do this than it is to rack a slide. Failure might be less catastrophic or more recoverable. It still happens. That's why I don't recommend manual safeties on a carry gun either.

If anyone wants to spend some time looking at real footage of real crises in which people needed to defend their lives, check out the "Active Self Protection" channel on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE...rvF2ImeNWh84mw

[briandg]

Maybe this has been covered before, but an aspect of it that must be taken into account is the NOISE! involved when you rack a slide. The sound of a slide racking isn't going to intimidate the guy who has a gun pointed at your abdomen, it will probably just encourage him to shoot you in order to keep you from shooting him. if you look at a lot of video analyses online, you are going to see that an element of surprise is sometimes the only thing that makes an event survivable.

So, empty chamber sets your response time back a second, at least, maybe two or even three, and well, that is maybe even three minutes that the other guy has to make his decision. What is my decision going to be?

"OH, HOLY FLYING PURPLE POODLE TURDS! THAT SOB HAS A GUN!"

Then I'm going to shoot you. Good guy, bad guy, it doesn't matter, if you are in an armed confrontation, having to load a round before firing is going to signal ability and intent and it's probably the single most likely thing to make a bad guy decide to kill you. Don't do it and maybe they won't actually even come to that point and make the decision, maybe the guy will just stand there and let you shoot him with your silently drawn concealed weapon.

That is the single most important thing that I can think of. This is a similar discussion to the one of "should I rack the slide on my shotgun and scare away the bad guy who's standing in my hallway?"

[briandg]

Here's something that I believe that the whole membership can benefit from. Are there people here who are anywhere from either true expert to just well experienced laymen who could demonstrate this on video? Put up a target, stand at a ten foot line, draw from concealment and double tap.

I'd love to see a half dozen or so people demonstrate how practical and safe carry with an empty chamber is.

[Wag]

Plenty of YouTube videos out there. This one is quite sobering. Time is not always the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVPiic-ELoM

--Wag--

[briandg]

very good.

I guess that if it is boiled down to one issue, if a person carries with empty chamber, that person presumes that under any possible circumstances, he will still be able to access, draw, chamber a round, and be able to do so quickly enough to save him from injury or death. We have to be honest and admit that the situations shown, people failing to win encounters because of an empty chamber don't happen frequently. Accidental discharges of concealed weapons almost certainly happen a lot more frequently. My choice for a semiautomatic will always be either a trigger with a passive safety like the glock, or a double action semiautomatic.

[OldMarksman]

...people failing to win encounters because of an empty chamber don't happen frequently.

Situations requiring the use of force for self preservation occur very infrequently. But when they do happen outside of one's domicile there will be very, very little time tor the defender to present and fire a weapon, or the act would most likely not be justified. And the potential consequences of failure are very high indeed.

[briandg]

marksman, was I not clear? that was my point. I will not keep a defensive weapon unloaded because I am concerned about not having the weapon ready.

The smart thing to do in that case is to do something else to decrease the risk involved in carrying with a loaded chamber. So, I choose to use revolvers and my glock with loaded chambers. Very low risk of accidental discharges from fumbling around. Absolutely no risk of being caught with an empty chamber. Do you agree with that?

[TunnelRat]

This question never goes away, nor does the point about the Israelis. Beyond the fact that I'm not sure when the Israeli military became the best example of what a private citizen carrying concealed should do, many have pointed out possible reasons why the Israelis did this. To my knowledge one such reason was that going back to its formation a number of the pistols the Israelis used lacked firing pin blocks, something very common today but less so in the earlier 20th Century. These pistols were not drop safe. Given the possibility of a dropped pistol discharging and injuring nearby soldiers, soldiers don't typically operate alone unlike civilians, there is some additional reason there to carry without a round chambered. Given the availability of pistols today with firing pin blocks, to me this is less of a concern for the modern concealed carrier.

As has been pointed out by many others, the assumption of the availability of access, time, and distance to a target (the latter two being strongly related) required to manually chamber a round is typically poorly founded. I know of no instructor currently that would recommend this form of carry to a concealed carry holder who by nature is in close proximity to other people as a function of moving around in the world when any of those people could be potential threats. This is quite different from a typical military setting such as the Israelis. The argument could be made that the Israelis operate in an environment very similar to a counter-insurgency where threats can present themselves unexpectedly, but soldiers have some legal authority to maintain a buffer around them that other people cannot enter. A private citizen not on his/her own property does not have this luxury.

[Jazzgun]

So, empty chamber sets your response time back a second, at least, maybe two or even three, and well, that is maybe even three minutes that the other guy has to make his decision. What is my decision going to be?

Did you mean to say "three seconds" instead of "three minutes"?

I prefer a revolver for home defense and road travel and a loaded pocket pistol when I am in places where I might encounter the unexpected bad guy. Like a Circle K or ATM or just out for a walk alone at night. I doubt that most of the members posting here on TFL are gang members or live in super dangerous areas of their city where the likelihood of an encounter where you might have to use your gun is anything less than highly remote.

But reading the responses sure is interesting.



PS.... Be alert.

[Jazzgun]

These pistols were not drop safe.

I dropped my pocket pistol recently. I had never dropped a gun before in my life. It hit the tile floor hard but did not discharge. I had a bullet in the chamber but the safety was on. I was showing the gun to a friend. I thank God no one was injured or worse...killed.

Accidents do happen. I would have never believed I could drop my gun.

Once you ever do that....it puts things in an entirely different perspective.



PS.... And oh yes...it was my cheap little Raven.

[briandg]

jazz, it's possible that I meant to say seconds, I hope that is what happened. I may have actually gone down some rabbit hole and decided that three minutes was the right answer. In truth, I'm not so certain that even three seconds is correct. Being able to wrangle a pistol out of a concealed holster under a heavy coat and then racking the slide with gloves on won't happen in three seconds, right? And there we go, we come back to the situation that a person shouldn't be drawing a pistol unless there was serious danger, and when that sort of danger is present, five or ten seconds lost fumbling around with a pistol while out in a -5 windchill is worse than frostbite.

when I hunt I keep my safety on. Just good sense, and in no way does it interfere with my hunting. There is no stinking way that I will ever hunt with an empty chamber, and carrying a CW is a lot more important than squirrel hunting.

A squirrel is just going to hide behind a tree and yell at me if he hears me loading up. I sure as heck don't want to draw on someone who will shoot me when he sees the thing.

[Jazzgun]

And there we go, we come back to the situation that a person shouldn't be drawing a pistol unless there was serious danger, and when that sort of danger is present, five or ten seconds lost fumbling around with a pistol while out in a -5 windchill is worse than frostbite.

Hmmmm Brian. Thought provoking since you probably would not know you were in serious danger until the attacker, who was five or ten seconds of fumbling ahead of you, already had his gun in your face.

I'm so glad I live in Arizona.

I do practice drawing at home but maybe I should practice yelling "Look! Squirrel!" lol

No way I'm ever gonna outdraw an already drawn pistol.

[K_Mac]

Jazzgun you probably can't draw a gun faster than an attacker can shoot, but you may be able to deflect or secure the attacker's gun while drawing and shooting yours. That is a last choice option that is not available with an empty chamber.

[briandg]

Some people can outdraw an aimed gun, lots of people think that they can, I don't even think that I could outdraw a gun in the guy's hand, but if I have a gun aimed at me and I'm certain that he intends to use it, I'm going to very seriously consider trying. Can't run, can't fight, probably about to be shot, all of the options are gone, you try and do what you can.

The smart thing to do is to yell "cheese it, it's the cops!" and kick him in the knee when he turns and yells "Where are they? I don't see no cops!" Yelling "look! Squirrel!" might work around here in dogpatch, but probably not there in arizona. You should yell "Look! Roadrunner!" Maybe that has to go into my mental file of how to get out of trouble.

every situation is unique while at the same time they are all just like little drops of mercury that do whatever they want to do in reaction to any possible outside forces.

Living in arizona you may never have to deal with the frustration of trying to shoot a sumbitch squirrel who knows where you are and just keeps moving around to stay on the back side of the tree. I learned that the best thing to do is keep my dog with me and let him go to the other side of the tree and drive the tree rodent over to my side.

Backup is a great thing to have, whether you are trying to blow a flea infested nut muncher off his acorn maker, or if you have jocko, the lickered up, knuckle dragging, meth making moron from the southernmost end of McDonald county holding his favorite shootin iron in an offensive posture. Now that I think about it, does jocko have any postures that aren't offensive? I dunno.

whether it's a squirrel or a mouth breather, don't give away your trump card. Don't let them see that you are armed. Don't let them see your plans.

A few years back, I saw a guy wearing a black T shirt that said "Don't mess with me, I've got a gun!" It's not going to matter whether he carries empty chamber or not. the bad guy already knows everything.

[Jazzgun]

Jazzgun you probably can't draw a gun faster than an attacker can shoot, but you may be able to deflect or secure the attacker's gun while drawing and shooting yours. That is a last choice option that is not available with an empty chamber.

K_Mac, Unless I knew my attacker was deranged and planned to shoot me I wouldn't even try. But if I did I would hope I at least had a chance to get in the second or third shot. I do always carry with bullet in chamber (safety off).

[Jazzgun]

The smart thing to do is to yell "cheese it, it's the cops!" and kick him in the knee when he turns and yells "Where are they? I don't see no cops!" Yelling "look! Squirrel!" might work around here in dogpatch, but probably not there in arizona. You should yell "Look! Roadrunner!" Maybe that has to go into my mental file of how to get out of trouble.

Hahahahaha funny guy! You don't have to worry about shooting them you can kill them with your jokes! LMAO!

I haven't seen a roadrunner since I left Texas 20 years ago. And I never shot squirrels. But I shot the red tail hawks that tried to get them as they circled the tree with my PET squirrels doing the tree thing you're talking about.

Backup is a great thing to have, whether you are trying to blow a flea infested nut muncher off his acorn maker, or if you have jocko, the lickered up, knuckle dragging, meth making moron from the southernmost end of McDonald county holding his favorite shootin iron in an offensive posture. Now that I think about it, does jocko have any postures that aren't offensive? I dunno.

Brian, I don't think even Jocko would fall for "Cheese it, it's the COPS!" He would be my greatest fear. He is why I carry. He is why I train. He is why I read these forums. He is why I read your posts.

Lots of wisdom there in Dogpatch.

[Lohman446]

Some people can outdraw an aimed gun, lots of people think that they can, I don't even think that I could outdraw a gun in the guy's hand, but if I have a gun aimed at me and I'm certain that he intends to use it, I'm going to very seriously consider trying.

I cannot outdraw a drawn gun. I know that fully. As you note though sometimes it is a last ditch option.

It should be noted, and I am going by memory, most shots fired even at close range in these types of situations miss. Of those that do not a great many are not fatal. Of those that are fatal a good many of them are not QUICKLY fatal. It is entirely possible in a shooting fight that you are going to be hit and survive at least long enough to continue through your action and perhaps longer. The same goes for your opponent. While it is seemingly impossible to prepare for being shot I know from combat sports that very often the winner was not the strongest, fastest, or most skilled combatant but the combatant who did not react poorly or let his or her plan fall apart when hit. When the shooting starts how you and your opponent react to "OMG I am being SHOT at" or "OMG I have been SHOT" is going to be important.

The point is important to me. The situations I am most willing to employ deadly force involve defense of my children.

[K_Mac]

K_Mac, Unless I knew my attacker was deranged and planned to shoot me I wouldn't even try. But if I did I would hope I at least had a chance to get in the second or third shot. I do always carry with bullet in chamber (safety off).

I agree that there are times when compliance is the best solution. I also know that anyone who has threatened me or mine with a gun is operating outside of rational behavior. Knowing what an irrational assailant is going to do next is impossible.

Complying with an attacker by letting him take you to a secondary location is never a good idea. Some of the most heinous crimes ever committed have been done this way. Being under the control of a criminal in any situation, especially in a private location is dangerous at best. While every one is different, I train, practice and prepare for the worst case situation. There is far more to self defense than carrying a handgun.

Yes, being able to put multiple shots on target quickly is fundamental to self defense with a firearm. That is the reason no one credible will tell you carrying an unchambered pistol is a good option.

[Lohman446]

Complying with an attacker by letting him take you to a secondary location is never a good idea.

I tend towards the "compliance first" camp and even I agree with this one. There is a small set list of things that are simply not going to happen while I have any physical means of attempting to prevent them and a version of this is on the list. There has to be some things that you are willing to go down fighting over and this should be on the list.

[Frank Ettin]

And now we've come to the point where all these threads tend to end up -- Through the Looking Glass. We'll forgo the opportunity to see What Alice Found There.