one rifle to own

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I was unaware of this. Is it like southern NY state, shotgun only??

NJ has two firearm hunting seasons for deer; shotgun and muzzleloader.

Muzzleloader must be .44 or larger, and can have a scope. If smoothbore, no larger than 10 Gauge and no smaller than 20 Gauge. No double barrel muzzleloaders (in permit muzzleloader, double barrel smoothbore ok for six-day firearm) or electronic ignition. Blackpowder or an equivalent can be used, but NJ statues clearly say not modern smokeless powder. Can only be loaded with a single projectile (all muzzleloaders during permit muzzleloader)... but smoothbore can be loaded with shot between #4 and 000 (only during six-day firearm).

Shotgun can be loaded with buckshot (between #4 and 000) or slugs (lead, lead-alloy, or copper; rifle or sabot), but if you have slugs in your possession, your shotgun must have rifle sights or a scope (no slugs with head sights). Minimum of 20 Gauge, maximum of 10 Gauge, and can hold a max of three shells (two magazine, one in chamber).

Again, that is deer regulations... and I believe they are similar with bear (slugs are the only ammo allowed, no shot). .308s are not allowed to be used for hunting within NJ.

[Reloadron]

I believe just about every semi-automatic rifle out there can be subject to some form of issues. In general I would buy and maintain either a Browning or Remington 7400. My Remington 7400 in the 30-06 chambering has proven to be a good reliable hunting rifle. Living where you live just deal with the state and local laws.

Ron

[g.willikers]

Not being familiar with the Benelli, I had to go look.
http://www.benelliusa.com/argo

[highpower3006]

OP, why are you so worried about a rifle looking like it's "tactical"? The mindset of the user determines whether a rifle is "tactical" or not. Like it or not, the AR10 style of rifle will give you the best bang for the buck in a semi auto rifle.

I have a bunch of semi's chambered in .308 among them a M1A and I like it, but mounting a scope is a pain and I had problems with keeping mine zeroed. Maybe you could look around for an unconverted Saiga in .308 and try one of them. they come with a scope mount on the receiver and in the sporting configuration they shouldn't scare the snowflakes any more or less than any other firearm.

[Wyosmith]

I owned an R1 and sold it just a few months ago. I killed deer and elk both with it and had good things to say about it. It was a 270 Short mag. I killed an elk 2 seasons ago at 400 years, and I killed a deer the year before at 450.

Positive things are:

Very light recoil for its power level.

Light in weight compared to military style autos.

Close to MOA in accuracy.

Stunning wood out of the box. (I don't know if they use the good wood now however)

Decent trigger for an auto.

Negatives are:
The wood is the ONLY thing attractive about one. This rifle is as good looking as an AR15, which means it's no beauty queen.

Very finicky as to what it shot accurately. A top load with H1000 and Nosler 160 grain bullets shot about 1-1/4 MOA. All factory ammo I tried (3 brands and types) shot over 5". Many other hand loads shot about 3.5 MOA.

Length of Pull is far too long for the average shooter and because of the weird butt pad arrangement, it's not an amateurs job to cut it down. I is possible and I did it, but you'd better know what you are doing if you want a LOP of less then 14-5/8" They come with a stock that can be made a lot longer, but not shorter. I don't know what the Italians were thinking when they came up with that, but they must think all hunters are 6 foot 6" or taller.

Overall I was impressed, but if I were to buy another non-military style rifle in a full power cartridge, I would choose the Browning over the Benelli. The Benelli's magazine is easier to remove and replace, but that's not too important in a hunting rifle. The BAR can also be had in a number of calibers that are not available in the Benelli R1.
I have shot a number of BARs over the last 50 years and although some were not very accurate, most were, shooting under 2 MOA and a few would shoot 1 MOA.
In all truth, 2MOA is just fine for deer out to 500 years and that a lot farther than 99% of the hunters can or will shoot. If you want "sniper accuracy" there are few Autos that give 1MOA consistently and none I know of that will do it with any load you choose. The FNAR I had, and the one my friend Jeff has shoots under MOA with a few loads including Winchester white-box 150 grain, but when we tried my best hand-loads with 180 grain bullet it would "only" hold 1.5 MOA.

Trying to get autos to shoot SUB MOA has a problem inherit to the guns, that being the first thing a load must do is cycle the action. Some loads may shoot very very well for accuracy, but the gun won't cycle with them.

That's one reason I have come to like the Mossberg MVP. 10 or 20 round mags as I choose (I wish Mag-Pull made a 5 rounder) and I can work the loads like any bolt gun to get sub MOA from it. And being a bolt action is shoots anything I want.

[Deaf Smith]

Say is the M1 Garand a 'tactical' rifle?

If not then I'd think about a 'Tanker' Garand.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/fultona...1-1-1-1-2.aspx

Yes over $2000 bucks but... While in 30-06 they make .308 barrels so I suspect you can get one in .308.

Deaf

[Screwball]

Fulton Armory does nice rifles, but I wouldn't recommend them to someone that isn't going to compete. Plenty of USGI rifles out there, usually half the price as Fulton.

If you want a shorter Garand, Shuff's Mini-G is the best choice. I never had one made, maybe if I get another Garand and some cash, but I had him rebuild my Century build on a Lithgow receiver... looks absolutely beautiful! And no, it isn't out of spec.







Top notch work, and Tim is a very good guy.

[Reloadron]

I have done some searching, yet mostly tactical rifles show up, which in NJ is a pain to get at a legal somewhat watered down version. I did come across the Browning BAR line, which I have found very conflicting reports on the reliability (the price tag doesn't help, but I can stretch the budget a little if it means that this is the one and only (heartbeats faster)). If you guys can help out I'd appreciate it. Thanks
bbb7

What myself or anyone else thinks or sees as "tactical rifle" or "assault rifle" really matters not since in your case the State of New Jersey has their definition and since you happen to live there that definition applies to you.

That said the mentioned M1 Garand is NJ legal since it meets their cxriteria as to what you may or may not own. Short of a non-semiautomatic bolt gun the M1 Garand is about as good as it gets along the lines of a military type rifle. Rifles like the M1A or similar are out. Some by specific name and others by N.J.s list using words like "similar". Your options come down to a hunting rifle by your state's definition of what you may or may not have and you are wise to do your homework.

<EDIT> Based on the following post by Screwball, a NJ resident, the M1A rifles are a NJ legal rifle. My bad on saying it wasn't! </EDIT>

Ron

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Reloadron

That said the mentioned M1 Garand is NJ legal since it meets their cxriteria as to what you may or may not own. Short of a non-semiautomatic bolt gun the M1 Garand is about as good as it gets along the lines of a military type rifle. Rifles like the M1A or similar are out. Some by specific name and others by N.J.s list using words like "similar".

M1As ARE NOT ILLEGAL... unless you put on an old flash-hider with bayonet lug, or leave the flash-hider on and do a chassis system with a pistol grip/collapsible stock. Or if you install a muzzle brake and then add a chassis with a pistol grip and a collapsible stock. Doing any of that converts it to an "assault weapon."

Most gun shops stock M1As, and I have one sitting in my safe... perfectly legal. I actually had a member of the NJSP Firearms Unit at my house and showed him that rifle, since he wanted to know the differences between a standard M1A and a NM version (which I own). It wasn't seised, nor was I arrested on "assault weapon" charges.

Same goes with ARs... if it has a pistol grip, don't have a threaded barrel/flash hider, collapsible/folding stock, bayonet lug, or grenade launcher. Doesn't matter if it is 5.56mm or .308... legal. S&W M&P-10s, mind you compliant, are available in many gun shops. Can't be a Colt "AR-15" or "CAR-15..." by name. The "similar" aspect of that is not including clones... you are thinking Massachusetts, which the AG changed the interpretation of that law.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see any member jammed up for having an "assault weapon" from whatever state they live in... but telling people they cannot have an M1A in NJ is wrong. The NJAG put out a directive in 1997, which is clearly posted on the NJSP website, saying the M1A is fine, judging you follow the guidelines in 2C:39 (only having one feature from the list).

[Reloadron]

Screwball, no your comments are most welcome and especially as a NJ resident. Do they limit the magazine capacity and what's up with regard to a detatchable magazine? My only point was to live within the NJ laws. Absolutely, thank you for the correction, especially coming from a NJ resident.

Ron

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Reloadron

Screwball, no your comments are most welcome and especially as a NJ resident. Do they limit the magazine capacity and what's up with regard to a detatchable magazine? My only point was to live within the NJ laws. Absolutely, thank you for the correction, especially coming from a NJ resident.

Ron

First off, sorry... reread my post and comes off a little rough. Was dealing with the dogs, and a few other things, so didn't proofread it before I hit post.

NJ law is messed up, but think of it along the lines of the Federal AWB... in regards to firearms. Very similar.

The main difference is with NJ law is magazines. No pre-ban or anything like that... all semi-auto rifles can only have 15 round magazines or less, internal included. Bolt guns can have higher capacities, like a Mauser or M1903 "trench" magazine... as long as the magazine cannot be used in a semi-auto rifle.

In regards to detachable magazines, 15 rounds. Either true 15s or permanently pinned to 15 (many FFLs do compliance work).

Shy of that, my other posts touch on specifics for the M1A. Any questions, I can answer them to the best of my ability. Coming back from a horse show my girlfriend was at in PA... so I can reply later tonight.

[dgludwig]

OP, why are you so worried about a rifle looking like it's "tactical"? The mindset of the user determines whether a rifle is "tactical" or not.

My guess is that the op is not so concerned with what he thinks as he is about unnecessarily attracting the unwanted attention and attendant criticism from naive, self-righteous and liberty-hating onlookers that have made the state of New Jersey a lot less free by voting for ultra-leftist ideologues year after year.
Perception is reality for these misguided folks and an "assault" rifle is only meant for killing people in their cramped little minds.

[Reloadron]

Screwball, your post did not come off as a little rough. Not in the least so don't even give it a thought. Dogs? Have a few here including a new puppy. I had forgotten the puppy drill. I get trips into NJ quite often as my sole living uncle is in Califon and I get back to NY every now and then for reunions, I was Brooklyn born and raised. Anyway, I still have a thick skin and your post was on target. Again, don't give it a thought.

Ron

[highpower3006]

My guess is that the op is not so concerned with what he thinks as he is about unnecessarily attracting the unwanted attention and attendant criticism from naive, self-righteous and liberty-hating onlookers that have made the state of New Jersey a lot less free by voting for ultra-leftist ideologues year after year.
Perception is reality for these misguided folks and an "assault" rifle is only meant for killing people in their cramped little minds.

That is pretty much what I figured what was happening. Still it begs the question, why worry about what narrow minded little retarded liberals think? Just having a gun (gasp) is going to send the snowflakes running for their safe spaces.

I do what I want to do. I am a free man and as long as I am not hurting anyone or breaking the law, I could care less what a bunch of bleeding libtards think.


Back to our regularly scheduled programming: The Garand is a good idea, but it suffers from the same issue that the M1A has, only it is exacerbated by the the fact that mounting a scope or an optic of any kind is going to be difficult. I know that the stock sights on the Grand/M1A are the best of the military type sights, but if he intends to use his rifle as a hunting rig, a scope is going to be almost a necessity.

If all he is going to do is punch holes in paper then they will work just fine. Still, if it was me, I would look at an AR10 type rifle.

[dgludwig]

I could care less what a bunch of bleeding libtards think.

I don't care what they "think" either-except that what they think carries over to what they do at the ballot box. And that matters enough for me to avoid causing any unnecessary antagonism on their part. It's a sad reality but real it is.

I am fortunate enough to live in a free state and I can flaunt pc "convention" with using any "weaponry of war" I choose to hunt with without fearing pc retribution at the polls (at least for now-these things have a way of changing that bode ill will). That said, I still prefer the Mini-14 I keep in my truck to have a wood stock over a black synthetic one...

[Reloadron]

When we live in a state, any state, we are subject to the laws of that state. While we are free to disagree with those laws we are still bound by those laws. You either abide by state laws or your life becomes very miserable. The thread is about one rifle to own which is pretty simple. Why is it a bunch of soap boxes come out and considering this is a gun forum, loaded with firearms enthusiast, we have what amounts to preaching to the choir?

Some people really don't have a choice as to state of residence. They live where the job and money is. I doubt they supported the legislation which limits their rights to gun ownership but they are stuck with the laws.

Ron

[44 AMP]

They live where the job and money is.

That's actually a choice.


There is ALWAYS a choice. Often not a pleasant choice, sometimes not a good choice, or what you consider an affordable choice, but there is always a choice.

[Reloadron]

Well yes and no.

Depends on if you like to eat or not. Seriously we do have some choice but with kids in tow I lived in some different places over my career. Many abroad and the irony is I was NYC born and raised and spent years living in CA. Today, retired and comfy guess which two places I will never have a desire to live?

Ron

[dgludwig]

When we live in a state, any state, we are subject to the laws of that state. While we are free to disagree with those laws we are still bound by those laws. You either abide by state laws or your life becomes very miserable. The thread is about one rifle to own which is pretty simple. Why is it a bunch of soap boxes come out and considering this is a gun forum, loaded with firearms enthusiast, we have what amounts to preaching to the choir?

The op submitted his first post ever to this forum and asked for suggestions as to which "non-tactical" semi-auto rifle, chambered in .308 to buy. Because he didn't explain why he insisted on getting a rifle non-tactically configured (nor, for that matter, has he since revisited the thread he started), some posters questioned his reasons. I and others speculated that he wanted a rifle that didn't look tactical (what some have dubbed a "gray man" firearm) because he lives in a liberal, anti-gun state (New Jersey) where he didn't feel comfortable displaying it.

Just because an American citizen is forced to live in a state for economic, familial or other reasons where the anti-Second Amendment laws are so Draconian that you can be imprisoned for violating gun laws that other states regard as being unconstitutional, doesn't mean that you have to quietly submit to them. To remain silent is to imply consent.

Yes, this is a "gun forum, loaded with firearm enthusiasts", but the very reason for the op's question in his thread was seemingly prompted by the nature of the laws of the state he lives in. If some of us felt it was important enough to scale a soap box to express our outrage over the circumstances the op is forced to deal with offends you, well, clamp your hands over your ears and wait until the fat lady stops singing in the choir you speak of.

[dgludwig]

My one criticism of it is that the bolt doesn't lock down with the safety, something I detest,

I share your contempt. It might not be a deal-breaker for me and it's something I can adapt to but I still hate it.

[Reloadron]

Dgludwig, still on the soapbox. Whatever, to each their own opinion.

Ron

[dgludwig]

There's an old photo of me taken sometime in 1963 or '64, near Oscoda, Michigan, while I was stationed at a nearby US AFB, where I'm standing next to my old 1956 Ford, with a Browning Double-Auto shotgun in one hand and a ruffed grouse (Michiganders called them 'pats) in the other. If you look close, you'll see a decal on the back bumper of that old Ford that reads "Support Your Right to Keep and Bear Arms".
So, yeah, Reloadron, I'll be on that soapbox until my voice is silenced and you have to pry that old shotgun from my cold, dead hands.

[44caliberkid]

Here's a wild card. Mossberg MVP Patrol in 308. Light weight, takes M1A magazines, doesn't worry the 5-0 or legislators.

[Reloadron]

Dgludwig, all well and fine. Nobody is saying you should not speak out and defend the right to keep and bear arms. As I mentioned this is a gun forum, so you are , in my own opinion, preaching to the choir. That was my point. When we let states like NJ or NY or CA and the list goes on in a thread asking about something totally away from the politics all we do is derail the thread. I agree the original poster did not come back. If we want to start a thread about NJ laws suck there are other forum sections for it. Anyway, I am dropping it.

As a side note thanks for your service. During 63 and 64 I was 13 & 14 years old and enjoying my shooting career which began in '58. My military years came later in the Marine Corps. Worked with the Air Force Jolly Green Giants in DaNang, good guys.

Ron

[zipspyder]

You want to start a politics war that is what arfcom is for. Meanwhile until things change everyone still has to obey the NJ laws. Some good info and guns to choose from in here.