Shotgun or Rifle?..

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

A Palmetto State Armory blem lower (assembled) and a budget PSA upper (assembled) were running $360 last time I looked. You'd still need shipping, FFL fees, a bolt carrier group, charging handle and rear sight; but you could come close to that Ruger American price.

Cheapest one I could put together at PSA was $515 with all the parts you said it would need. I figure it'll cost another $35 on average for the transfer fees which puts it at $550 without shipping. Really that isn't a bad deal on an AR15 that's ready to shoot.

However, I can walk into my local Wally Mart and pick up a brand new M700 ADL package with scope in .223, .243, .270, or .30-06 for $410 out the door and a M870 for $335 out the door. Not to mention if you buy both before the 30th of September you can get a $50 rebate on each firearm. So for less than $700 in two firearms I'm at the range with plenty of ammunition to get me shooting.

Plus you can walk into just about any big box sporting goods store and buy a Savage 11 Trophy Hunter with Nikon scope for $550 + tax and then turn around and get a $75 rebate on the purchase. I'm pretty sure T/C is offering a $50 rebate on the Venture rifles until the end of the year very soon if not already, they're giving a $75 rebate to all military until the end of the year right now. Then there is the fact that if you spend more than $400 out the door on a regular blued Ruger American or American compact you didn't shop around much.

[bamaranger]

There's just too much latitude in the OP's question, and not enough choices in his preferred answers (AR or 590) for this post to make a whole lot of sense.

[g.willikers]

As far as what will go through walls or not:
There's really no guarantee how any type of ammo will act in a given situation.
Too many variables to consider.
The thickness of the walls, the presence of studs, what else might be in the room to slow down or stop the projectiles.
Lots of things to consider, including not missing the intended target in the first place.
Just a thought or few.

[Deaf Smith]

My options are a Mossberg 590 12-gauge or an AR of some kind.

MM,

If you go the Mossberg route, get both a 18 inch rifle sighted barrel AND 26 inch ventilated rib barrel.

And a Tac-Star side saddle and Magpull rear stock and you are good to go shoot birds, shoot clays, home defense, deer (inside 100 yards). The only place it will come up short will be longer range shooting and extended fire (where you need lots of ammo.)

But, that Mossie, if you look around, won't cost you $450, even with the extras. And AR will cost you at least $600 or more for the 'basic' gun.

Just depends. I have both AR and Mossie 500 Mariner 12 and they overlap in ability.

Deaf

[Old Bill Dibble]

I see Radical and Bear Creek AR's complete out the door for $499 on sale today. The Bear Creek has a quad rail. This is not unusual at all.

[TrueBlue711]

Quote:
but the 5.56/.223 has a lot of penetration power vs the shotgun. Don't want stray bullets going into other rooms of the house or even a neighbors house

FALSE

00 Buckshot will penetrate drywall a lot more readily than the 223 which will break apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOIQgfvVlE
I stand corrected. I guess I just based my initial comment on shooting steel plates with the two.

[Deaf Smith]

Just depends on the load. FMJ 63 grain green tip I think will penetrate more than say 45 gr varmint HPs. And OO buck more than say, #2 goose load.

Just depends on what you put in the gun.

Deaf

[GarandTd]

I'm thinking shotgun. Get a combo that comes with 2 barrels. I don't believe there is an ammo more readily available anywhere. Less likely to encounter hunting restrictions. Been defending homes since it's creation. Way less expensive.

[Old Bill Dibble]

I am not a proponent of bird shot for HD but a #2 Goose load in a magnum shell will give a BG something to think about.

[Panfisher]

Ditto what kraigway said, with the exception that for cheap shooting I wouldn't be afraid to get one in .223. I love hunting with a shotgun but don't even have one with ready ammo for a home defense firearm.

[MilitaMatters]

So I feel like a good lever action or a pump shotgun would be my better option here based on a few well thought out comments I've seen here. The M590 was my choice over the M500 or R870 because of the magazine extension and the placement of the pump safety (the lever you press to engage the slide).

I prefer hunting SMALL game but the biggest thing I hunt is Elk and that is only occasionally. I hunt deer and every other smaller 4-legger around here (Alaska). My purpose for open carrying would mainly fall under the defense category as well because we have very large and dangerous animals out here (grizzly, black bear, moose,wolf, etc.) So I wanted an all around gun to walk with and hunt with. And for everyone here saying .223/5.56 won't even phase a grizzly, If any animal can take 5-10 rounds or 2-3 slugs, center-mass, and still get to me then I guess it was my time to go anyway.

I don't plan on hunting the bear, just defending myself from it. Same story with moose.

I walk trails on my property, sometimes with my kids. I also take them hunting occasionally. So a good bush gun is a must. So scooting what may or may not be "Legal" under the rug momentarily, what would be the better option here? Theoretically of course.

And for home defense, well it might not be a man popping through the window.

Really hope this helps clarify my problem to some of you and I look forward to seeing your replies.

-MM

[taylorce1]

Well if you're worried about aggressive bears on your property or walking around, then you don't want an AR shooting .223 or any small caliber cartridge. Bullet penetration is your friend if you're trying to stop an aggressive animal, and a .223 won't have the penetration of a larger caliber bullet. A .308 or larger cartridge would do better for any aggressive bears or other large animals that may you need to defend yourself from. A shot gun shooting the proper slugs would also be a good choice for bear defense.

A good can of bear spray would be advisable as well.

[Bushmaster1313]

sadly the one bane of the married man is money. I can only afford one or the other.

If the wife is good keep her

You can always find a nice gun

[Deaf Smith]

I am not a proponent of bird shot for HD but a #2 Goose load in a magnum shell will give a BG something to think about.

Well you can always use BB loads, and call your shottie a 'BB' gun! "Officer, I shot him with my BB gun only once! Honest!"

As for bears... think Brenneke Black Magic. 12 Gauge, 3 in, 1-3/8 oz (yes that's 600 grains), 1500 fps. Basically a 20mm cannon.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/blackmagicmagnum.html

There ain't no bear made that it can take.

And as for buckshot... Federal Tactical LE with FliteControl Wad is the way to go.

http://www.federalpremium.com/educat...tecontrol.aspx

Very tight groups well past 30 yards.

Deaf

[MilitaMatters]

Size+Velosity=penetration last i checked?.. While larger calibers work well on steel, i am not so sure that a larger caliber fired at the same or slightly higher velocity into a flesh backdrop would penetrate more. In fact, wouldn't it DUMP its energy into the initial impact creating the larger permanent cavity we see with slugs or other hunting calibers..? FMJ .223 Should make it through a few inches of fat and tissue to the vitals unless you hit something like a bone where it would stop the round but fracture the bone. And a semi-auto 30-30/.308 is kinda expensive.. Bolt actions are cheap, but when seconds matter and a follow-up shot is required, a semi-auto is best.

Please do correct me if I am wrong with these physics, though, it is just what I've gathered by what I've seen online. But with a grizz I guess the money would be worth that bigger perm-cavity in case my aim is off. More stopping power.

I will look into more ballistics, thank you for the advice.

-MM

[taylorce1]

Mass (size) X Velocity = Energy, not penetration. However, a larger mass or bullet is harder to stop than a smaller bullet. A .224 caliber FMJ would be my last choice for bullets to stop any big game animal angry or not. I'd rather have one well placed shot on any aggressive animal than the ability for quick follow up shots.

Bolt action rifles are capable of quick follow up shots, if you learn how to manipulate the bolt properly. You just need to learn to work the bolt without taking it from your shoulder. It takes practice, but you can empty a magazine pretty quickly with a bolt action.

For some rapid fire with a bolt action check this video out.

https://youtu.be/S-L-fGiSicE

[Lohman446]

If bear defense is a concern it DRASTICALLY tips the scale to the 12 gauge. If you get one well placed shot on a charging bear I expect you are doing pretty well. Depending on the volume of the AR to make up for lack of mass and penetration is not, IMO, a good plan.

[MilitaMatters]

While bear is a major concern, there are several other predatory animals that I hunt. A shotgun with 00-buck wouldn't be my first choice for that kinda game, as you need to get extremely close. Slugs may drastically increase that distance but with unreliable accuracy at longer ranges. Longer ranges being a maximum of 100m-150m. I would use buck but there are the moral problems of the animals suffering and the practical problems of harvesting untainted meat. It's probably possible to hit a coyote sized target within 75m, but who knows what part you will hit. Would slugs be overkill for a coyote?

Basically, I need a firearm that can handle big game up close and small game far away.

Any further advice is very much appreciated

-MM

P.S. I've basically scrapped my original picks for what firearm I need. Honestly, I just need whatever will fit the bill. Might even look into getting a good lever action.

[taylorce1]

Basically, I need a firearm that can handle big game up close and small game far away.

Really doesn't exist, but you're welcome to try. 00 buck is just going to make a big bear very angry, unless he's right on top of you. Slugs and .308 or larger rifle will be my choice of bear medicine.

[deadcoyote]

I think this really depends on where you live. I live in a heavily wooded area where hunting distances are short, and birds are plentiful (along with black tailed deer, bears, cats). If I needed an off grid type game getter/self defense gun a shotgun would be a good choice. If you live in the high desert or some other place where you can't get within a few hundred yards of a deer, shotgun wouldn't help you much.

As far as saving money on a shotgun, I have a Maverick 88 (the assembled in Mexico version of the Mossberg 500) I bought for $189. It came with an 18.5" barrel and is a 6+1 model you can plug for hunting. Picked up a used 24" rifled slug barrel with sights on it for $75, and bought a rusty 28" barrel for $45, which i then had to elbow work as far as sanding it and painting it with alumahyde. all in all I got a decent little package for less than $350.

[RowdyCo]

Basically, I need a firearm that can handle big game up close and small game far away.

Really doesn't exist, but you're welcome to try.

Yep. Sounds to me like you need, at bare minimum, a couple of guns. I'm sure you can convince your wife that you need at least two. I suggest a shotgun and a rifle as a starting point, since it's relatively simple to argue needing both of those.

Here's what you do next- you give your wife a couple months to adjust to being a two-gun family. Then one evening, after tenderly embracing her, you lament not having a compact, close-quarters weapon with which to safeguard your precious family. Enter the Handgun. Every house needs a handgun! What kind of maniac doesn't have a handgun in the home? It would be irresponsible in the extreme not to own at least one pistol or revolver (use the phrase "at least one" as a primer for future purchases). "It's settled! We're getting a handgun."

Once you've arrived at this point, things get a bit trickier, but stick with me. You're probably gonna want to allow a few more months to go by before you take advantage of one of those "what are you thinking about?" questions that wives who've been married less than say, 5 years seem to enjoy asking. (If you've been married longer than that this entire process is unlikely to work. At around 5 years my wife figured out she either already knew what I was thinking, or didn't care to, and stopped asking) You quickly describe some shooting scenario that none of your current firearms are cut out for, thus requiring you to purchase another.

This process is repeated, being careful to allow some time for healing between purchases, until... well it goes on indefinitely. Your imagination is your only limit. You can even try this, though this is potentially dangerous- use the standard gift-giving occasions to bring new guns into the house. Christmas and my wife's birthday are my go-to events (Valentines day is a no-go, trust me). With a little skill, you will have a gun-safe full of beauties in no time! Good luck!

Disclaimer: For academic purposes only. I am not responsible for any death/dismemberment resulting from actually implementing any of the above advice

[44 AMP]

but sadly the one bane of the married man is money. I can only afford one or the other.

In the old days, a man wouldn't consider marriage, BEFORE he had both the means to provide for, and protect a wife and family.

I think that's still the best idea, even today.

Get a decent 12ga pump, with a sporting barrel. It will cover a lot. If you can get a spare, short barrel, its good for even more. A good .22 will handle small game, up to the limit of your skill. A decent used deer rifle doesn't have to be all that expensive.

Forget about the tacticool toys until you have money to play with.

[Kvon2]

I like the idea of one of each and choosing more affordable options.

However, that's not the question asked. If I had to choose 1 it would be a shotgun and definitely get a package with two barrel lengths.

You can't beat the versatility of the shotgun.

[PatientWolf]

Since you list an AR as an option when considering hunting, I assume you are not hunting fowl. Like others I will throw out another option for you. (I know you didn't ask).

Have you considered a pistol caliber lever action? An 18" lever chambered in either .44Mag or .357Mag would seem to fit your use and they are a lot of fun.

Henry, Marlin and Rossi all offer good quality affordable options currently.

[MilitaMatters]

I think a decent option would be to get a shotgun and one of those nifty Glock upper attachments (Not made BY Glock, just for em.) for converting a 9mm or .45 caliber pistol into a small game hunter. I can carry the upper assembly in a Ruger 10/22 Takedown bag and probably find it in a larger caliber like .40S&W.

That or I could purchase just the shotgun and get sneaky Rambo style on hunts... Just a thought

But realistically, I think I will be purchasing a shotgun at present and when I save up enough I will buy myself a decent lever-action rifle. Lever actions built the west after all.

Thank you all for your advice and help.

-MM