ugh. SD ammo - Page 6

Bill DeShivs · July 26, 2009, 09:17 PM

Not to mention landing on the moon!
Damn, we were stupid!

armsmaster270 · July 26, 2009, 09:50 PM

It all comes down to either one can and cannot work how about the guy NYPD hit 13 times with 9mm's and lived. If you don't hit the sweet spot it may not work I don't care if your using a .44. If you have placement a bic pen will work.

ADB · July 27, 2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Lemme know how that buck shot handles a windshield from 15 yards...
Be surprised what two layers of glass laminated with high tech thick soft plastic...
Brent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievbU3xIYGQ

About 8:58, they demonstrate #4 buckshot against a windshield at 7 yards. Through and through. I expect 000 buck would penetrate at 15.

cedjunior · July 27, 2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Yeah, those generations sure were stupid. Didn''t know anything about physics. Well, maybe just a little. Automobile, airplane, atomic weapons come to mind right off.

DC

Ah yes. Everybody, and I mean everybody's parents and grandparents had a hand in designing those things, right? Every single person had a deep understanding of all that stuff, right? Not just the small subset of professionals in those fields right? I mean thats the only way your comment could make sense. I think my grand parents were cheated, they didn't know a thing about designing atomic weapons!

Quote:

Not to mention landing on the moon!
Damn, we were stupid!

You landed on the moon? I didn't see you there. Everyone else in the world must have landed on the moon too, because thats the only way your comment could make any sense. You didn't need to be a rocket scientist or an engineer, or an astronaut, just regular old Joe walking down the street and BOOM all the sudden you're sending people to the moon.

People who say anything to or take anything out of context to try and hold on to their silly point make me laugh. And I'm laughing at you 2 right now. If you're going to purposely be disingenuous, then why even bother posting? Just leave.

MLeake · July 27, 2009, 07:30 PM

... informative video, but on the windshield they didn't use an optimal camera angle. Looked like some of the pellets may have deflected upward and not gone through, but it's hard to tell.

What would have been better would have been a crash test or gelatin dummy in seat, with the camera inside the vehicle showing what the shot did.

Guess beggars can't be choosers, though.

Cheers,

M

Xyas · July 27, 2009, 07:47 PM

The closest thing I could find is just pistol ammunition through the windshield, couldn't find anything on shotgun buck shot. It's still an interesting article though!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm

mathman · July 27, 2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Not to mention landing on the moon!
Damn, we were stupid!

I know I said I was done with this one...but I can't help myself.

Regarding the moon...there are a growing number of people who believe it never happened...just thought I'd throw that out there. (You know, pictures of the flag blowing in the wind...on the moon!)

Not to mention the invention of the suburban lifestyle...genious!!

It think maybe this generation was best at smoke and mirrors...just an opinion.

Cheers!

Xyas · July 27, 2009, 08:29 PM

Regarding the moon...there are a growing number of people who believe it never happened...just thought I'd throw that out there. (You know, pictures of the flag blowing in the wind...on the moon!)

Mythbusters did an episode on that, really good episode!

.45 COLT · July 27, 2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Yeah, those generations sure were stupid. Didn''t know anything about physics. Well, maybe just a little. Automobile, airplane, atomic weapons come to mind right off.

DC

Ah yes. Everybody, and I mean everybody's parents and grandparents had a hand in designing those things, right? Every single person had a deep understanding of all that stuff, right? Not just the small subset of professionals in those fields right? I mean thats the only way your comment could make sense. I think my grand parents were cheated, they didn't know a thing about designing atomic weapons!

Quote:
Not to mention landing on the moon!
Damn, we were stupid!

You landed on the moon? I didn't see you there. Everyone else in the world must have landed on the moon too, because thats the only way your comment could make any sense. You didn't need to be a rocket scientist or an engineer, or an astronaut, just regular old Joe walking down the street and BOOM all the sudden you're sending people to the moon.

People who say anything to or take anything out of context to try and hold on to their silly point make me laugh. And I'm laughing at you 2 right now. If you're going to purposely be disingenuous, then why even bother posting? Just leave.

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Last edited by cedjunior; Today at 06:15 PM.

I didn't mean to imply that some people don't come from stupid stock.

DC

Bill DeShivs · July 27, 2009, 09:49 PM

Cedjunior-
Have you ever even SHOT a shotgun? If so, have you shot one at anything besides a paper target? Exactly what is your experience that makes you such an expert?
I didn't go to the moon, but I read about it. That makes my moon expertise about what yours is regarding shotguns as HD weapons.
I doubt I'll leave anytime soon, but thanks for the offer.

oneounceload · July 27, 2009, 10:07 PM

Guys - the bravado of youth through the ages has always lead to the attitude that their parents don't know anything and they know everything. In time, they learn just how stupid they really are.........

MLeake · July 27, 2009, 10:34 PM

... it all comes down to the ability for the colony to breed, and to sustain its numbers, Oneounceload.

As my prof explained it, a couple decades ago, with the example of a baboon colony, for female vs male risk taking, and mature vs immature risk taking relative levels.

Female vs Male

You have 10 females and 10 males. Kill 9 females. There can now be at most one baboon (assuming no twins, etc) born next season, and 10 males are fighting over the one female, possibly leading to further deaths in the colony; or

Kill 9 males. You can potentially have 10 young baboons (again assuming no twins etc) born next season, replenishing the colony. The females may fight, but will be busy with the young baboons. The male is probably quite content.

Conclusion: In a basic, small colony, males are more expendable, and thus are the ones who should primarily explore, hunt, and gather.

(Note: these are baboons, in a small colony, with no technology - as a practical matter, it doesn't apply in our modern society, but evolution can be slow to catch up with technology and social developments)

Young vs Old

You have 10 immature males, and 10 males of breeding age.

Kill 10 mature males; the immature males can't breed yet, Colony numbers stay down for the next season or more, breeding age females may have to hunt and gather, increasing their own risk; or...

Kill 10 immature males; the mature males are typically happy to work with the females at replacing them. Replacements born next season.

So, if one believes in evolution guiding behavioral tendencies, one would expect young males to be the most oriented toward risk-taking behavior. They're the most expendable.

Cheers,

M

mathman · July 27, 2009, 10:35 PM

What was this thread about again?

Oh yes...BUCKSHOT > birdshot

MLeake · July 27, 2009, 10:36 PM

... but it did actually relate to some posts.

And besides, you have to love baboon colony analogies, no?

greyson97 · July 27, 2009, 10:52 PM

i keep coming to this thread, and I keep wanting to post, but then I say to myself, if i dont post, i wont perpetuate the thread, thus, the sooner the thread dies.

now we are talking about buck shot and windshield penetration, forefathers walking on the moon, nuclear physics, deer in the living room, young vs old, and now, baboon colony.

I'd like to throw my random ass opinion into the mix.

Jennifer Love Hewitt did well in portraying Audrey Hepburn in "The Audrey Hepburn Story"

mathman · July 27, 2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

And besides, you have to love baboon colony analogies, no?

Yes, quite interesting...and I can assure you that I belong to the latter group of males...the less expendable.

tmd11111 · July 27, 2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

i wont perpetuate the thread, thus, the sooner the thread dies.

That ain't going to kill it cause your shot size was too small

mathman · July 28, 2009, 06:50 AM

Quote:

That ain't going to kill it cause your shot size was too small

nice...

ADB · July 28, 2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

... informative video, but on the windshield they didn't use an optimal camera angle. Looked like some of the pellets may have deflected upward and not gone through, but it's hard to tell.

What would have been better would have been a crash test or gelatin dummy in seat, with the camera inside the vehicle showing what the shot did.

That's what follow-up shots are for. And as noted, that's number 4 buckshot; 00 will have 2.3 times the weight. Plus, I count at least 17 individual points of penetration in that shot; 1 ounce load of number 4 buck has roughly 21 pellets.

MLeake · July 28, 2009, 10:37 AM

... I wouldn't count on follow-up shots; you'd be lucky to get one follow-up shot (assuming the vehicle is moving).

If the vehicle were immobilized, you'd have less trouble with penetration and deflection through the side window or door, so why shoot through the windshield?

GeauxTide · July 28, 2009, 11:35 AM

Sectional Density doesn't matter, pellet size doesn't matter. A 492 grain projectile, not including the wad, propelled at 1250fps across the room will be devastating if the perp has three overcoats. If you think that's stupid, come to my house and sign the waiver.

Ian0351 · July 28, 2009, 12:20 PM

IBTL?

What was the name of that book Brokaw wrote, The sorta Ok generation? No, it was The Greatest generation, for a reason.
Lets try to keep the name calling down guys... 'cause my grandpa is a gnarly old WWII Ranger and wouldn't take too kindly to you disparaging NASA, GM or the Pacific Campaign...

armsmaster270 · July 28, 2009, 02:30 PM

This may be a dumb question but here goes. What does shooting a windshield have to do with home defense and what are you doing outside with a shotgun after the perps have fled the house?

ADB · July 28, 2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

This may be a dumb question but here goes. What does shooting a windshield have to do with home defense and what are you doing outside with a shotgun after the perps have fled the house?

Nothing--it just came up in relation to why police use buckshot, the answer being that they're not at all worried about overpenetration.

cedjunior · July 28, 2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Cedjunior-
Have you ever even SHOT a shotgun? If so, have you shot one at anything besides a paper target? Exactly what is your experience that makes you such an expert?
I didn't go to the moon, but I read about it. That makes my moon expertise about what yours is regarding shotguns as HD weapons.
I doubt I'll leave anytime soon, but thanks for the offer.

I have more than one shotgun and I've shot 1000's of shells out of them. But it doesn't take all that to understand that tiny super light objects traveling at X speed have significantly less momentum and will strike with significantly less force than a larger heavier object moving at the same X speed. You don't need to be an internet expert who makes unprovable claims that "I've seen so and so happen, I know!" to understand this. I'm sure you're going to tell us how you've "seen".

You want to be the guy who relies on birdshot sometimes working and only under specific circumstances, go ahead.

July 26, 2009, 09:17 PM	#126
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Not to mention landing on the moon! Damn, we were stupid! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

July 26, 2009, 09:50 PM	#127
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	It all comes down to either one can and cannot work how about the guy NYPD hit 13 times with 9mm's and lived. If you don't hit the sweet spot it may not work I don't care if your using a .44. If you have placement a bic pen will work. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

July 27, 2009, 07:30 PM	#130
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	ADB... ... informative video, but on the windshield they didn't use an optimal camera angle. Looked like some of the pellets may have deflected upward and not gone through, but it's hard to tell. What would have been better would have been a crash test or gelatin dummy in seat, with the camera inside the vehicle showing what the shot did. Guess beggars can't be choosers, though. Cheers, M

July 27, 2009, 09:49 PM	#135
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Cedjunior- Have you ever even SHOT a shotgun? If so, have you shot one at anything besides a paper target? Exactly what is your experience that makes you such an expert? I didn't go to the moon, but I read about it. That makes my moon expertise about what yours is regarding shotguns as HD weapons. I doubt I'll leave anytime soon, but thanks for the offer. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

July 27, 2009, 10:34 PM	#137
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Anthropology 101... ... it all comes down to the ability for the colony to breed, and to sustain its numbers, Oneounceload. As my prof explained it, a couple decades ago, with the example of a baboon colony, for female vs male risk taking, and mature vs immature risk taking relative levels. Female vs Male You have 10 females and 10 males. Kill 9 females. There can now be at most one baboon (assuming no twins, etc) born next season, and 10 males are fighting over the one female, possibly leading to further deaths in the colony; or Kill 9 males. You can potentially have 10 young baboons (again assuming no twins etc) born next season, replenishing the colony. The females may fight, but will be busy with the young baboons. The male is probably quite content. Conclusion: In a basic, small colony, males are more expendable, and thus are the ones who should primarily explore, hunt, and gather. (Note: these are baboons, in a small colony, with no technology - as a practical matter, it doesn't apply in our modern society, but evolution can be slow to catch up with technology and social developments) Young vs Old You have 10 immature males, and 10 males of breeding age. Kill 10 mature males; the immature males can't breed yet, Colony numbers stay down for the next season or more, breeding age females may have to hunt and gather, increasing their own risk; or... Kill 10 immature males; the mature males are typically happy to work with the females at replacing them. Replacements born next season. So, if one believes in evolution guiding behavioral tendencies, one would expect young males to be the most oriented toward risk-taking behavior. They're the most expendable. Cheers, M

July 27, 2009, 07:47 PM	#131
Xyas Member Join Date: July 2, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 87	The closest thing I could find is just pistol ammunition through the windshield, couldn't find anything on shotgun buck shot. It's still an interesting article though! http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm

July 27, 2009, 08:29 PM	#133
Xyas Member Join Date: July 2, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 87	Regarding the moon...there are a growing number of people who believe it never happened...just thought I'd throw that out there. (You know, pictures of the flag blowing in the wind...on the moon!) Mythbusters did an episode on that, really good episode!

July 27, 2009, 10:07 PM	#136
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Guys - the bravado of youth through the ages has always lead to the attitude that their parents don't know anything and they know everything. In time, they learn just how stupid they really are.........

July 27, 2009, 10:35 PM	#138
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	What was this thread about again? Oh yes...BUCKSHOT > birdshot __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

July 27, 2009, 10:36 PM	#139
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Ok, it veered off a bit... ... but it did actually relate to some posts. And besides, you have to love baboon colony analogies, no?

July 27, 2009, 10:52 PM	#140
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	i keep coming to this thread, and I keep wanting to post, but then I say to myself, if i dont post, i wont perpetuate the thread, thus, the sooner the thread dies. now we are talking about buck shot and windshield penetration, forefathers walking on the moon, nuclear physics, deer in the living room, young vs old, and now, baboon colony. I'd like to throw my random ass opinion into the mix. Jennifer Love Hewitt did well in portraying Audrey Hepburn in "The Audrey Hepburn Story" __________________ "Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy si vis pacem, para bellum

July 28, 2009, 10:37 AM	#145
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	If shooting at a windshield from a front angle... ... I wouldn't count on follow-up shots; you'd be lucky to get one follow-up shot (assuming the vehicle is moving). If the vehicle were immobilized, you'd have less trouble with penetration and deflection through the side window or door, so why shoot through the windshield?

July 28, 2009, 11:35 AM	#146
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	Lethality Sectional Density doesn't matter, pellet size doesn't matter. A 492 grain projectile, not including the wad, propelled at 1250fps across the room will be devastating if the perp has three overcoats. If you think that's stupid, come to my house and sign the waiver.

July 28, 2009, 12:20 PM	#147
Ian0351 Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 414	IBTL? What was the name of that book Brokaw wrote, The sorta Ok generation? No, it was The Greatest generation, for a reason. Lets try to keep the name calling down guys... 'cause my grandpa is a gnarly old WWII Ranger and wouldn't take too kindly to you disparaging NASA, GM or the Pacific Campaign... __________________ You can have your churches, I'll keep my guns. Just keep your hands off my paycheck and your eyes out of my backyard. Join the Libertarian Party! http://www.lp.org Semper Fidelis

July 28, 2009, 02:30 PM	#148
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	This may be a dumb question but here goes. What does shooting a windshield have to do with home defense and what are you doing outside with a shotgun after the perps have fled the house? __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.