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Old February 18, 2019, 02:47 PM   #76
scatterbrain
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Prehaps Unclenick could prepare a slide demo on what takes place as the case is squeezed up into the full length resizer die? That might show why you cannot bump the shoulder back. Yes, you are resetting a shoulder, but not the same shoulder.
Why do you trim the length after resizing and not before?
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Old February 18, 2019, 03:09 PM   #77
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Quote:
Prehaps Unclenick could prepare a slide demo on what takes place as the case is squeezed up into the full length resizer die? That might show why you cannot bump the shoulder back. Yes, you are resetting a shoulder, but not the same shoulder.
Why do you trim the length after resizing and not before?
I know he has some very good drawings of his own doing he has previously posted.

Think about it. Take a case and measure the overall length. Now resize that case and measure the overall length again. You likely will notice the case is longer than your before measurement. This is why we resize and then trim. When we resize brass there is only one way the brass can go, that would be up.

Go back and look at post #67 with a focus on where BBarn mentions:
Quote:
... case is full length sized, a small amount of case material is moved toward the mouth, with the a bit of the old body now forming the base of the new shoulder, and the base of the neck now containing a bit of the "old" shoulder. And as a result of that sizing process, the neck may have grown enough to need trimming.
Ron
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Old February 18, 2019, 05:15 PM   #78
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Why do you trim the length after resizing and not before?
Who is 'you'. I have a RCBS case trimmer, it was shipped with pilots that were were too large for a sized neck I do not know how long it will take for that to soak in so I will try to explain. The pilots would not fit the neck after sizing. And then "you' used forming dies. Forming dies are my favorite way to trim. When the forming die is used to trim the case the case cases is trimmed to the perfect length

F. Guffey

And if the reloader knows how to size the case and understands head space of the chamber and length of the case from the shoulder to the case head the reloader can size the case to the perfect length when off setting the length of the chamber.

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Old February 18, 2019, 06:57 PM   #79
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My Bad

Guys, I know what happens when I shove the case into the die, I know why I use my RCBS trimmer after sizing.
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Old February 18, 2019, 07:25 PM   #80
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Guys, I know what happens when I shove the case into the die, I know why I use my RCBS trimmer after sizing.
Yeahy, I had a gut feeling about that. That sort of feeling "I think either sarcasm or twisted humor" is at work here. Then too, I figured if he is serious the least I can do is provide what I feel was a good answer. You got me! I have to ask though, with your RCBS trimmer are the pilots all the correct diameter?

Ron
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Old February 19, 2019, 06:20 AM   #81
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"

Quote:
I didn't resize them.
^^^^ THIS ^^^^
Quote:
Upon trying them in my AR10. . . ,
If you are using these in any way, shape, or form in a gas gun -- FULL LENGTH RESIZE* YOURSELF --
(die to contact +maybe 1/16 turn more to slightly cam-over/eliminate press spring)**

* Use a good case lube/like RCBS or similar.
** Do not fool with "bumping" with that AR.

WHAT HE SAID!
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Old February 19, 2019, 08:46 AM   #82
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Reloadron

Maybe another thread for the pilot diameter issue, length trimmer pilots are not an issue, the neck sizing trimmer pilots ?
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Old February 19, 2019, 09:24 AM   #83
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scatterbrain:
Quote:
Maybe another thread for the pilot diameter issue, length trimmer pilots are not an issue, the neck sizing trimmer pilots ?
I was referencing Mr. Guffy's post #78
Quote:
I have a RCBS case trimmer, it was shipped with pilots that were were too large for a sized neck I do not know how long it will take for that to soak in so I will try to explain. The pilots would not fit the neck after sizing.
It was sarcasm.

Ron
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Old February 19, 2019, 10:05 AM   #84
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Quote:
It was sarcasm.
Not on my part; there were reloaders that went into mortal combat with the trimmer when they tried to push the pilot into the case neck. And! at the same time there were reloaders that were so opinionated they insisted the case had to be sized before it could be trimmed. And if I someone disagreed with them they claimed it was a reflection on your mother.

I explained to them I was trimming before sizing, (they did not understand), I explained to them my favorite case trimmer was the case trim/form die and I exolained to them the trim die was the most accurate. I also informed them I had pilots that were designed to be used with fired cases because the pilots would not fit the neck of a sized case. I was thinking some of those reloaders were too tense to reload, I suggested they relax. I did not know if they owned a case trimmer.

Me? one of my first case trimmers has a case holder for sized and non sized cases and it does not use pilots, and I was thinking; these guys are going to need reloading therapist if they do not mature.

F. Guffey
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Old February 19, 2019, 01:09 PM   #85
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Do they have reloading therapist? That would be a great occupation.

While case forming and case trim dies can make for interesting conversation neither has any bearing on the subject matter of the thread at hand. The majority of reloaders present in this forum likely are not forming cases and the general rule of resize or size followed by trim would likely be more the rule than the exception.

Maybe someone should start a thread on case forming be it using a die or fire form method would make for interesting discussion. That said I see no connection with the thread topic at hand. Interesting yes, relevant not so much.

Ron
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Old February 19, 2019, 01:46 PM   #86
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And! at the same time there were reloaders that were so opinionated they insisted the case had to be sized before it could be trimmed
I do not look at reloading through tiny little beady eyes. I have never insisted the case had to be sized before trimming. I have forming/trim dies. I also have trimmers that do not use pilots, I have trimmers that use hack saws and files.

And then there are reloaders that get into mortal combat when they attempt to remove the pilot from the case; now that would not happen to me but once but we still have reloaders that insist the case must be sized before trimming.

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Old February 19, 2019, 02:01 PM   #87
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Why do you trim the length after resizing and not before?
"Why do you" when you is me I trim cases anyway I choose and when. I measure before and again after. I know how much trimming is necessary.

Measuring the length of the case from the end of the neck to the case head: I can measure the length of the case as fast as I can pick then up and put them down, that includes sorting.

And then there is crimping; when crimping it is necessary to have cases with the same length. I have the RCBS case prep center. I also have air craft counter-sinks, if I hate do so something I do not do it, I have never complained about trimming even when I have had to trim 26" of brass from the necks every 100 cases I trim.

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Old February 19, 2019, 02:15 PM   #88
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The OP resized the brass and all is well.
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Old February 19, 2019, 04:01 PM   #89
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Yes, you are resetting a shoulder, but not the same shoulder.
Is that the particle thingy where every particle in the universe reflects every other one so while its not the same they are?

Dang, it looked like the same case coming out that went in.
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Old February 19, 2019, 04:47 PM   #90
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Scatterbrain,

The reason you trim after resizing is resizing is what extrudes the neck longer with some shoulder brass. See black dots in the image below start out on the body and shoulder, but wind up in the shoulder and neck, respectively.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Exaggerated Resizing s.jpg (143.2 KB, 715 views)
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Old February 19, 2019, 06:31 PM   #91
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Thanks Unclenick for creating and contributing your diagrams. They are very helpful learning tool.
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Old February 19, 2019, 08:25 PM   #92
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A good picture is worth a thousand words, thank you, sir.
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Old February 19, 2019, 08:55 PM   #93
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FGuffey, serious question. Are you sometimes drunk when you post? Some of your posts are spot on, concise, and full of knowledge; but some are near mindless rambling?
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Old February 19, 2019, 09:13 PM   #94
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The OP resized the brass and all is well.

Lol, thank you sir.
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Old February 19, 2019, 10:40 PM   #95
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Quote:
Not on my part; there were reloaders that went into mortal combat with the trimmer when they tried to push the pilot into the case neck. And! at the same time there were reloaders that were so opinionated they insisted the case had to be sized before it could be trimmed. And if I someone disagreed with them they claimed it was a reflection on your mother.

I explained to them I was trimming before sizing, (they did not understand), I explained to them my favorite case trimmer was the case trim/form die and I exolained to them the trim die was the most accurate. I also informed them I had pilots that were designed to be used with fired cases because the pilots would not fit the neck of a sized case. I was thinking some of those reloaders were too tense to reload, I suggested they relax. I did not know if they owned a case trimmer.

Me? one of my first case trimmers has a case holder for sized and non sized cases and it does not use pilots, and I was thinking; these guys are going to need reloading therapist if they do not mature.

F. Guffey
Quote:
FGuffey, serious question. Are you sometimes drunk when you post? Some of your posts are spot on, concise, and full of knowledge; but some are near mindless rambling?
Or maybe you are using Google translate to write your posts?

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Old February 22, 2019, 09:11 AM   #96
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FGuffey, serious question. Are you sometimes drunk when you post? Some of your posts are spot on, concise, and full of knowledge; but some are near mindless rambling?
Do you drink? Don't; if you don't, don't start because I believe you are silly enough sober.

If you do not understand just say "I do not understand". In the past as in before me there have been smiths, smiths working at arsenals that thought they were world class. Some of them were called 'Catfish', I understand that is a strange name for someone that thought he was world class other smiths working at the arsenal called him catfish because they thought he was all mouth and no head.

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Old February 22, 2019, 09:53 AM   #97
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Dang, it looked like the same case coming out that went in.
I have said many times there is a lot of stuff that goes on between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel the reloader does not understand.

That does not change when the reloaders starts to size a case. It is unfortunate bench resters starting taking them too seriously before they had a clue. Some of you reloaders have trouble correcting your friends.

One looked at a drawing/animation of the sequences of events that start with the firing pin striking the primer; I asked him if he was omitting a sequence of two, I asked him if he was embellishing the story a little. I asked him if there was any chance he did not consider other factors. Anyhow? he had too many supporters to be mistaken. None of them understood him and he could not explain it.

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Old February 22, 2019, 06:56 PM   #98
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If you do not understand just say "I do not understand". In the past as in before me there have been smiths, smiths working at arsenals that thought they were world class. Some of them were called 'Catfish', I understand that is a strange name for someone that thought he was world class other smiths working at the arsenal called him catfish because they thought he was all mouth and no head.
The problem is not my comprehension. The problem is your gibberish. Do you ever proof read? Somewhat proper usage of punctuation would help. You might be a world class smith, but when it comes to conveying your knowledge, you are a catfish. A male blue cat to be precise.
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Old February 24, 2019, 06:29 PM   #99
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Hmmm.
Quote:
you are a catfish. A male blue cat to be precise.
Now,you might be messing with something ….See,more than a decade ago,I used to enjoy wonderful stories written in In Fisherman magazine...I think the author was Doug Stange. The stories were about the late,legendary Catfisherman, Toad Smith. Toad was a serious trophy Cat Man. Bucket of chicken and some Oreos and the River. I enjoyed those stories.

Up at the top of the list Trophy Cats to pursue ,among Toads favorites was the Big Blue Catfish.In the context of Toad...well,its up to you and what you are trying to say ,I suppose,as to whether Blue Cat is the right catfish.


In my experience,your common,small Bullhead has an annoying habit of showing up when you are really pursuing something else,wasting time by chewing the bait off your hook and sometimes fouling the line,then you have to reel in and start over. They muck up the water,too.

Once again,I'm not sure quite what you are trying to say.

There are Blues,Bullheads,Channels,shovelheads,etc.


This young Woman Hannah is the real deal on catfishing

https://youtu.be/m5f1v-fVQ-w


Blue cat....If you take I-94 north out of Sheridan,Wyo,cross into Montana,you can pick up the Decker road.There is a big coal dragline up that way. You keep going on that road it will get you to Tongue Reservoir,but before you go that far,stop in at the Decker,Montana post office.

Those folks have enough respect for Blue Catfish they have the state record Blue Cat stuffed and on display right there in the Deckers US Post office.
That is a nice fish.

I even know a 24 hr $5 leech vending machine a ways out ...quite a way out,north of Miles city. Heading to Charlie Russell Handy to know about.

Last edited by HiBC; February 24, 2019 at 07:08 PM.
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Old February 24, 2019, 08:50 PM   #100
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The male blue cat has a huge mouth in proportion to the rest of his body.
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