To build a bolt gun or buy LE model?

[mtlucas0311]

Hello everyone, I'd like to fill a very serious void in my gun safe with a bolt gun in .308. My question is, should I pay the money to get the receiver "squared", bolt done, new trigger, Krieger barrel, McMillan stock, etc. etc. or do I just throw in the towel and drop $800 on a Remington LE model. I keep seeing posts about the LE's getting to .5 MOA with Federal 168's, is it worth the money for the custom gun? Are those accuracy claims legitimate? I'd be dabbling in local match shooting, maybe take it out to a farm with friends where we can shoot 600 yards, nothing too serious. I want it mainly cause' they're cool. Also, I do shoot competitively, bullseye pistol I'm good for high 280's so I think it's fair to say that I'm reasonably proficient with a rifle. Thanks for the opinions- Mike

[Citizen Carrier]

Well, since you posted on the competition forum, I'll give you the competition answer.

I'd buy an already built competition rifle.

Champion Shooters Supply has a supply of new and used centerfire NRA high power "match rifles".

Last time I checked they had a Winchester 70 in .308 in match rifle configuration.

Importantly, it had a stripper clip guide milled in so that you can do rapid reloads in a match.

These rifles are primarily for diopter type iron sights, but you could scope them if you want.

[mtlucas0311]

I was a little unsure which area to post, but I'm glad I put it here. I didn't really know it, but I guess I am looking for a competition answer. The concept I do not understand is why buy a high dollar custom match rifle if out of the box a Savage or Remington or who ever will shoot .5" groups? Are these claims exagerated? Is there some aspect of highpower shooting that I am not considering? I have to admit, my expierience is limited to Marine Corps qualifying (200,300,500 KD range) and what I've seen at Camp Perry when I shoot bulls eye (pistol).

[4EVERM-14]

One difference between the custom and manufactured rifles is that the custom guns have things like a clip slot,accessory rail,for the handstop and turned muzzle for mounting a front sight to name a few. Also the stocks on over the counter guns are general purpose. They are well made but may not be the most comfortable for position shooting. My Remington shoots well but is not a good prone rifle because of the poor stock design.
As for accuracy remember that Savage and Remington and the others build lots of gun per week. Compare that to the custom riflesmith who may produce one rifle for a specific purpose with accessories chosen by the intended user. Both may shoot well but the custom gun that fits the shooter will be more pleasurable to shoot.

[Ken O]

You didn't say what kind of competition you were wanting it for. If for cross the course you will need a clip slot, but if for prone mid-range, long range or Palma you only need to single load.

I have an Alan Warner custom built Palma rifle that I use for competiions myself. But Savage has competition rifles ready to go, they have an F/tr rifle and most resently a Palma rifle that are competiion ready at a very low price. Team Savage has been shooting these rifles in long range competiions around the world and doing very well. They claim they are shooting "out of the box" rifles with no modifications. Quite a few of these are popping up on the line and the guys seem to really like them. So that is another alternative, I think they are about 1200 bucks or so, but not sure.

[Citizen Carrier]

If you are unsure what type of rifle competition you want to shoot in, I'll just say that cross the course NRA high power is likely going to be the most easy to find and common matches held.

Of course, if you live in Michigan you are a lot closer to the Palma matches they hold at Camp Grayling. It is a bit of a drive for me living in Ohio, so I have resisted the urge to get one of Savage's Palma guns.

That being said, there is one feature on any bolt action for cross couse NRA HP that cannot be overlooked.

A five shot magazine capacity.

Unless you are getting one of those Remington custom shop "X" series rifles, you aren't likely to find a standard Remington or Savage in .308 with a five shot magazine.

That's why I suggest getting a new or used match rifle rather than just a LE type patrol rifle or the like.

Take a look at this baby.



http://www.mtguns.com/tika.htm

That's where they sell those. I came very close to buying one of these, but I decided to go a more traditional match rifle route with a 1970s vintage Model 70 in 30-06.

[kraigwy]

Wow, I like that rifle. Just checked their web site, they dont make it in 223 anymore. It would be perfect with a 223 in a 1 in 7 barrel in my opinion.

[mtlucas0311]

Thanks for all the info guys, but it appears obvious to me that I need to do a little reading on the NRA website and get clue what type of competition I would lean towards. I always think of service rifle when I think rifle competition, because thats all I've ever actually done, a bit silly since I'm asking about bolt guns (not to offend anyone who uses an 03' or 1917). Also I realize that I pretty much pictured having the old glass crutch on top of the receiver (I always prod my buddy at pistol matches for having a scope and not knowing what real sight alignment or sight picture is); and I really don't know if that eliminates alot of the different matches. Thanks again - Mike

[Ken O]

If you want to shoot with a scope, you might be interested in F-Class competion, which is prone but allows a front rest or bipod also besides a scope. It is getting real popular around here. There is a F/tr class that is for .308 and .223 requiring a bipod which is another option and a great way to get started since you decided on a .308.

You have several place around you that you can shoot, the closest looks like Blue Water in Port Huron, they have 600 yard competion. Washtenaw also has them, and you could drive up here to Camp Grayling for the 1000 yard ones. PM me and I can put you in touch with the match director of the range you want to shoot. Ken

[mtlucas0311]

What does the length of the season look like, I'm going to guess it has to wrap up by sometime in September? Start sometime near May or June? That sounds like it would be a pretty good way to start shooting rifle, aside from service rifle.

[Ken O]

There are quite a few matches left this year. Here is a link:
http://www.michrpa.com/PDFS/2008%20M...gComposite.pdf


It looks like Blue Water is done, but you might check with them to see if there is some practice matches left.

If you have a service rifle, you are all set for XTC (cross the course) or midrange (600 yard prone) matches.

If you need any help email me though this site and I will be glad to help any way I can. As you see I am in the northern part of the state, so I am not real familiar with your area, but can point you to the people who can help there.

In a couple weeks Cadillac has a two day match, a XTC on Saturday and a 600 yard prone (3X600) on Sunday. Shooters can camp or bunk in the clubhouse for free.

The following weekend at Camp Grayling is a Palma on Saturday and a 3X1000 on Sunday. Shooters can camp on the range, or stay on base in the barracks for free. If you are interested in this let me know.

[mtlucas0311]

I've got an AR but its an old SP-1, so I wouldn't want to shoot it in a match. I did pick up a Colt lower years ago that was billed as a "match" lower. It came with a jewell trigger and has a more elaborate emblem on the left side over the serial # which is prefixed with "SR". To be honest, I have no idea if it is really match grade or a gimmick (says "match target, tactical elite"?). I had planned on geting a Fulton Armory NM upper, but there seems to be some friction there after reading some posts here; so I decided I should just go to Perry durring the National Matches and ask around. After realizing I really don't know what I'd want to shoot, I figured I'd just get a Savage (they make one with a McMillan stock) or a 700P, shoot what I can and worry about a specialty gun later.

[Ken O]

It sounds like your lower will be just fine, to be service rife compliant it needs to have at least a 4 1/2 pound trigger pull. There are probably more White Oak uppers on the line than anything and they are very resonable. Compass Lake is another popular upper for a little more money. I don't know anything about the Fulton Armory, I haven't seen any on the line, but I would think they would be just fine also. You might find a used upper from someone that is going to a match rifle, over on nationalmatch.com they show up quite often, I think there is a couple over there right now.

For the longer range stuff (800+ yards) I think the bolt action you have in mind would be the ticket. The .308 is a good way to go because you can shoot Palma matches also, or you can put a bipod and scope one it and shoot it in F/tr class. It also has a real long barrel life. For the mid-range matches (600 yards) a .223 works real well, I see quite a few Savage bolt actions on the line, 6BR is a popular round for this yardage. Of course the .308 works real well also.

Just make sure the stock is match ready with a rail for the handguard/sling, or bipod if you go F/tr. We are lucky to have so many ranges in this state, and also a 1000 yards. Some fellows just go back from a match in the U.P. where they put a new 1000 yard range in at Watson.

[mtlucas0311]

Thanks for all the info Ken, I think I'm going to start a new thread about a service rifle upper as it's outside the scope of this thread. I'm happy to hear praise for the Savage, I've been close to buying a Savage a couple of times (like in the store with the money close) but something always pushes me away from it. Does it seem strange that they only use a 24" barrel on that type of rifle? I know it's only 2 inches, but it seems EVERYBODY goes 26".