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Old June 1, 2009, 12:11 AM   #1
antsi
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Vertical Stringing

I've always had a tendency to do this, but the last time I was at the range it was really marked. I was shooting a CMP garand at an SR-1 target at 100 yards and painted a beautiful line of holes right up and down the middle of the black. I was using the CMP greek surplus ammo, but I don't see how I can blame this on the ammo. Obviously my R-L sight picture is doing fine; you could have run a straight edge through my shots. I do believe the problem is my sight picture and not getting a consistent appearance on the vertical. I use the "lollipop" sight picture, but sometimes it is hard to tell if I am getting a bit of overlap or a bit of space between the target and the top of the front sight post.

I did improve with later groups, but I don't know exactly what I was doing differently.

Any tips?

PS - I don't have this problem with optical sights - only irons. Problem is, all my favorite guns to shoot are iron sighted.

PPS - one iron sighted rifle that I don't vertical string is an old target .22 with a "bulbed" front sight post. There's a gold dot sitting at the top of the post and it is very easy for me to consistently put that gold dot in the middle of the target. The plain iron front sight post like most military rifles have is giving me fits though.

PPPS - I used to shoot a fair amount in High Power and once thought about using an aperture front sight for this problem. Does that help? Obviously I'd rather cure the problem on my end than spend my way out of it.
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Old June 1, 2009, 12:24 AM   #2
the rifleer
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im no expert, but you may be flinching. At home make sure the rifle is completely unloaded, then place a coin on the barrel and hold it in the firing position, aim, and dry fire the rifle. if the coin falls off you are flinching.

I had the same problem, but dry firing helped me a lot.

another trick is go to the range with a friend. turn around so that you cannot see what he/she is doing. tell them to randomly either chamber or not chamber a round, then close the bolt and hand it back to you. This way you never know when the rifle is actually loaded. then fire as you normally do at a target. Have them watch you. When they hand you the rifle unloaded and you pull the trigger, they will see you flinch.

if you arent flinching then its probably just your trigger pull. One mistake lots of people make is they fit the trigger on the first joint on their finger. this is not correct.

practice a long slow squeeze, don't jerk the trigger.

i have a friend that swears that its the sights and that he shoots so much better with a scope, but the truth is that if you don't practice you will never get better. I can shoot well with pretty much any gun i pick up, even if i haven't shot it before. its just a matter of a consistent trigger pull and lining up the sights the same way every single time. it sounds simple, but its can be difficult to learn if you aren't disciplined in correcting yourself. it just takes practice, thats all.
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Old June 1, 2009, 02:13 AM   #3
MacGille
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Tighten the friction lock on your rear sight, the aperature is moving from recoil and changing your sight alignment.
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Old June 1, 2009, 02:49 AM   #4
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my guess is the ammo
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Old June 1, 2009, 03:07 AM   #5
antsi
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Tighten the friction lock on your rear sight, the aperature is moving from recoil and changing your sight alignment.
That could explain why it got better - I did make a sight adjustment, so I had to loosen and re-tighten the sight lock bar (old style Garand rear sight). If it was loose to begin with and then I tightened it effectively, that would explain how it suddenly got better.

Not sure about the flinching/trigger jerking theory. I doubt I could flinch or jerk in an exact vertical line without any R-L deviation. Also, if it was a flinch or a trigger mechanics problem it would probably affect my shooting no matter what kind of sights I am using - this problem only seems to affect me with solid post iron sights.

Would be nice to blame it on the ammo.

Still, I do think I need to work on getting a consistent sight picture in the vertical relationship between the front post and the target.
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Old June 1, 2009, 05:43 AM   #6
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I do the same, i have wondered if is the way i pull the gun down into the rest i use(whatever gear bag or towel i have in the trunk) deflecting the barrel a bit....or my tired old eyes being able to line up on something horizontally, but not quite being a good judge of heigth on my blurry vertical sight picture. Whatever it is, it's almost too perfect to chalk up to the ammo, and i only do it with iron sights, this is a 308 with a uber-large rear aperture.

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Old June 1, 2009, 07:50 AM   #7
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doh ...
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Old June 1, 2009, 07:56 AM   #8
wingman
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Purchase a good front rest such as some of the Caldwell line if your shooting for small groups only way to go with iron or scope sights.
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Old June 1, 2009, 08:41 AM   #9
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I could be wrong but I read from a different forum that improper breath control will cause vertical stringing.
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Old June 1, 2009, 11:59 AM   #10
30Cal
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Either the rear sight isn't holding tension (see the field manual section on regular maintenance) or the handguards are pinched.
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Old June 1, 2009, 06:09 PM   #11
P5 Guy
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Verticle String

Do you take the Gun and stock apart every time you clean?
Do you hold the same site picture?
I would not field strip the rifle, take it out of the stock, but once a year for a clean and lube. You can clean the bore and grease the moving parts without removing the stock. This may be a problem if you use corrosive ammo. My M1 takes up to 20 shots to settle into the stock after disassembling it.
I like to use a 6 o'clock hold plus a small line of white between the post and the bull. I find I can hold a better site picture that way.
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Old June 2, 2009, 01:20 AM   #12
antsi
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My M1 takes up to 20 shots to settle into the stock after disassembling it.
Interesting tip. Yes, I disassemble the rifle every time I clean it, after every time I shoot it. And it was about my second and third clip when my groups started to tighten up vertically.
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Old June 2, 2009, 09:31 AM   #13
stubbicatt
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Sight alignment, trigger control, breathing.

Sight alignment discrepancies will cause this effect on the target, as will breathing.

Sight alignment is about 5x more important than sight placement. Concentrate on centering up the sights the same each time. Concentrate on front sight in focus, target blurred. Try to fire your shot at the point in your natural breathing cycle where you are at the end of your natural exhalation, before beginning to inhale.

Most folks find a 6 o'clock hold with iron sights helps their grouping, as a point of aim/point of impact coincidence will tend to obscure the target.

HTH.

Blaming your rifle or ammunition for a failure of technique will lead to great frustration. Inaccurate rifles or loads will scatter the bullet strikes all around the target, not in a neat vertical line. That is a breathing issue most likely. Flinching or not pulling the trigger straight back will affect the rounds differently.

While bedding the action in the stock, or awaiting a natural process that takes a few shots is a genuine phenomenon, the shots will scatter, not string vertically, until the action finds its natural bedding point in the stock.
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Old June 2, 2009, 12:06 PM   #14
Art Eatman
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Not saying some of the above ideas are not causal, but one thing which will cause vertical stringing is the binding of a front barrel band. The expansion of the barrel with heat changes the "push" of the stock against the barrel.

That's why target ARs and many bolt guns have free-floating barrels.

If it's possible to have the barrel bands on the loose side so there's no binding, the vertical-string problem can sometimes be reduced.
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Old June 2, 2009, 01:25 PM   #15
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Are you benching or prone? If the latter, I'll agree with this:

Quote:
I could be wrong but I read from a different forum that improper breath control will cause vertical stringing.
My shots were stringing vertically from prone due to not firing consistently with my breathing. In...Out...Pause...Shoot. In...Out...Pause...Shoot.
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Old June 2, 2009, 01:32 PM   #16
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CortJestir gets a +1 from me.

If benched, look at the gun. Bedding, rear sight wobbling in channel, etc. Mechanical issues with the gun.

If prone, look at yourself. Sight alignment, sight picture, respiratory pause, sling tension, butt of the stock tight into your shoulder pocket consistently.
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Old June 2, 2009, 01:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
...sometimes it is hard to tell if I am getting a bit of overlap or a bit of space between the target and the top of the front sight post.
I try to keep a tiny bit of white between the top of the post and the bottom of the bull, but I try to get that strip of white as small as possible. If everything's working right, I can push the sight right up against the bottom of the bull leaving a tiny strip of white but with the top of the sight so close to the black that it almost looks like it's flattening the bottom of the bull.
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Old June 2, 2009, 02:52 PM   #18
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i have wondered if is the way i pull the gun down into the rest i use
Could be this. Check yourself when shooting off the bench. Leaning into the stock/putting downward pressure on the front bag can cause this.

You have a lot of good suggestions here. Just make sure you change one thing at a time so you know for sure what's up.
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Old June 2, 2009, 08:41 PM   #19
alloy
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Quote:
You have a lot of good suggestions here.
It sounds like a trip to the range to sort this out!
Breathing, good rest, sling tension...
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Old June 3, 2009, 10:22 AM   #20
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It's all about consistency my brother. That's when you can begin to narrow down whether it's the gun, the ammo, or you...
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Old June 3, 2009, 10:39 AM   #21
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Having coached the AK NG Rifle team for years, I've noticed that most vertical stringings can be cause by at least three differant reasons:

Breathing: Breathing while shooting the string instead of stopping the breath as the trigger is pulled.

Improper or loose sling: Sling not high enough on the arm, loose and slipping etc.

Poor position: Loose position, elbow and/or knees slipping during the string.

Another, rare posibility is loose rear sight, thats a simple check, put your thumb on the rear sight and see if you can push it down. This is not likely the case as you would notice the differant impact between strings.

The Cure is to have a coach w/spotting scope watch you shoot. Seeing which bullet is where. Is the first round on, and the string walks up, etc.

Go to the CMP website, (bookstore) and get a copy of the USAMU Service Rifle Guide. Best $6.95 you can spend for rifle shooting.
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Old June 3, 2009, 11:09 AM   #22
Thermodyne
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How old are you, looks like eye sight to me. You might want to try a small peep. A stick on disk can be had for pennies and if it works then invest in an iron replacement.
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Old June 3, 2009, 08:01 PM   #23
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Breathing, breathing, & breathing

old Sneaky Pete here. TRUST ME!! vertical stringing IS caused by improper breathing--PERIOD. In the military there is an acromincalled B.R.A.S.S. =Breath Relax Aim Slak Squeeze. Take a breath -let it out -take another breath-let it out to the "Normal Pause" hold and squeeze off the round--you want to get the same lung preasure every time- NEVER hold your breath mmore than 15 seconds. You need to do this every shot--consistancy rules. THANX--SNEAKY
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