Inspecting transfered firearms.

[JoeSixpack]

So yesterday I picked up 4 guns from my FFL.
A little brackground.
This is a transfer only FFL, they work out of their house.
Their prices are good and they're close..But I ran into a bit of a problem with them yesterday.

I filled out the form and then asked them to hold off on the transfer while I inspected the guns incase one had a glaring defect.

It was at this point they informed me they would not ship a gun back.
The only time they would do that is if I was denied.

So my options was take them as-is.. or.. hell I don't know what other option I had.

They told me they had nothing to do with the guns, they don't keep stock and im buying the gun from the original FFL not them!, All they do is transfers.

At this point Im sensing they're being defensive and I explained I understood that and I was not holding them responsible but if a gun had a obvious problem they would not ship it back? at my cost? flatly.. the answer was no.

I would have to handle that on my own.. but the problem is most shops consider the gun used once it transfers to a unlicensed person.

Most shops warn of inspecting before transfer.
I've always gotten that same advice and It seems sound to me.

Honestly I think the FFL just does not wanna deal with such a problem and only cared about doing the transfer and collecting their money.

At this point it was quickly turning into a argument so I just paid them and left only checking to make sure the guns was the actual guns.

Thankfully I see no issues with the guns after I got them home but I wanted input from everyone on this.

Im currently checking for other FFL's but they're either much higher or much further away.
This was not the first time I'd used this FFL either counting the 4 I picked up I transferred 9 guns in total using them 3 different times in the past.

I'd always looked at the guns but apparently me mentioning shipping back if defective was the magic phrase this time to set off a argument.

Thoughts?

[Aguila Blanca]

A "kitchen table" FFL who mostly just does transfers is obviously not interested in the gun, only in his fee for processing the paperwork. After all, that is what he's being paid for, and nothing else.

That said, the possibility of a an incoming firearm having a problem that calls for its being returned is part of the business. He should understand that and be prepared to deal with it. Once he gets the gun, it has to be entered into his bound book. When it leaves him, it gets entered again (or, more accurately, the disposition column on the same line in the book gets filled out). If you accept that he has earned his transfer fee whether he transfers it to you or back to where it came from, he really should be prepared to send it back. It doesn't cost any more to put the originating FFL in the disposition column rather than you, and he doesn't have to make the NICS phone call.

But ... he has to take the gun to a post office or UPS or FedEx office to send it back, and that's probably what he doesn't want to do. If you're willing to pay a reasonable fee to compensate him for his time, he should be willing to handle that. If he's not willing, I think you need to find a new FFL.

Also, don't even start to fill out the transfer papers until after you have inspected the firearm.

[rock185]

I did have an FFL return a new gun at my expense one time. Wasn't an issue at all. Perhaps time to consider another FFL? You're right, once a gun is transferred to a non-FFL, it is considered used.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

...I think the FFL just does not wanna deal with such a problem and only cared about doing the transfer and collecting their money....

Sure looks like that's his business model. It's illegal, so if that doesn't meet your needs, you'll need to find a different FFL to work with for transfers.

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

...Im currently checking for other FFL's but they're either much higher...

Well maybe one reason the guy you just used is so cheap is that he does as little as he can. Service, quality, price -- choose two.

[JoeSixpack]

Oh Im already looking for another FFL.

Everything was great in the past, cheap, close and met legal requirements.
I didn't really care they was working out of their house.
I guess I just said the magic words this time to set off an argument.. In a way im glad it came up before I got a gun in that wasn't right.

I've been emailing FFL's out of gunbrokers FFL search and one of the questions im asking is if they'd ship back if a gun came in with a obvious defect.

[SauerGrapes]

I doubt it happens all that often.
I've also seen guys advertise ''free shipping'', but fail to warn the buyer, he is not responsible for lost or damage during the shipping. I make sure insurance is included in the shipping price.

[jonnyc]

You have to inspect the gun, at very least to confirm the weapon and serial numbers are correct.

[JoeSixpack]

I'd say half the shops do not give you a invoice with SN's on it impossible to prove you bought a particular gun.

I hate that and end up having to contact the shop for a serialized invoice.

[FrankenMauser]

I've been emailing FFL's out of gunbrokers FFL search and one of the questions im asking is if they'd ship back if a gun came in with a obvious defect.

Don't be surprised if the only answer you get is, "Sure, as long as YOU'RE paying for it!"

Firearms that don't meet your expectations are not their problem.
It's an issue that you are expected to take up with the seller (or manufacturer).
Kitchen table FFLs doing $20 transfers are there for the transfer, not for customer service.

In a full service gun shop, feel free to take offense if they're unwilling to do a bit more than just a transfer. But not with a kitchen table FFL...

[JoeSixpack]

If you read my first post you would realize it was not an matter of paying for it.. the answer was flatly no.

and it's not a matter of a gun not meeting expectations If a gun arrived cut in half do you really expect me to take possession of it?

Ok maybe that's unrealistic but broken trigger, broken safety levers stuff like that is not unheard of on a NIB gun, Knowing full well once it's transferred to you, you're screwed.

Is it really to much to expect for a "kitchen table ffl" to still be professional? come off it.

[JohnKSa]

I've run across even regular gunshops that have the policy that they won't take back new guns. Their policy is that if there's a problem with the gun then it's the manufacturer's responsibility, not theirs. I can kind of see their point--they aren't affiliated with the maker of the guns and they don't feel like they should be held responsible for the maker's screw-ups.

Ok maybe that's unrealistic but broken trigger, broken safety levers stuff like that is not unheard of on a NIB gun, Knowing full well once it's transferred to you, you're screwed.

The manufacturer (assuming they're remotely reputable) will take care of you and should even cover shipping costs. Which, if you think about it is actually cheaper for you than having to pay the FFL to handle it for you. Of course it might not be especially convenient for you--but perhaps the FFL feels the same way that you do about being inconvenienced.

Is it really to much to expect for a "kitchen table ffl" to still be professional?

I agree that it would have been more professional for them to state their terms up front, before you placed the order, but other than that, what they're doing is not much different from at least some of the gun shops around here.

In a full service gun shop, feel free to take offense if they're unwilling to do a bit more than just a transfer.

Yup, there's a reason that full service gun shops typically charge more. You're getting more--or at least there's the possibility of getting more. Those who want full service have to realize that what it costs to provide that service gets wrapped into the prices. Those who aren't willing to pay full service prices shouldn't expect to get full service.

... if a gun had a obvious problem they would not ship it back? at my cost? flatly.. the answer was no.

Maybe that's just a policy they made up, maybe there's some reason it's a problem for them to ship guns out, I don't know. But it's their business and they get to make the rules. IMO, the only way they screwed up on this was not making their policy clear before you placed the order.

[JoeSixpack]

I'd agree with you John.. after the transfer.

I heard back from one of the FFL's, same price, no problem with shipping back at my cost (typically around 35)
oh and it's an actual guns shop.. SO I guess those of you who see nothing wrong with this sort of behavior out of a FFL just have low standards.

Only problem is the shop is 20 miles away instead of 4 which kinda sucks.

[jonnyc]

"I'd say half the shops do not give you a invoice with SN's on it impossible to prove you bought a particular gun. I hate that and end up having to contact the shop for a serialized invoice."

You're probably right, I had used guns in mind.

[JoeSixpack]

John you did say something that got me thinking though.

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

The manufacturer (assuming they're remotely reputable) will take care of you and should even cover shipping costs. Which, if you think about it is actually cheaper for you than having to pay the FFL to handle it for you.

You might actually have a good point here.

But honestly would anyone want to take possession of a broken out of the box gun and go this route? (open question to everyone)

[FrankenMauser]

If you read my first post you would realize it was not an matter of paying for it.. the answer was flatly no.

and it's not a matter of a gun not meeting expectations If a gun arrived cut in half do you really expect me to take possession of it?

Ok maybe that's unrealistic but broken trigger, broken safety levers stuff like that is not unheard of on a NIB gun, Knowing full well once it's transferred to you, you're screwed.

Is it really to much to expect for a "kitchen table ffl" to still be professional? come off it.

I did read the first post. But if your communication(s) with other FFLs are not very clear, they're likely to infer that you're asking for them to eat shipping cost. ...A shipping cost that's likely to be higher than what they charge for a transfer. No business man is going to agree to return shipping, unless it's absolutely clear that you are paying.


So, in your hypothetical situation...
Broken gun. You're upset. You don't want it. So you want to make it someone else's problem and pin it on the FFL?

It's not their problem, nor their responsibility. They didn't sell it. They didn't ship it. They didn't transport it. They didn't pay for it.
It's your firearm - for better or for worse.

Having the FFL in the middle just complicates matters for all parties, and they are not obligated to do anything for you. And when you seek out the cheapest possible transfer fee, you can't expect any more service than, "fill this out, here's your gun."
Generally speaking: If you want better service, you have to pay for it.

But honestly would anyone want to take possession of a broken out of the box gun and go this route?

No one wants to take possession of a firearm that shows up damaged.
But some one has to do it. Shipping damage does happen. New firearms do show up with problems.
If it's new, a reputable manufacturer will take care of it at no cost to you. Just document the damage/defect before the transfer, document in more detail when you get home, and call the warranty/service department when they're open.

If it's a used firearm, then the issue must be taken up with the seller. They may need to file a claim with the shipper. Or they made need to pay for missing/broken parts. Or you may have to negotiate a return/refund.

No one wants to have a firearm show up at the FFL with damage or functional issues.
But it's not the FFL's fault.
Expecting the FFL to take responsibility for issues with a firearm that was shipped to them solely for a transfer is like expecting your mail box to take responsibility for a package that got shredded in a sorting center.

[JohnKSa]

But honestly would anyone want to take possession of a broken out of the box gun and go this route? (open question to everyone)

No, I wouldn't like that. That's part of why I very rarely order guns any more. I wait until I can find it at a gun show or at a local shop so I can look it over before I make any decisions.

But by the same token, it makes perfect sense that the FFL wouldn't want to take responsibility either. All they did was provided a shipping destination location and performed the necessary paperwork/recordkeeping. They didn't make the gun, pack or ship the gun, they aren't affiliated with the maker/shipper and the gun never even belonged to them. It's very logical and reasonable for them to want to avoid taking any responsibility for the condition of the gun or for having to help deal with problems that arose from circumstances totally beyond their control.

SO I guess those of you who see nothing wrong with this sort of behavior out of a FFL just have low standards.

There's another option.

I see nothing wrong with the behavior (other than they should have let you know about the policy up front) but I generally don't patronize full retail brick & mortar gunshops with policies like that. If I'm going to pay full service prices, I want to receive full service--or at least to have the option to receive full service if the need arises.

When I order from a kitchen table FFL who pretty much only does transfers (and I've done my share of that over the years), I do so to try to get the best price possible. I understand that the reduction in price isn't free and don't expect them to offer the same level of service as a full retail brick & mortar shop.

[dogtown tom]

I transfer around 2,000 firearms a year, the vast majority of them are new in box firearms. I only have to return about four guns a year, and in each case the seller provided an return shipping label within a couple of days. the "hassle factor" is low.

Nearly all of the online retailers (Bud's, Kentucky Gun, CDNN, Palmetto, etc) tell the buyer/transferee to "inspect the firearm before taking possession". This doesn't mean detail stripping that new Glock at my dining table.....is it the G19 gen4 you ordered or a G17gen 3? If it's not what you ordered don't take possession.

Is the front sight on your new Century AK canted? Then don't take possession.
Does the "all matching" 1923 DWM Luger have a Triple K magazine with the serial# written in Sharpie? Then don't take possession.

If the gun isn't what you paid for.....do not sign the Form 4473. It matters not one bit whether your FFL refuses to ship it back. Either he retains possession or the seller sends him a shipping label. As transferee, YOU need to contact the seller and arrange for the return of the firearm. The seller can send an return shipping label to the dealer and even arrange pickup at the dealers premises.

I've never heard of a dealer who refuses to return a firearm. It's part of doing business as an FFL. If your FFL refuses?...............walk out. There will always be a dealer who wants your business.