*How do you defend yourself against a terrorist on a plane with a knife?*

parabellum9x19 · September 12, 2001, 01:12 AM

Based on what happened today, how do you defend yourself against a terrorist on a plane with a knife when you can't bring a weapon on a plane yourself?

PUMC_TomG · September 12, 2001, 02:40 AM

This is easy...depending on how many subjects there are. I'd call a Marine Corps shout, and motivate everyone to go after them. Even 5 or 6 knifemen versus 80 or so motivated attackers are sure to buy the farm. Tactically, I would use my belt most likely...or possibly a coup baton. I would depending on their style attempt to initially break the weapon arm, followed by a disarm and a quick attack to the vitals.
Another idea would be to use your seat cushion. Anyone stabbing or slicing will meet firm resistance with the cushion which will give me the one second or so to take them out.

September 12, 2001, 03:29 AM

Agreed...convincing the others to "rush them" is a sure fire method. The only reason that I can think of why they didn't do this on three of the four planes is probably because they didn't know that the terrorists were set on crashing the planes. Hollywood had taught us that the FBI can negotiate anything.

Jorah Lavin · September 12, 2001, 04:14 AM

of an American plane will be mobbed and torn limb from limb.

I also suspect that the next attack will come in a different way, just as gruesome and horrifying, and just as hard to predict.

Gods help us in the next days and months.

-J.

ATeaM · September 12, 2001, 04:59 AM

Yep, the people didn't realize the terrorists were going to crash the plane. Too many news reports of Rambo wannabes interfering in bank robberies and what not, losing their life and causing the deaths of others keeps most from interfering.

However, the crew is a whole other story.

Why are pilots not armed ? I bet they will be now. That and a more secure cockpit.

Oh, and an automatic pilot that prevents non authorized pilots from flying the plane. Technology should be in place so that Air traffic control can guide the plane from the ground.

But, to answer your original question; What can you do if a terrorist has a knife pointed at you ? Kick him in the nuts and choke him to death with his towel.

UK2TX · September 12, 2001, 09:15 AM

80 people rushing 5 or 6 knifemen?, the only problem is that the narrow gaps between / over the seats would allow a couple of people at most to come at the person at any one time. I've been envolved in fist fights in similarly constrained environments and can assure you that two people side by side can defend their selves very ably!

As for the pilots, most do not even lock the aluminum door to the cabin, I would have thought that after the several "air rage" attacks recently the FAA would have mandated the locking of such doors.

Regards,

UK2TX

PaladinX13 · September 12, 2001, 11:24 AM

This latest case is the exception... hopefully not what will become a rule. As rules go, most hijackings end "peacefully"... and in fact the bravery of those who acted on the Boston flight would be a terrible and foolish tragedy if we didn't have the bigger picture. We must realize that those on the Boston flight DIDN'T survive either... which means the terrorists still "win". I believe that by and large, our best bet would be to "fight" by providing intel... if you believe in sacrifice.

I agree with Jorah, they will modify their tactics... so this "What If" situation is loaded against us. But if you want to play the statistics, just wait.

gereg · September 12, 2001, 11:46 AM

Best bet is the seat cushion. 3-4 inches of dense foam and attached to the seat with velcro so its quick and easy to get loose. BG with a box knife couldn't do much unless his arms are long enough to reach past the cushion.

As for the cockpit doors, they have knobs like hotel room doors--if the door is closed it is locked. However, an agressive 12 year old could knock it down with 2 or 3 kicks. Best bet for better security there would be .100" thick stainless steel sheet in the door and vault-door type locking bolts. Might add 100 lbs but would pay for itself the first time a terrorist or air-rager couldn't get into the cockpit. Add 2 armed cockpit crewmen and we're flying safe and secure again.

AdrenalineJunky · September 12, 2001, 12:01 PM

All they had to do was kill the pilots. After that, barring the possibility of having a pilot on board as a passenger, I don't think there'd be much the passengers could do.

AdrenalineJunky · September 12, 2001, 12:08 PM

All they had to do was kill the pilots. After that, barring the possibility of having a pilot on board as a passenger, I don't think there'd be much the passengers could do.

Cheapo · September 12, 2001, 12:20 PM

Aww, given enough fuel (= TIME), I think we could get any state's highway patrol to clear a few miles of freeway.

Then any pair of reasonably competent passengers could be talked through the landing gear sequence and so forth, and then just idle the thing down to land.

It's just gotta be a few miles without any overpasses! Even in PA, that might mean a 2-lane remains the best bet...

Being the type of carried a bladder canteen in my carry-on baggage to Hawaii, I've also been known to carry one of those almost under-engineered plastic knives. Entering and staying a known disarmed victim zone always makes me nervous.

PaladinX13 · September 12, 2001, 12:40 PM

Assuming you're not attacking a suicidal pilot who sends you into a dive the instant you initiate an attack... can you defeat him, get him out of the way, learn to operate a radio, and get out of a dive... in time? Perhaps.

Coltdriver · September 12, 2001, 01:35 PM

I always have a small but razor sharp pocketknife in my pocket.

So, you say your prayers, decide you have everything to gain and nothing more to lose and you go Yankee crazy or Rebel crazy on em and slash away at the hijacker while you are screaming for others to help you.

You'd probably inspire some help.

As for landing that big bird if the pilot was disabled, that is another story. There are over 10,000 runways in the US so getting to one should not be that tough. Flying a plane is not that hard. Landing a big jet is a very high skill task. I believe most private pilots could be talked through it, but a non pilot, I doubt it.

Erich · September 12, 2001, 02:53 PM

I suspect no one's going to be having small pocketknives, razor sharp or not, in their pockets on airplanes anymore.

Under-engineered plastic knives, either.

David Howard · September 12, 2001, 03:42 PM

I believe the decrease in crime on the streets is due partly to CCW. Don't see much difference on the street & on a plane. I bet most everyone on board wished someone was armed. Some calibers might overpenetrate & lead to decompression or loss of hydraulics but in the end the result will be the same for those on board & maybe better for those on the ground. They should at least go back to having sky marshalls or arm crew members.

eyeball · September 12, 2001, 04:59 PM

only about half of the plane's popluation could fight off 5 or 6 knifed terrorists cause you have to think about the elderly and children.

anyways, I was thinking about rushing a kinfeman with luggage and then after that he and I would be in a wrestling match.

but then again, one of his gay friends might come up from behind and stab me while were are struggling for possession of the kinfe.

Dave3006 · September 12, 2001, 05:35 PM

This is a good discussion. Because most martial artists I have talked to say they would just run if someone had a knife. This is one of many scenarios where running won't work. I think if we are honest, we can admit that no martial art can really level the playing field when you are up against a blade. You have a slim chance of winning. Of course, especially in this case, you have to try. There are some good ideas posted on improvised weapons and shields. It isn't much. But, it is all you have.

Dave

Fatcat · September 12, 2001, 07:47 PM

"The most dangerous man is the one who's got nothing to lose."

I usually don't pack a chute with me when I fly, so I can't bail out the door. And I certainly will not just curl up and whimper. What's left to do? Take a deep breath, and go berzerk. Good to see many others on this board have the same idea.

I ain't a martial artist, but they had better be good with a blade, cause I'm gonna keep fighting till the last drop of blood falls out of my body. If at least 1/4 of the others on the plane did the same, it would be easy.

As for landing it, the undersides of those things are built for skidding along the ground, aren't they? At least for a bit? Seems like you'd have a much larger chance of survival that way. Don't know if I could bring it down smoothly, but I think I could get it down soft enough to skid instead of smash. Maybe.

parabellum9x19 · September 12, 2001, 10:56 PM

seat cushion idea is good. I would use my keys between my fingers to punch. Leather belt sounds good too.

I think we need armed sky sheriffs.

eyeball · September 13, 2001, 12:19 AM

HELL NO we don't need armed sheriffs aboard airplanes. if that in fact happens, then who will protect us from the armed sheriffs?

ATeaM · September 13, 2001, 01:17 AM

"HELL NO we don't need armed sheriffs aboard airplanes. if that in fact happens, then who will protect us from the armed sheriffs?"

Who will protect me from your absurd posts ?

A comedian once joked about hearing something so stupid, it almost gave him an aneurism trying to make sense of it. Everytime I read one of your posts, I am reminded of that joke. For your sake I hope you were joking and that you're just a troll.

Gunter · September 13, 2001, 02:05 AM

Issue to every adult passenger, when boarding the aircraft, a suitable pistol (Glock would be fine :-)), loaded with suitable ammunition. If anyone suggests a change of route, take a popular "vote". Appropriate safety instruction by flight attendants (just like the "O2 mask, exit and lifejacket" routine): "In case of emergency, align the sights on your pistol with the center of the chest - or whatever part of him is visible - of the nearest person suggesting a change of flight route. Slowly and gently press the trigger to the rear. Repeat as necessary."

parabellum9x19 · September 13, 2001, 03:12 AM

A gun fired in a plane will depressurize the cabin and might take down the plane. Maybe a tazer is better.

witzig · September 13, 2001, 05:44 AM

...
that the terrorists told the passengers that they had explosives strapped to themselves,if there was an attempt...
Bang.

PaladinX13 · September 13, 2001, 09:00 AM

Also, if we "armed everyone" then terrorists would simply use "Sleepers" who didn't aggressively jump up with the other terrorists... if SHTF then that person would blow the plane. There's very little defense against the motivated irrational suicial terrorist.

Not that I don't believe philosophically, that people are better off down here on the ground being able to defend themselves, but up in the air is a tactical situation totally loaded against you with no simple solution, IMO.

September 12, 2001, 01:12 AM	#1
parabellum9x19 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2001 Posts: 113	*How do you defend yourself against a terrorist on a plane with a knife?* Based on what happened today, how do you defend yourself against a terrorist on a plane with a knife when you can't bring a weapon on a plane yourself?

September 12, 2001, 02:40 AM	#2
PUMC_TomG Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Posts: 249	FMA This is easy...depending on how many subjects there are. I'd call a Marine Corps shout, and motivate everyone to go after them. Even 5 or 6 knifemen versus 80 or so motivated attackers are sure to buy the farm. Tactically, I would use my belt most likely...or possibly a coup baton. I would depending on their style attempt to initially break the weapon arm, followed by a disarm and a quick attack to the vitals. Another idea would be to use your seat cushion. Anyone stabbing or slicing will meet firm resistance with the cushion which will give me the one second or so to take them out.

September 12, 2001, 04:14 AM	#4
Jorah Lavin Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: Indian Land, SC USA Posts: 593	I suspect that the next hijacker of an American plane will be mobbed and torn limb from limb. I also suspect that the next attack will come in a different way, just as gruesome and horrifying, and just as hard to predict. Gods help us in the next days and months. -J.

September 12, 2001, 12:01 PM	#9
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	I think... All they had to do was kill the pilots. After that, barring the possibility of having a pilot on board as a passenger, I don't think there'd be much the passengers could do. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

September 12, 2001, 12:08 PM	#10
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	I think... All they had to do was kill the pilots. After that, barring the possibility of having a pilot on board as a passenger, I don't think there'd be much the passengers could do. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

September 12, 2001, 03:29 AM	#3
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	Agreed...convincing the others to "rush them" is a sure fire method. The only reason that I can think of why they didn't do this on three of the four planes is probably because they didn't know that the terrorists were set on crashing the planes. Hollywood had taught us that the FBI can negotiate anything.

September 12, 2001, 04:59 AM	#5
ATeaM Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 601	Yep, the people didn't realize the terrorists were going to crash the plane. Too many news reports of Rambo wannabes interfering in bank robberies and what not, losing their life and causing the deaths of others keeps most from interfering. However, the crew is a whole other story. Why are pilots not armed ? I bet they will be now. That and a more secure cockpit. Oh, and an automatic pilot that prevents non authorized pilots from flying the plane. Technology should be in place so that Air traffic control can guide the plane from the ground. But, to answer your original question; What can you do if a terrorist has a knife pointed at you ? Kick him in the nuts and choke him to death with his towel.

September 12, 2001, 09:15 AM	#6
UK2TX Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Austin,TX Posts: 274	80 people rushing 5 or 6 knifemen?, the only problem is that the narrow gaps between / over the seats would allow a couple of people at most to come at the person at any one time. I've been envolved in fist fights in similarly constrained environments and can assure you that two people side by side can defend their selves very ably! As for the pilots, most do not even lock the aluminum door to the cabin, I would have thought that after the several "air rage" attacks recently the FAA would have mandated the locking of such doors. Regards, UK2TX

September 12, 2001, 11:24 AM	#7
PaladinX13 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 519	This latest case is the exception... hopefully not what will become a rule. As rules go, most hijackings end "peacefully"... and in fact the bravery of those who acted on the Boston flight would be a terrible and foolish tragedy if we didn't have the bigger picture. We must realize that those on the Boston flight DIDN'T survive either... which means the terrorists still "win". I believe that by and large, our best bet would be to "fight" by providing intel... if you believe in sacrifice. I agree with Jorah, they will modify their tactics... so this "What If" situation is loaded against us. But if you want to play the statistics, just wait.

September 12, 2001, 11:46 AM	#8
gereg Member Join Date: July 29, 2001 Location: Oklahoma- Cultural Center of the Universe Posts: 37	Best bet is the seat cushion. 3-4 inches of dense foam and attached to the seat with velcro so its quick and easy to get loose. BG with a box knife couldn't do much unless his arms are long enough to reach past the cushion. As for the cockpit doors, they have knobs like hotel room doors--if the door is closed it is locked. However, an agressive 12 year old could knock it down with 2 or 3 kicks. Best bet for better security there would be .100" thick stainless steel sheet in the door and vault-door type locking bolts. Might add 100 lbs but would pay for itself the first time a terrorist or air-rager couldn't get into the cockpit. Add 2 armed cockpit crewmen and we're flying safe and secure again.

September 12, 2001, 12:20 PM	#11
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Aww, given enough fuel (= TIME), I think we could get any state's highway patrol to clear a few miles of freeway. Then any pair of reasonably competent passengers could be talked through the landing gear sequence and so forth, and then just idle the thing down to land. It's just gotta be a few miles without any overpasses! Even in PA, that might mean a 2-lane remains the best bet... Being the type of carried a bladder canteen in my carry-on baggage to Hawaii, I've also been known to carry one of those almost under-engineered plastic knives. Entering and staying a known disarmed victim zone always makes me nervous.

September 12, 2001, 12:40 PM	#12
PaladinX13 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 519	Assuming you're not attacking a suicidal pilot who sends you into a dive the instant you initiate an attack... can you defeat him, get him out of the way, learn to operate a radio, and get out of a dive... in time? Perhaps.

September 12, 2001, 01:35 PM	#13
Coltdriver Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 683	I always have a small but razor sharp pocketknife in my pocket. So, you say your prayers, decide you have everything to gain and nothing more to lose and you go Yankee crazy or Rebel crazy on em and slash away at the hijacker while you are screaming for others to help you. You'd probably inspire some help. As for landing that big bird if the pilot was disabled, that is another story. There are over 10,000 runways in the US so getting to one should not be that tough. Flying a plane is not that hard. Landing a big jet is a very high skill task. I believe most private pilots could be talked through it, but a non pilot, I doubt it.

September 12, 2001, 02:53 PM	#14
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	I suspect no one's going to be having small pocketknives, razor sharp or not, in their pockets on airplanes anymore. Under-engineered plastic knives, either.

September 12, 2001, 03:42 PM	#15
David Howard Junior Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Posts: 6	I believe the decrease in crime on the streets is due partly to CCW. Don't see much difference on the street & on a plane. I bet most everyone on board wished someone was armed. Some calibers might overpenetrate & lead to decompression or loss of hydraulics but in the end the result will be the same for those on board & maybe better for those on the ground. They should at least go back to having sky marshalls or arm crew members.

September 12, 2001, 04:59 PM	#16
eyeball Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2001 Posts: 84	only about half of the plane's popluation could fight off 5 or 6 knifed terrorists cause you have to think about the elderly and children. anyways, I was thinking about rushing a kinfeman with luggage and then after that he and I would be in a wrestling match. but then again, one of his gay friends might come up from behind and stab me while were are struggling for possession of the kinfe.

September 12, 2001, 05:35 PM	#17
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	This is a good discussion. Because most martial artists I have talked to say they would just run if someone had a knife. This is one of many scenarios where running won't work. I think if we are honest, we can admit that no martial art can really level the playing field when you are up against a blade. You have a slim chance of winning. Of course, especially in this case, you have to try. There are some good ideas posted on improvised weapons and shields. It isn't much. But, it is all you have. Dave

September 12, 2001, 07:47 PM	#18
Fatcat Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Location: Rockaway Beach, OR Posts: 376	"The most dangerous man is the one who's got nothing to lose." I usually don't pack a chute with me when I fly, so I can't bail out the door. And I certainly will not just curl up and whimper. What's left to do? Take a deep breath, and go berzerk. Good to see many others on this board have the same idea. I ain't a martial artist, but they had better be good with a blade, cause I'm gonna keep fighting till the last drop of blood falls out of my body. If at least 1/4 of the others on the plane did the same, it would be easy. As for landing it, the undersides of those things are built for skidding along the ground, aren't they? At least for a bit? Seems like you'd have a much larger chance of survival that way. Don't know if I could bring it down smoothly, but I think I could get it down soft enough to skid instead of smash. Maybe. __________________ Patrick J. Sullivan :: [email protected] "When I whet my flashing sword, and my hand takes hold in judgement, I will take vengeance upon mine enemies, and I will repay those who haze me."

September 12, 2001, 10:56 PM	#19
parabellum9x19 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2001 Posts: 113	seat cushion idea is good. I would use my keys between my fingers to punch. Leather belt sounds good too. I think we need armed sky sheriffs.

September 13, 2001, 12:19 AM	#20
eyeball Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2001 Posts: 84	HELL NO we don't need armed sheriffs aboard airplanes. if that in fact happens, then who will protect us from the armed sheriffs?

September 13, 2001, 01:17 AM	#21
ATeaM Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 601	"HELL NO we don't need armed sheriffs aboard airplanes. if that in fact happens, then who will protect us from the armed sheriffs?" Who will protect me from your absurd posts ? A comedian once joked about hearing something so stupid, it almost gave him an aneurism trying to make sense of it. Everytime I read one of your posts, I am reminded of that joke. For your sake I hope you were joking and that you're just a troll.

September 13, 2001, 02:05 AM	#22
Gunter Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 279	Issue to every adult passenger, when boarding the aircraft, a suitable pistol (Glock would be fine :-)), loaded with suitable ammunition. If anyone suggests a change of route, take a popular "vote". Appropriate safety instruction by flight attendants (just like the "O2 mask, exit and lifejacket" routine): "In case of emergency, align the sights on your pistol with the center of the chest - or whatever part of him is visible - of the nearest person suggesting a change of flight route. Slowly and gently press the trigger to the rear. Repeat as necessary."

September 13, 2001, 03:12 AM	#23
parabellum9x19 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2001 Posts: 113	A gun fired in a plane will depressurize the cabin and might take down the plane. Maybe a tazer is better.

September 13, 2001, 05:44 AM	#24
witzig Junior Member Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 10	You forget or dont know... ... that the terrorists told the passengers that they had explosives strapped to themselves,if there was an attempt... Bang.

September 13, 2001, 09:00 AM	#25
PaladinX13 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 519	Also, if we "armed everyone" then terrorists would simply use "Sleepers" who didn't aggressively jump up with the other terrorists... if SHTF then that person would blow the plane. There's very little defense against the motivated irrational suicial terrorist. Not that I don't believe philosophically, that people are better off down here on the ground being able to defend themselves, but up in the air is a tactical situation totally loaded against you with no simple solution, IMO.