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Old June 21, 2010, 07:22 PM   #1
Clark500
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M1 Garand FTF

I tried my hand at reloading for my Garand today, and the results were dissapointing. The groups were OK, but I had around 5-6 FTFs. I am using 150 grain FMJ bullets, once-fired HXP brass & H335 powder. My test topped out @ 43.2 grains (Hornady gives a spread of 36.9 to 46.4 grains). Could my loads be too weak - and therefore short-stroking the action? I did not have this problem with the factory-loaded HXP ammo.

I am also having a problem checking my once-fired HXP brass with my Lyman headspace gauge. No matter how far I run the die down, I can't get the case to gauge right (it still sticks up above the top step of the gauge). The die is touching the shellholder, so I can't imagine it would be the shoulder holding it up - it must be something near the case head.

I have had this same problem checking size in .223 (a Lyman gauge as well), but I always had mixed headstamps so I only had the problem on a few brands of brass (example: a Federal case would drop in perfectly between the steps, but a PPU case would stick up out of the gauge - both sized on the same die at the same die settings). Unfortunately, I only have the HXP brass in 30-06.

Has anybody else had any problems with a Lyman gauge? Or any other brand of gauge for that matter?

I have read that you can have FTFs if you don't headspace the brass properly, but I am pretty sure that is not the problem (well, as sure as I can be seeing that my gauge isn't telling me anything useful). Am I missing something on die setup? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old June 21, 2010, 08:08 PM   #2
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I check all my brass for the M1 and AR through Lyman gages. It sounds to me like you have extractor burrs on the rims. I keep a small needle file handy when gaging sized cases. A quick pass around the rim with the file usually lets them drop right in.

I don't use H335 so can't advise on the load. By FTF do you mean failure to feed or failure to fire? Is it stripping a round from the magazine but not going completely into battery?
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Old June 21, 2010, 08:14 PM   #3
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I'm assuming you mean "failure to feed" rather than "failure to fire", as you said the groups were OK.

My understanding is that Greek HXP is a little on the "warm" side of loads. It won't harm the Garand, but it isn't going to short stroke, as you found out.

Since the Garand is gas-operated, there really isn't such as thing as a "light" load for it. Assuming you have the rifle lubricated properly (with grease, not oil), short-stroking the action is one symptom of loads with insufficient gas port pressure. The proper load is powder in the correct burn rate range, and the correct amount of it for the bullet you are pushing.

I have had similar problems with setting the sizing die. Federal brass gave me trouble and Winchester did not. It turned out to be that there was slight work-hardening from the once-fired brass, compared to the new brass.

I had to set the die down further to get the case to resize.

I'm sure someone will be along to explain this better than I can, but you do not want to shoot ammo in a Garand that isn't resized to SAAMI minimum. It has to chamber, without resistance, or you risk slamfires.

Case lubrication has to be adequate, and you have to adjust the press to allow for the "spring" that the press has under load.

Quote:
...my gauge isn't telling me anything useful.
If your brass isn't near the SAAMI minimum mark, your gauge is telling you to adjust your resizing die until it is. This is useful information. While it may not be related to your FTF's, it isn't something to casually ignore.
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Old June 21, 2010, 08:44 PM   #4
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I just reloaded some yesterday for the first time, I'm using IMR 4895 and I loaded it with 44.8 grains. I guess Im not the only one with these questions. I dont want to have the same FTF problems. Im aslo using the same case length gauge. I only loaded eight rounds and went through some of the cases with the gauge, Some of them were a little passed the max headspace. Im also using once fired HXP 69, these were not fired from my rifle but bought from a reloading suppy store.
There is a PDF file called: THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO RELOADING FOR THE M1 GARAND. If you do a google search it should be the first one that comes up, It has some good information in the article. I tried to attach the file but it ws to big to upload.
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Old June 21, 2010, 09:47 PM   #5
Clark500
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Sport45,

Sorry, I was a little vague in my initial post. I did mean fail to feed. By fail to feed I mean that the fired cases will eject, but the next round sometimes fails to strip from the mag. I then have to manually cycle the action, which WILL chamber the next round. I will try your suggestion for lightly filing the rim and see if I can get the sized brass to gauge correctly.

Dmazur,

You said:

Quote:
If your brass isn't near the SAAMI minimum mark, your gauge is telling you to adjust your resizing die until it is.
In my original post I said:

Quote:
The die is touching the shellholder
I guess I should have said that the die is very firmly touching the shellholder at the top of the press stroke. I can adjust the die in further, but that will only serve to shorten the press stroke as it meets the shellholder.
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Old June 21, 2010, 10:31 PM   #6
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Often firmly touching the shellholder isn't enough. There is spring in your press and that has to be taken into account.

Here's a discussion about Garands and headspace -

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ghlight=garand

Here's another -

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...rand+headspace

There appears to be no single answer to this problem. I had a heck of a time with a Dillon FL die, but a Hornady FL die worked fine.

I never had a FTF problem, although others apparently have. I read that it was dangerous to shoot with cases improperly sized and I chased this until I got the sizing die set correctly.
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Last edited by dmazur; June 21, 2010 at 10:41 PM.
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Old June 22, 2010, 01:35 AM   #7
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powder choice & die settings

H335 is not listed as a suitable powder for the Garand in my sources. There are issues with the correct pressure curve/port pressure and timing of the garand action.

If I interpret things right, H335 is a relatively slow powder, and may not be supplying sufficient omph the Garand action, and you may indeed be getting short cycles. My Speer manual shows VARGET, IMR-4064, 4320 and 4895 all as suitable for the Garand. I have used VArget and 4064, w/ relativley moderate charges w/ no issues.

Regards die settings, it is not an uncommon practice to screw the sizing die down until it is beyond touching the shell holder and causes the press to "cam over" at the end of its stroke. Often/ususally, this will reduce the case a bit further, although it seems that it would not.

Correctly headspaced ctgs are an issue w/ the Garand, (even more so) and misadjusted dies can lead to slamfires or failure to fires. I set my Garand ctgs up .002-003 under what a fired cause mics on an RCBS precesion mic.
Mixed cases and cases of dubious history complicate matters w/ the Garand in my experience.

That said, there are many VERY experienced M1 guys out there and you will hear from others I'm betting.
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Old June 22, 2010, 02:23 AM   #8
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H335 should be fine. The rule I've always heard is no powder slower than IMR4320 or faster than IMR3031. H335 is toward the faster end of that scale but it should work fine.
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Old June 22, 2010, 05:39 AM   #9
dmazur
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national86 -

That was a useful link. I downloaded the .pdf file and read it. It seems well written.

...except for "Set the sizing die in the press according to the manufacturer’s
instructions" and the lack of including a cartridge headspace gauge in the recommended equipment list.

This completely ignores the problems people are having when setting up the resizing die.

Anyway, here's the link if anyone else wants to download this file -

http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachme...0&d=1196968400
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Old June 22, 2010, 11:03 AM   #10
mehavey
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I have never liked the wilson/lyman-design headspace gauges. Too many things to "hang up," and very little real information other than Go/No-Go.

Recommend you get the Hornady/Stoney headspace gauges here:

http://www.amazon.com/Hornady-Lock-L.../dp/B000PD5VN8

and a good digital blade caliper...
http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-6244...7220705&sr=1-1

These are essential tools to a handloader as they give you exact dimensions from which to (a) save your life/eyesight; and (b) save your cases.

Failing these, get the RCBS precision micrometer
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm...N%20MIC%203006

The advantage of the Hornady/Caliper setup is that you get everything for every caliber for a total $75-$90 along with the universally-useful caliper (which you need anyway). RCBS requires you separately purchase a $50 micrometer for each cartridge. If you’re like me, you load for multiple cartridges.

Bottom Line: You can get away with an under re-sized case with a bolt gun. It merely cams home (or won't chamber). Safe. But an under re-sized case in a semi-auto like the M1, M-14, or the AR family will get you (and the guy next to you) very upset to say the least. An out-of-battery fire is never to be forgotten.

Then again, an over-resized case will eventually cause case head separation after multiple reloadings because of repeated case stretch. At a minimum you start throwing cases away after 3-4 firings to be safe.

What to do.....?

Both the Hornady/Caliper or the RCBS Precision Mic will allow you to adjust your resized case to a target 0.003"-0.004"* under a fired case from the same gun it's going back into. (This is a bit on the safe side in case of case "spring" upon ejection.) This saves cases and saves excitement.

`Recomend them highly for your peace of mind (and ability to sound really cool at the range when people come up and ask "...what load-out are you shooting?"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*If you really have nothing to do at night, strip the Garand bolt of its extractor (in a small room and linoleum floors so you can find all the springs & parts afterward). Then slowly/increasingly resize an over-size case until the bolt just cams over/closes without any effort – write that headspace number down and then resize all cases 0.002” under that from then on.

** Also recommend going with IMR4064 and/or IMR4895 powder for the Garand. Most ball powders (like 335) tend not to fill the case volume to get consistant ignition to start with ...AND are hard(er) to ignite by their very graphite-coated design.

Last edited by mehavey; June 22, 2010 at 11:15 AM.
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Old June 22, 2010, 12:02 PM   #11
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1) You mention once-fired Greek cases. Presumably you had some Greek factory to fire and they worked OK? If so, there is nothing wrong with your rifle.

2) As someone said, H335 is really not suited for the M1.

3) Try one of the "tried and true" loads for the M1 and see if that cures the problem. (My favorite load is 46.0 gr. Win748 pushing a Sierra 165-gr. GameKing.)
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Old June 22, 2010, 12:33 PM   #12
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Your ammo is fine

If the shell ejects and the gun does not strip the top round out of the clip it is not a reloading problem it is a mechanical problem with the gun. Get a new OP ROD spring
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Old June 22, 2010, 01:00 PM   #13
mehavey
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Short-stroking (bolt coming back just far enuf' to clear the mouth of the empty case and eject) is common when the port pressure/impulse is insufficient to drive the OpRod/bolt assembly past the point to where it picks up the next round (another 3/4"). It is a classic ammunition under-loading condition and not a mechanical problem (unless it also short-strokes w/ the original HXP military round.)

Since the HXP functioned OK, the problem lies with the re-load.
Go back to the classic military loadouts of ....

150gr plain base anything
48gr IMR4895 (or same w/ Varget)

168 SMKs
46gr IMR4895 (or same Varget)

OR.... any of these:
http://web.archive.org/web/200006200...rpo/M1load.htm
(Added Note: Observe the much higher H335 weights required to perform reliably.)
Added Note#2: Use CCI primers. Do Not use Federal in the Garand (or AR) family of actions

Check out also:
http://www.m14.ca/reloading/14_loading.pdf

Everything that the author says about M-14 handloading technique applies to the M1. (He even has an M1-specific section near the end.)

Last edited by mehavey; June 22, 2010 at 01:27 PM.
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Old June 22, 2010, 03:50 PM   #14
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Clark500,

My first Garand's chamber was long enough that no standard sizing die could get the cases back to SAAMI size. This is especially true with harder, more springy brass. About 0.005" over new brass spec was what normally resulted for it. But that worked fine. A bigger chamber doesn't need the brass as small as a tight one does in order to feed. These are relative matters. What's important is getting the shoulder set back 0.002" or more, and getting the sides 0.001" narrower than they come out, and a standard die will usually do that much. If you have feed trouble, you can get a small base die to narrow it further and get another couple of thousandths of shoulder setback.

If you are using a press with conventional shell holders, you can also spray glue some 240 grit wet/dry paper to a scrap of plate glass and rub the top of a shell holder back and forth (rotating it periodically to even the cut) until you thin it out a couple of thousandths to let your existing sizing die come down further.

Another trick you can use to size it down an extra thousandth or two, is to run the case up into the sizing die, count to five to let the metal relax a little. Then back it out, rotate it 180 degrees in the holder, and repeat that process.

The H335 is not a great choice of powder. It is in the right burning rate range, being slightly faster than H4895, but at the load level you are using, it fills the case very poorly (about 70%). If you tip the muzzle up to get the powder over the flashhole, then level it to fire, it will likely operate the gun. But if you tip it down so the powder is away from the flash hole before leveling it to fire, there is a good chance that will produce your failure to feed. The old M72 Match ammunition would change velocity 80 fps doing that tip up or down trick, and have slightly flattened primers after a tip up, but rounded ones after a tip down, and its load of IMR4895 filled the case 83%.

In addition to the above, some of the Hornady manual's Garand loads are significantly lower pressure than old published Garand match loads were. They are mindful of the aging of the Garand population, and bending op-rods is more important to avoid now because replacements are getting scarce. But the maximum Hornady loads are middling as compared to loads published in the mid and late 80's. The action of a Garand is plenty strong for full or even somewhat overloaded rounds. It's the op-rod that's the weak link.

Your 43.2 grain load of H335 is an example of a light load. If I plug in the case capacity my original Garand's chamber produced (fired case capacity is needed to determine peak pressure, not sized capacity), the Hornady 150 grain FMJ (great choice for FMJ, by the way, and far more accurate than many other bulk FMJ bullets out there) at 3.185" COL only gets to about 35,000 psi and 2500 fps in QuickLOAD. That's almost 100 fps slower than Hornady projects, but is about what my gun would have done. If you have a chronograph, you can get a more realistic assessment of what is actually happening with this load in your gun? This load, if the velocity I gave turns out to be is right with your gun, too, would represent a port pressure of about 7900 psi.

M2 ball once upon a time was loaded with 50 grains of IMR4895, and generated 9700 psi at the gas port, while M72 Match as last loaded with 46.5 grains of IMR4895 (mild) ran more like 9200 psi at the port. So, your charge is under 8000 psi at the port and that could certainly contribute to short stroking, as could the powder position in the case I described; especially if you have an extra-power replacement op-rod spring (not recommended as the harder slam forward increases the likelihood of a slam fire).

I would recommend you look at using IMR4064 and Varget because they fill the case better than 4895 and way better than H335. IMR4064 is a proven accuracy powder in the Garand. If you want to use a spherical propellant, look at H380. Even though it is a little slower even than IMR4320, it is the commercial version of WC 852, which the government used extensively in various .30-06 loads, including M2 AP, and it produces about the same port pressure as IMR4895 in a same-velocity load.
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Old June 22, 2010, 08:09 PM   #15
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I just bought my Garand a month ago and have loaded about 400 rounds so far using the HXP brass from the CMP.

Couple things I see different, are you trimming your cases? Also try using 47gr of 4895 instead of that H355. I've had zero problems so far, and that's using range pickup Remington brass as well. Are you using a full length die or the neck sizing die?
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Old June 22, 2010, 09:40 PM   #16
Clark500
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Guys, thanks for all the help and suggestions. I will definitely try some of your ideas and see what I come up with.

Unclenick,

I will try your 5-second trick first and see if that gives me a little extra sizing. If that fails, I will probably modify the shellholder as you described.

As far as powder choice... The general consensus seems to be that I picked a lemon. I don't have a good source for powder locally, so I usually buy from the internet. The stiff surcharge makes me reluctant to change powders at this point, especially since I don't need any other powders or primers at this time (which would help offset the cost). I have some room to increase the H335 load, so I think I will start there (and at least try to use up the powder I already have). I only shoot for fun, so extreme accuracy is not a consideration for me. I MAY be able to find Varget locally, and if so I will give it a try.
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Old June 23, 2010, 09:44 AM   #17
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Go to Hornady's maximum load for the powder, then. It's still nowhere near true maximum for the gun. QuickLOAD shows 48 grains would be needed to match original M2 Ball ballistics and would still about 15,000 psi below current SAAMI maximum for the round, though YMMV, so work up slowly, as always. Deburr the flash holes in your cases and go to a magnum primer (if you haven't already), as the military primers are. That helps pressure consistency with spherical propellants, especially, and the magnum primer charges exist to help pressurize a large volume, which is what all your empty space under the bullet amounts to. They often produce velocity consistency improvements in partially filled cases.
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