.223 reloads through a Wylde barrel

countryboy308 · November 3, 2014, 09:26 AM

Hey guys, new to the forum. I have a question concerning .223/5.56 reloads...
I have about 100 rounds of 5.56 that are reloads and the micrometer shows 1.77 on a few yet they fit my case checker just fine... I haven't attempted to fire them from my AR that has the .223 Wylde barrel. Anyone know if they will cycle? I know they should be around 1.75 but not that up to date on the Wylde cut.... Thanks in advance.

Metal god · November 3, 2014, 11:32 AM

I assume you are talking case length ? Max length is 1.760 and trim length is 1.750 so 1.770 is to long . The thing is that they will likely chamber even if they are to long . Reason being is the weight of the BCG slamming forward will set back the case neck/shoulder or anything else that gives way to the action of the bolt closing . The other thing about firing a case that is to long but still fits in the chamber is when fired the case will stretch causing it to be even longer then the 1.770 . Short answer trim your cases

Bart B. · November 3, 2014, 11:52 AM

Bolts slamming into chambered rimless bottleneck case heads sets the shoulder back. The case neck gets longer from shoulder brass moved into the neck; exactly like a full length sizing die does. If the case length is too long, its mouth will be jammed into the chamber mouth.

steve4102 · November 3, 2014, 12:39 PM

Says here you have 1.7726 to work with.

http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

Metal god · November 3, 2014, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Bolts slamming into chambered rimless bottleneck case heads sets the shoulder back. The case neck gets longer from shoulder brass moved into the neck; exactly like a full length sizing die does.

( on second thought ) Are we completely sure about that . At first I'd agree but on second thought maybe not . The chamber will not support the case walls like a FL die does .

I was also thinking if he has to much case head space . that would allow the case neck deeper into the chamber and the shoulder may buckle a little . My thought is the fact the bullet is seated in the case . That should not allow the case neck to be jammed into the chamber neck as easy resulting in shoulder collapse or buckle . These are just thoughts because I've never tried to force a case into a chamber that was to long .

That .0026 window he will have seem mighty small for case stretch when fired .

Bart B. · November 3, 2014, 01:27 PM

Measure a few primed cases' length, pop them in a chamber, then measure each one again.

Case neck's distance into the chamber neck when fired is determined only by the distance from the case shoulder to the case mouth. The case head could be 1/10th inch away from the bolt face.

Metal god · November 3, 2014, 01:54 PM

So if you have a case FL sized to a case head space .009 shorter then chambers head space but still have a case length of 1.770 . Your saying that 009 distance farther the shoulder needs to go to make contact with the chamber shoulder will not result in the case neck making contact at the end of the chambers neck first ? My math shows you have .009 for the case to move inside the chamber from datum to bolt face but only .0026 of total length . It seems the neck mouth will make contact before the shoulder yes/no ?

countryboy308 · November 3, 2014, 02:04 PM

Thanks guys, I got this box of 100 reloads and since I didn't load them, I measured several of them before I went any further. All specs are under max except the overall case length. I threw about every 5th one in a case checker and they all seem fine except that length. the overall length (base to bullet tip) is correct also... they just don't looked crimped. Didn't want to try to run them through and take a chance of a jammed case. thought I would ask as I know differnet barrels can make a difference.... choot em?

Thanks steve4102 good info!

countryboy308 · November 3, 2014, 02:11 PM

ahhhh.... Metal God, thats kinda what I thought... since pressures and specs can result in performance issues I was unsure if they would cycle in an ar. I only have 1 AR and recently started 3 Gun. Cant really afford to have it down if ya know what I mean....

Just recently bought the Hornady LNL AP press and looking to save a little on ammo... I would have trimmed to 1.75 if I had made them... just don't want to damage equipment..

Bart B. · November 3, 2014, 02:17 PM

Anytime a loaded case neck is longer than the chamber neck length, the case mouth will stop against the chamber mouth before the case shoulder touches the chamber shoulder when it's fired. Case headspace has nothing to do with it.

That, MG, is what I think you're describing. My answer to your query is 'yes' if the case neck is longer than the chamber neck.

All of which means chamber neck length must be longer than case neck length. SAAMI specs for the .223 Rem allow for several thousandths clearance from loaded case mouth to chamber mouth:

Case length 1.760" -.030"
Cham length 1.772" +.015"

The following's got some interesting dimensions for .223/5.56 chamber dimensions:

http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf (SAAMI specs are missing; would be great for comparison)

Which would be interesting to compare with SAAMI's .223 Rem. case specs:

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...0Remington.pdf

This may well be a 22 caliber nightmare getting resized trimmed cases just right for a given chamber.

Jimro · November 3, 2014, 05:10 PM

Whether or not the loads will cycle in your firearm has more to do with port pressure than neck length.

If you put one of these reloads in the chamber, let the bolt slam forward, and you can extract the cartridge without any issues, then that ammo will be fine in your chamber dimension wise. If the neck were seriously overly long, it would get jammed up in the throat and make extraction hard.

If you see rifling imprints on the bullet anywhere after extraction, or shiny spots in a ring around the front of the neck, those are danger signs to not use that ammo.

But, a wylde chamber is specifically designed to give better accuracy than a 5.56 chamber, without the associated pressure spikes of a 223 chamber by lengthening the lead and giving it a shallower transition angle from throat to rifling.

Jimro

Metal god · November 3, 2014, 10:55 PM

Well I went ahead and sized a case that gave me the exact case length as the OP . This was only one so the result may mean nothing . I seated a 55gr FMJ-BT bullet in the case and chambered it from a mag letting the bolt fly home .

Result was the round chambered and extracted with out issue in my 223 Wylde chamber . There were some marks on the bullet and at this time I'm not sure how they got there . The OAL was well below the max of 2.260 , something like 2.238 so I don't see how the bullet made contact with the bore or throat/lead . Any ideas ? I did size the case to have short case head space . Could my theory of short case head space have allowed the bullet to travel deeper into the throat therefore allowing it to make contact with the bore/lead ?

I'll likely do more test now to see what's going on and if I'll continue to get marks on the bullets at different case head spaces but will wait to see what you guys have to say

EDIT just remembered I have chamber molds of my 223 Wylde They should be a couple thousandths bigger now but I think it will make for a good comparison

Bart B. · November 4, 2014, 05:36 AM

MG, were you trying to do what I suggested with a case?

If there's rifling or other chamber marks on the bullet, that shows that some chamber dimension was smaller than that of the bullet. Assuming the bullet stayed put in the case neck. Some length measurements of chamber neck and case neck will prove what happened.

There's a reloading die that does the same thing. Conventional seating dies have a shorter neck than case necks. That lets the crimping shoulder (the die's angled mouth) move the case mouth edge into the bullet before the case shoulder touches the die shoulder.

steve4102 · November 4, 2014, 08:59 AM

No way the marks on your bullets came from the rifling unless there is something seriously wrong with your chamber.

I pretty sure the marks you are seeing are from the round being stripped from the mag and from contact with the Barrel Extension as it is feed into the chamber.

Bart B. · November 4, 2014, 09:36 AM

Crooked bullets in case necks will often get scratched against the chamber throat walls upon chambering.

Sometimes, they slide against the chamber mouth edge, too.

Jimro · November 4, 2014, 10:41 AM

The best way to test with an AR is to remove the ejector button, and use a dummy round (no primer, no powder). Insert the dummy round into the chamber, and let the bolt carrier group slam home. When you pull the charging handle back, the dummy round won't be dragged against anything by the ejector button torquing the brass against the extractor.

If I'm testing a live round, I simply feed the bullet in on a bobsled, and if it ejects without any strain pulling the charging handle back I'll take the risk and shoot it. Generally this is when I'm testing one of my handloads in someone's rifle that I haven't shot my handloads through before.

Jimro

Metal god · November 4, 2014, 02:45 PM

The bullet is scraping on something for sure both length wise and width wise . I'll start a new thread about this tonight rather then high jack this one .

waveslayer · November 4, 2014, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countryboy308

Hey guys, new to the forum. I have a question concerning .223/5.56 reloads...
I have about 100 rounds of 5.56 that are reloads and the micrometer shows 1.77 on a few yet they fit my case checker just fine... I haven't attempted to fire them from my AR that has the .223 Wylde barrel. Anyone know if they will cycle? I know they should be around 1.75 but not that up to date on the Wylde cut.... Thanks in advance.

You will be fine.

November 3, 2014, 09:26 AM	#1
countryboy308 Junior Member Join Date: November 2, 2014 Posts: 3	.223 reloads through a Wylde barrel Hey guys, new to the forum. I have a question concerning .223/5.56 reloads... I have about 100 rounds of 5.56 that are reloads and the micrometer shows 1.77 on a few yet they fit my case checker just fine... I haven't attempted to fire them from my AR that has the .223 Wylde barrel. Anyone know if they will cycle? I know they should be around 1.75 but not that up to date on the Wylde cut.... Thanks in advance.

November 3, 2014, 11:32 AM	#2
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	I assume you are talking case length ? Max length is 1.760 and trim length is 1.750 so 1.770 is to long . The thing is that they will likely chamber even if they are to long . Reason being is the weight of the BCG slamming forward will set back the case neck/shoulder or anything else that gives way to the action of the bolt closing . The other thing about firing a case that is to long but still fits in the chamber is when fired the case will stretch causing it to be even longer then the 1.770 . Short answer trim your cases __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

November 3, 2014, 01:27 PM	#6
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Measure a few primed cases' length, pop them in a chamber, then measure each one again. Case neck's distance into the chamber neck when fired is determined only by the distance from the case shoulder to the case mouth. The case head could be 1/10th inch away from the bolt face. Last edited by Bart B.; November 3, 2014 at 01:32 PM.

November 3, 2014, 01:54 PM	#7
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	So if you have a case FL sized to a case head space .009 shorter then chambers head space but still have a case length of 1.770 . Your saying that 009 distance farther the shoulder needs to go to make contact with the chamber shoulder will not result in the case neck making contact at the end of the chambers neck first ? My math shows you have .009 for the case to move inside the chamber from datum to bolt face but only .0026 of total length . It seems the neck mouth will make contact before the shoulder yes/no ? __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; November 3, 2014 at 08:28 PM.

November 3, 2014, 02:17 PM	#10
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Anytime a loaded case neck is longer than the chamber neck length, the case mouth will stop against the chamber mouth before the case shoulder touches the chamber shoulder when it's fired. Case headspace has nothing to do with it. That, MG, is what I think you're describing. My answer to your query is 'yes' if the case neck is longer than the chamber neck. All of which means chamber neck length must be longer than case neck length. SAAMI specs for the .223 Rem allow for several thousandths clearance from loaded case mouth to chamber mouth: Case length 1.760" -.030" Cham length 1.772" +.015" The following's got some interesting dimensions for .223/5.56 chamber dimensions: http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf (SAAMI specs are missing; would be great for comparison) Which would be interesting to compare with SAAMI's .223 Rem. case specs: http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...0Remington.pdf This may well be a 22 caliber nightmare getting resized trimmed cases just right for a given chamber. Last edited by Bart B.; November 3, 2014 at 04:52 PM.

November 3, 2014, 11:52 AM	#3
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Bolts slamming into chambered rimless bottleneck case heads sets the shoulder back. The case neck gets longer from shoulder brass moved into the neck; exactly like a full length sizing die does. If the case length is too long, its mouth will be jammed into the chamber mouth.

November 3, 2014, 12:39 PM	#4
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	Says here you have 1.7726 to work with. http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

November 3, 2014, 02:04 PM	#8
countryboy308 Junior Member Join Date: November 2, 2014 Posts: 3	Thanks guys, I got this box of 100 reloads and since I didn't load them, I measured several of them before I went any further. All specs are under max except the overall case length. I threw about every 5th one in a case checker and they all seem fine except that length. the overall length (base to bullet tip) is correct also... they just don't looked crimped. Didn't want to try to run them through and take a chance of a jammed case. thought I would ask as I know differnet barrels can make a difference.... choot em? Thanks steve4102 good info!

November 3, 2014, 02:11 PM	#9
countryboy308 Junior Member Join Date: November 2, 2014 Posts: 3	ahhhh.... Metal God, thats kinda what I thought... since pressures and specs can result in performance issues I was unsure if they would cycle in an ar. I only have 1 AR and recently started 3 Gun. Cant really afford to have it down if ya know what I mean.... Just recently bought the Hornady LNL AP press and looking to save a little on ammo... I would have trimmed to 1.75 if I had made them... just don't want to damage equipment..

November 3, 2014, 05:10 PM	#11
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Whether or not the loads will cycle in your firearm has more to do with port pressure than neck length. If you put one of these reloads in the chamber, let the bolt slam forward, and you can extract the cartridge without any issues, then that ammo will be fine in your chamber dimension wise. If the neck were seriously overly long, it would get jammed up in the throat and make extraction hard. If you see rifling imprints on the bullet anywhere after extraction, or shiny spots in a ring around the front of the neck, those are danger signs to not use that ammo. But, a wylde chamber is specifically designed to give better accuracy than a 5.56 chamber, without the associated pressure spikes of a 223 chamber by lengthening the lead and giving it a shallower transition angle from throat to rifling. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 3, 2014, 10:55 PM	#12
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	Well I went ahead and sized a case that gave me the exact case length as the OP . This was only one so the result may mean nothing . I seated a 55gr FMJ-BT bullet in the case and chambered it from a mag letting the bolt fly home . Result was the round chambered and extracted with out issue in my 223 Wylde chamber . There were some marks on the bullet and at this time I'm not sure how they got there . The OAL was well below the max of 2.260 , something like 2.238 so I don't see how the bullet made contact with the bore or throat/lead . Any ideas ? I did size the case to have short case head space . Could my theory of short case head space have allowed the bullet to travel deeper into the throat therefore allowing it to make contact with the bore/lead ? I'll likely do more test now to see what's going on and if I'll continue to get marks on the bullets at different case head spaces but will wait to see what you guys have to say EDIT just remembered I have chamber molds of my 223 Wylde They should be a couple thousandths bigger now but I think it will make for a good comparison __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; November 3, 2014 at 11:01 PM.

November 4, 2014, 05:36 AM	#13
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	MG, were you trying to do what I suggested with a case? If there's rifling or other chamber marks on the bullet, that shows that some chamber dimension was smaller than that of the bullet. Assuming the bullet stayed put in the case neck. Some length measurements of chamber neck and case neck will prove what happened. There's a reloading die that does the same thing. Conventional seating dies have a shorter neck than case necks. That lets the crimping shoulder (the die's angled mouth) move the case mouth edge into the bullet before the case shoulder touches the die shoulder. Last edited by Bart B.; November 4, 2014 at 07:28 AM.

November 4, 2014, 08:59 AM	#14
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	No way the marks on your bullets came from the rifling unless there is something seriously wrong with your chamber. I pretty sure the marks you are seeing are from the round being stripped from the mag and from contact with the Barrel Extension as it is feed into the chamber.

November 4, 2014, 09:36 AM	#15
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Crooked bullets in case necks will often get scratched against the chamber throat walls upon chambering. Sometimes, they slide against the chamber mouth edge, too.

November 4, 2014, 10:41 AM	#16
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	The best way to test with an AR is to remove the ejector button, and use a dummy round (no primer, no powder). Insert the dummy round into the chamber, and let the bolt carrier group slam home. When you pull the charging handle back, the dummy round won't be dragged against anything by the ejector button torquing the brass against the extractor. If I'm testing a live round, I simply feed the bullet in on a bobsled, and if it ejects without any strain pulling the charging handle back I'll take the risk and shoot it. Generally this is when I'm testing one of my handloads in someone's rifle that I haven't shot my handloads through before. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 4, 2014, 02:45 PM	#17
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	The bullet is scraping on something for sure both length wise and width wise . I'll start a new thread about this tonight rather then high jack this one . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; November 4, 2014 at 02:54 PM.