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Old August 7, 2020, 09:42 PM   #26
Metal god
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Oh ok , then yeah not trimming them can be the whole problem . At first I thought the way you explain the problem you just needed to turn your die down a little bit and size the case is a little more . In that same line of thinking did you full length size your cases or did you just neck size ?
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Old August 7, 2020, 09:55 PM   #27
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Oh ok , then yeah not trimming them can be the whole problem . At first I thought the way you explain the problem you just needed to turn your die down a little bit and size the case is a little more . In that same line of thinking did you full length size your cases or did you just neck size ?
Im at a loss here....when setting up a die its turned down to touch the shellholder....how will turning it down anymore push the case farther into the die?
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Old August 7, 2020, 10:11 PM   #28
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Im at a loss here....when setting up a die its turned down to touch the shellholder....how will turning it down anymore push the case farther into the die?
That is a perfectly good question . I'll answer it this way , you don't always need to follow the die manufactures instructions to the letter and often it's actually a bad idea if you want your cases to last more then 2 or 3 reloads . the reason is most commercially made chambers are not at minimum spec which adjusting your die to touch a standard shell holder will size your cases to min spec or even shorter .

Many/most bottle neck cartridges headspace off the shoulder like 308 , 223 , 300 blk . This requires you to size your case to the correct size from head to shoulder in order for it to fit in the chamber of your rifle . To little sizing and you'll have failure to feed because they don't fit in the chamber and to much sizing and you can reduce case life or even have head separation which could be catastrophic . This IMO is much more important to learn how to do correctly then COAL . COAL is simple because when you are starting a new , just use the manuals recommended COAL and you should be gtg .

However in many cases following the die manufactures directions will cause you to size your case to short from case head to datum point on the shoulder and you will reduce case life to as little as two loadings before case head separation .

These are cases only reloaded 3 times and were sized each time as Redding's instructions say to adjust your FL sizing die . ( screw down until contact with shell holder then another 1/4 turn or so )



When your case is sized much shorter then your rifle's chamber the firing pin strikes the primer and pushes the case fully forward until it stops on where it headspaces off of . In the 300 blk that would be the case shoulder stopping on the chamber shoulder . If the case is sized .008 or more shorter then the chamber when the case is pushed forward that leaves a gap of that same amount between the head of the case and bolt face .

Ok almost simultaneously the firing pin strikes the primer , case moves forward and pressure starts to build expanding the case sealing the chamber and the case actually grabs the chamber walls and is stuck in place until the pressure drops . Well what happens to that gap between the case head and bolt face because the case is stuck to the chamber walls and can't move rearward . As the pressure builds , at some point the pressure gets high enough to actually stretch the case at the web ( section of the case above the head ) and the head of the case is forced back against the bolt face . When that stretching accrues it is actually thinning the case wall at the web each time the case is fired and resized to short for the chamber . As you can see with the picture above it only took 3 sizing and firing cycles to stretch the web so thin the case failed ( NOT GOOD ) .

In a bolt gun properly sized cases can be reloaded 10 , 20 and even 40 times . In semi auto's you may not get as many as a bolt gun but if you size your cases correctly you should get 6 to 10 reloads and if you anneal maybe many more . OK so what is the "correct" size to size a case ? I don't know , I just made all that crap up , lol just kidding .

In bolt guns you want to size your cases .001 to .002 shorter from head to datum then your fire formed cases from the same rifle they will be fired in . For semi autos you want to FULL LENGTH size your case .003 to .004 shorter then your fire formed cases from same rifle .

OK so size your cases correctly , trim every time at first and use the bullet manufactures recommended COAL and you should be gtg

If you'd like we can talk press flex/deflection and how that causes cases to size longer then you think they should be .

When you put a load on a press and it's linkage it flexes and or deflects resulting in that die not touching the shell holder when you're actually sizing a case .

Example -

Here are two photos of a die set up to touch the shell holder when not sizing a case and another photo of that same die adjustment and the orientation of the die and shell holder when actually sizing a case .

No case in the die


Actually sizing a 308 case with the same die setting


Note how the gap appeared once you put a load on the press . this means even though you think you screwed the die all the way down you can actually screw it down more and the case will be sized more . that flex/ deflection is why the instructions say screw it down an extra 1/4 to 1/2 turn . A lot of guys think there die is as low as it can go but find they still have that gap when sizing a case , if you do you can screw the die down more .
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Last edited by Metal god; August 7, 2020 at 10:33 PM.
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Old August 7, 2020, 10:13 PM   #29
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Im at a loss here....when setting up a die its turned down to touch the shellholder....how will turning it down anymore push the case farther into the die?
Dies don't need to touch the shellholder at the top of the ram stroke........

* If the bullet doesn't need to be crimped in with a conventional seater die.

* If the fired case shoulder wants to be set back only a thousandth or 2 with a conventional full length sizing die.
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Old August 7, 2020, 10:29 PM   #30
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I reload for 30.06 ( for my 03) FL everytime as per instructions (rcbs dies) fits case gage perfectly I have no problems with headspacing what so ever......the question was how do you make a case shorter when the die is at the shell holder ( can't push it any farther unless you have undersize shell holder)...screwing die in more does nothing...case is as far in as its going to go.......so?



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Old August 7, 2020, 10:31 PM   #31
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Matt , I added to my post and you may have missed it , its about press flex .
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Old August 7, 2020, 10:40 PM   #32
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Metal god,

Pretty good description of the sequence of firing event. Here some icing to put on your good cake.

Bolts with inline ejectors push the loaded cartridge forward to its stop at the chamber shoulder when the bolt closes.

With other types of ejector's, the firing pin drives the case much harder usually setting the case shoulder back a thousandth or more. Easy for a 2+ ounce firing pin pushed by a 25+ pound spring force.

Primers fire a few microseconds after the cartridge is full forward hard against the chamber shoulder from firing pin impact. Takes that long for the firing pin moving near 20 fps to dent the primer at least .020 inch to fire it.

Last edited by Bart B.; August 7, 2020 at 11:10 PM.
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Old August 7, 2020, 10:46 PM   #33
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Matt , I added to my post and you may have missed it , its about press flex .
I cam over so this is not a problem....I guess what Id like to know is how turning the die in 'any' farther will make a case shorter....when its in as far as its ever going to go... ram is at the top and no flex....( assuming your using the normal .125 shell holder )

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Old August 7, 2020, 10:57 PM   #34
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I cam over so this is not a problem....I guess what Id like to know is how turning the die in 'any' farther will make a case shorter....when its in as far as its ever going to go... ram is at the top and no flex....( assuming your using the normal .125 shell holder )
If you're camming over the die and shell holder are making firm contact . In that case you can not size the case any more then that . To be fare to me , I'm thinking you don't know to trim a case after sizing ?? There could be all sorts of things your buddy forgot to tell you so I started throwing things out there I believe are important to know/understand . Right about now it's pretty clear I could have done a better job getting my point across . Sorry about that , I'll try to do better next time
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Old August 7, 2020, 11:04 PM   #35
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Im not the OP....and yes I trim after sizing....also wasnt trying to hijack this post...but when someone says to " bump the shoulder to make the case shorter" ( as in this thread)....Id like to know how thats done?
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Old August 7, 2020, 11:24 PM   #36
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Im not the OP....and yes I trim after sizing....also wasnt trying to hijack this post...but when someone says to " bump the shoulder to make the case shorter" ( as in this thread)....Id like to know how thats done?
Check out post 49 in this thread.....

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...ht=post6805088

Start your own thread about this.

Last edited by Bart B.; August 7, 2020 at 11:36 PM.
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Old August 10, 2020, 06:07 PM   #37
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For those who responded with helpful considerations...I've realized that a "start at the beginning" is in order. Got my hands on a 9th edition Abc of Reloading text and have a life-long reloader friend coming by this week. Hopefully I will get my sea legs soon.

Concerning trimming, which some of you correctly assessed was a problem,..I ordered a Giraud TriTrimmer today.

Looking forward to learning a great craft.

John
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Old August 11, 2020, 12:24 PM   #38
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....

Looking forward to learning a great craft.

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Or, some might say, <ahem> addiction...
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Old August 11, 2020, 02:25 PM   #39
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you don't always need to follow the die manufactures instructions to the letter and often it's actually a bad idea if you want your cases to last more then 2 or 3 reloads .
I've found that case life depends more on the relationship between chamber size and sizing die size, the amount of sizing being done, the level of loads being fired and what gun they are being fired in.

Loading for semi auto rifles involves more sizing and working of the brass than other designs need. You HAVE to size the brass small enough so the mechanism can chamber it. There is a limited amount of force and camming action available in a semi auto. A bolt action's force is you, not a spring. Makes a difference.

I've been using the same Lyman .308 Win sizer since the early 70s. Screwed down against the shellholder. I've got brass fired half a dozen times or more without failure. Fired from a bolt action. Full length resized. Not a problem.

Other side of the coin, I've got a .303british that FL sizing the brass means MAYBE 2 or 3 reloads (or less) then the brass fails. Why? Big chamber, small die. Everything is "in spec" but the spec is the case headspacing on the rim. Neck sizing that .303 and cases last4-6 firings, ..usually.
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Old August 11, 2020, 07:55 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Me
you don't always need to follow the die manufactures instructions to the letter and often it's actually a bad idea if you want your cases to last more then 2 or 3 reloads .
Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I've found that case life depends more on the relationship between chamber size and sizing die size, the amount of sizing being done, the level of loads being fired and what gun they are being fired in.
I read that as you agree with my statement ? You point out at least 4 ways your die "may" be set up different then the "one" way most die manufacturers recommend . After readjusting my dies to size to my chamber and getting competition shell holders so I can still cam over while sizing my cases longer then they would if camming over on a standard shell holder . I now get 10+ reloadings per case . I don't know how many more I can get because I use large lots of brass ( 500 to 1000 ct lots ) so to reload only one lot of my brass 10 times gives me a minimum of 5k reloads . I have 2 1k+ lots and 5- 500ct lots of different year LC cases . I anneal at the 4 or 5 reload mark but instead of annealing right away I switch to a different lot of brass . Needless to say I've not reloaded and shot enough of my brass to have reloaded any one lot more then ten times I have 1 lot that has 10 reloads and needs annealing , one lot that has 4 reloads and needs annealing , 1 lot on there 2nd reloading and several still on there first reloading . I suspect I will not know how many I could actually get for several years , maybe decades

Quote:
Other side of the coin, I've got a .303british that FL sizing the brass means MAYBE 2 or 3 reloads (or less) then the brass fails. Why? Big chamber, small die. Everything is "in spec" but the spec is the case headspacing on the rim. Neck sizing that .303 and cases last4-6 firings, ..usually.
That's interesting , cus even though the cartridge headspaces off the rim the fact it has a shoulder means you can size them as if they were rimless bottle neck cases . I'd think neck only sizing would extend life considerably which I guess double is but would think 4 or 5 times that would be possible .

Is it the primer pockets that are going or case head separation ? Maybe split necks which annealing on the 3rd reload may fix ?
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Old August 11, 2020, 08:32 PM   #41
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.. the fact it has a shoulder means you can size them as if they were rimless bottle neck cases . I'd think neck only sizing would extend life considerably which I guess double is but would think 4 or 5 times that would be possible .
That it, essentially what I do with neck sizing. I don't try to get a "perfect" fit to the shoulder, as I have a couple .303s and they're slightly different. I don't shoot .303 that much, so I don't have any brass I know I've loaded more than 4-6 times, might get more loadings if I was more precise, I don't know.

One thing about the .303, even "once fired" brass could be on its last legs. Usually isn't, but "usually" isn't "always".

One bag I got had a case head let go on its first firing (by me), and that's when I made up my mind about two things. "Once fired brass" gets FL sized, once, and if it survives the next firing, gets neck sized after that until the fail (or I see they are about to fail) usually its partial case head separation.

The other thing I decided was that when I felt I needed more brass, to spend the $ and buy NEW brass. And when I do, load that with all the tricks I know to maximize case life.

Military rifles (and machineguns) are the worst platforms for case life. Some, like many Mausers are fair to good, like sporting rifles, but many are not. The description one usually reads is "generous" chambers so they will function in dirty combat conditions. Good for the military, bad for reloaders, but then, the military only cares about a case going into the chamber (and coming out) ONCE.
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Old August 13, 2020, 09:36 AM   #42
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Tell us of your experience with an AR. You mentioned that "cheap factor ammo" did the same thing. Past experience would indicate that the gun is in need of a good cleaning and greasing with red grease on the wear spots.
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Old August 22, 2020, 02:47 PM   #43
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Hey all.

Just received the giraud tri trimmer.

So i'm cleaning the brass with tumbler; waiting for the FA wet tumbler.
Deprime and resize on my dillon 550b.
Swaging using the dillon 600?
Using a drill in bench vise to trim brass to 1.750.

Thanks for guiding me in this hobby.

John

*Coal is 2.236" Not too short?

Last edited by jproaster; August 22, 2020 at 05:22 PM.
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Old August 22, 2020, 06:25 PM   #44
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Whether that is short or not depends on the bullet nose profile. Short ogive bullet, and that's fine. Run a match bullet and it can well be on the short side. It's usually best to start with the bullet maker's recommendation and experiment from there.
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Old August 22, 2020, 06:39 PM   #45
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It's a smk 77. I've seen several who run this at 2.240. Just wondering if this difference is a problem.
Thanks.
John
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Old August 23, 2020, 10:39 PM   #46
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2.240 is to short imo . 2.250 minimum . At 2.240 that bullet is just so deep in the case I can’t think of any powder you’d want to use wont be highly compressed. Maybe to the point of not being able to seat that deep consistently with out a long drop tube .
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Old August 23, 2020, 10:55 PM   #47
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I seat several loads at less than 2.240”, specifically I do:
LT-32 powder, Hornady 75gr OTM BTHP at 2.221”
LT-32 powder, Hornady 70gr GMX BTHP at 2.200”
LT-32 powder, Hornady 53gr OTM FBHP at 2.210”

All those seat with simple powder thrower, slight crunch for the 75gr and 70gr, but not significantly compressed, still rattles inside afterward.

All feed very well in M4 feed ramps and magazine fed (I have no M16 feed ramps) except the 75gr which is single loaded.

And both 73gr ELD and 75gr ELD seated at the same effective depth as the 75gr OTM (basically base aligned), so different COAL but the same powder volume use (and the same powder weight/charge works fine).


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Old August 23, 2020, 11:27 PM   #48
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OK , here's a 77gr smk seated to 2.240



This is 23gr AR-comp one of my best loads for my AR with that bullet .
That's filled to mid shoulder , my 23gr of IMR-4895 fills it just a tad more . Compare that filled to mid shoulder with pic above .


Not sure what powders you all are using but the standard stick powders like AR-comp , Varget , IMR-4064 , H & IMR 4895 fill the case up .
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Old August 24, 2020, 04:22 PM   #49
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Max length (nominal) to fit a magazine is 2.260. That should work fine.

I load 2.250 just to have that .010 extra clearance for reliability.

As far as powder compression....if .010 is the difference between "go" and "no go"...I don't know what to tell you.

In my 1 in 8 twist barrel,I don't even load 69 gr bullets anymore. I load 77 gr MK's or Nos Comps,or I load Hornady 75 gr BTHP Match. The Hornady's are cheaper and advertise a better BC. I mostly use them. Note the 75 gr AMAX will not load to 2,260. The ogive will enter the neck.

For myself,the powder of choice for the 75 gr Hornady is RE-15. See the Hornady load manual,the AR-15 match load page.
I have no problem loading it to 2.250
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Old August 24, 2020, 05:01 PM   #50
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I’ve loaded enough compressed loads to know that .010 can be all the difference . I’ve came across it several times where the most I could seat is X amount and not .010 more . If you’ve never come across that , then you haven’t loaded enough in small cartridges with Long bullets and slow powders .

I’d also like to add that I hope my comments aren’t taken as carved in stone . I was quite clear in my original post about seating depth 2.240 is too short . Why ? because you don’t need to it’s that simple there is zero reason to seat that deep and take up more room in that little tiny case . Can you , sure but why would you . I also load the 77’s with a crimp groove and I seat to 2.250 Which crimps into the top center of the groove .

Again I’m not saying you can’t just asking why would you ?
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