How-To, Top break Iver Johnson and H&R

Dixie Gunsmithing · August 15, 2016, 01:11 PM

If you run into an old Iver Johnson or H&R top break revolver, that is having a problem with the cylinder not wanting to rotate, some times this is not caused by either the hand of the cylinder stop, but loose locking of the frame at the latch.

Grasp the barrel and the grip with two hands, and see if there is any slop in the barrel wanting to lift from the frame, due to the latch being loose. It does not take much, just a small amount of slack. If you have this problem, open the revolver, cock the hammer, and with a small ball pein hammer, swell the metal, (toward the hammer), of the two lugs that the latch fits over, by striking the back corner of each. This does not take much to do, only a few good raps, and do not wail on them. Afterward, the lugs will then need to be fitted by filing.

Another test, is to take off the grips, place the frame in a padded vise, and lift up on the barrel, applying pressure upwards, to see if the cylinder will rotate properly, when cocking or pulling the trigger. If it rotates properly, then you have found the culprit.

After peining the lugs, first file the sides of the lugs, (the top corner on each side), and between them, making them flat with a pillar file, to make sure that nothing hampers the two haves swinging closed, and then, gradually, with only a few file licks at a time, reshape the rear cam surface of the two lugs so that the latch will close over them. Keep checking the fit with every two file licks. The trick is to get the slack out of the hinge joint, with the latch easy to lock and lift.

I just helped a neighbor bring another old Iver Johnson back to life, showing him how to perform these steps. With a little work, what was once a revolver with the cylinder hanging up at every trigger pull, came back to life.

Note; the hinge joint can loosen too, and that might have to be adjusted also.

James K · August 15, 2016, 08:21 PM

True enough, to a point. But any of those old breaktops that can be "restored" by peening the locking lugs or the hand (another commonly used "trick") will not last long and those "fixes" will soon be back to where they were before. For a gun owner to try those things is one thing, but I don't advise it for a professional gunsmith. You fix the gun once, and in a few shots it stops working again. If you can fix it again, it will go bad again in another few shots. Meantime, you are (or should be) getting paid for your time. Whether you spend an hour working on, say, installing a scope, or the same hour trying to tighten up an old Iver Johnson, is up to you. But the scope job will probably work fine, while the breaktop job will be back to haunt you.

I found it was better just to tell the gun owner that the gun was 1) cheap to begin with, 2) worn out, and 3) was not economically repairable. In a few cases, the customer would question my intelligence and tell me that some shop or someone someplace would fix the old gun "like new" for $5 or whatever. I, with expressions of deep regret, suggested that the gun be taken to that shop.

Jim

Dixie Gunsmithing · August 16, 2016, 07:07 AM

Not necessarily, Jim, as the rear of two lugs are the locking surface for the latch, and the reason why it is loose is because the lugs flat surface had worn down, thus the needed metal in the rear. When you pein them down, (not much at all), at the rear top corner, they shorten, and swell, giving you the material you need to rework them for a tight fit. Of course you have to tell them, that after peining, they will not be flush with the top of the latch, but I've never found one who cared for that on one of these. They are probably 0.005" shy of the top at the most, at the rear, after peining, as it doesn't take much to tighten one up. One looser than that, would require welding to add metal, since you would be loosing grip area for the latch. If done right, you will have two straight flat lugs, after peining and filing, on each side, and not a small contact point for the latch. The front of the latch will have a full seat on each, minus about 0.005" at the top. That top portion is slightly beveled, to allow the latch to swing past anyhow.

I don't think they will quickly wear out, no more than they originally did, because the operations that did it to get them in that shape, are the constant opening and closing, along with firing. It might wear out sooner than one would that was new, but you still have a working gun for a good amount time.

These revolver frames, firing .32 shorts, weren't heat treated that I can tell, as they are pretty soft, and easily nicked with a file. I've checked them with a file before, inside and out, and the lugs are soft too. That is why I mentioned only two licks with a file at a time, as they cut quick.

The only other way, would be to add some weld to the lugs, via TIG, and work that down. The problem is, these guns aren't worth much, and the owners wont pay much to get them back into working order. That leaves one with this option, if that is all that is causing the problem.

The one the neighbor had, was actually in excellent shape, for its age, only having looseness at the latch, and not the hinge joint, nor a bad cylinder stop, extractor ratchet, or hand.

This all being said, no I would not want one to try this at home, without being supervised by a Gunsmith, because you could make them looser, and make them dangerous to shoot, if they are shootable. You only get one chance using this method, as you don't have much metal to keep peining to swell the lugs, to begin with, and they have to be filed flat, to the same dimensions that they were originally.

Dixie Gunsmithing · August 16, 2016, 10:14 AM

Here is how the lugs should look on an Iver Johnson, and some H&R two-lug revolvers. When you pien the two top back edges, with the flat head of the hammer, it expands the two cams outward, toward the hammer, so you have to file them back into this shape, keeping their faces flat. The photo is from an Iver Johnson, two-lug hammerless. The one from yesterday was an exposed hammer, but the lugs and latch are the same. If you notice, the latch rests down onto the two cam surfaces at their center. About middle way down is where they wear. Some have a slanted lug, instead of convex, but the peining displaces enough metal, that one can file the two surfaces flat, where the latch resides. It only takes about 0.002" wear on the lugs to cause one to loosen up, but I have seen them worn worse.

Though they will bulge back, like one wants, they also bulge to either side, so that both sides of each lug has to be flattened first, so the backstrap will close over them, and the latch will drop between them. What little you loose on top, about 0.005" is negligible, since the latch holds it at the middle of the cam.

James K · August 17, 2016, 08:21 PM

Everything you say is true and all but the worst cases can be "fixed" that way (or by some similar technique). But the "fix" won't last any more than the original did, plus it requires careful and time consuming work. I do not say it is not a good idea, and I (like most gunsmiths) have done that or similar work from time to time.

What I am saying is that it is only a temporary fix at best because with all the parts being soft the fix won't hold and eventually you end up with a PO'd customer because "you fixed it before, why can't you fix it again". That is a losing proposition, in both money and good will.

FWIW, I have even seen an IJ fixed by cutting away the locking faces on the frame and installing hardened shims, then machining a new hardened latch from cold rolled steel. The charge was $20. It was a beautiful job by a retired NASA machinist who knew exactly what he was doing. But for any practicing gunsmith to duplicate such precision for near nothing would lead straight to bankruptcy.

Jim

Dixie Gunsmithing · August 18, 2016, 11:08 AM

That, and the customer will not pay to have two hardened lugs ends made and silver soldered on a cheap pistol. I have actually had some of these brought in, years back, that were looser than Asa Breeney's revolver, (the bank guard on the Andy Griffith Show). Most of these old top-break Iver Johnson and H&R belly guns run about $120 to $200, at the most, today. They have to be in extraordinarily good shape the bring over $200. Some are not worth but selling to Numrich as parts guns.

I guess that Iver Johnson and H&R, years ago, made them as cheep as possible, and the most powerful cartridges that were used in them were either .32 short, or standard velocity .22 LR, so they made the frames of soft steel. S&W made some too, but I can't recall if their frames were hardened. You don't see them as much.

These remind me of the cheaper single-shot shotguns, such as the 94 Stevens, where the hinge joint and the locking bevel on the barrel lump would wear down, allowing them to loosen up. On them, I did add weld, just about a 1/4" spot on the bevel (and less in the concave hinge cuts), and reshape, where they were large enough parts to handle a little heat without destroying the barrel, and refit them. The only alternative, was punch peining the steel in the hinge, and on the barrel lumps bevel. Those always wear out quick over peining with a punch. Of course, you have to tell the customer of that before you do it. They either pay a little, and it wear out quick, or pay more to get it done correctly.

kraigwy · August 19, 2016, 08:29 AM

I'm going to assume we're talking about, Sometimes on the top break revolver, the cylinder stop doesn't pop up to lock the cylinder in place.

Or the hand doesn't always rotate the cylinder.

If I'm on the same page, would the procedures mention work on a S&W Model 3?

I have one that belonged to my grandfather in 44 Russian. It works well enough most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't rotate, and sometimes the cylinder doesn't lock.

Dixie Gunsmithing · August 19, 2016, 10:18 AM

Kraig, it could be, but without checking the other things, such as making sure that the cylinder hand and extractor ratchet are okay, and that the cylinder stop is working correctly, there's no way of knowing for sure, unless a smith takes a look at it.

What you can do, is do the test that I mentioned, by taking off the grips, placing the grip portion of the frame in a vise, then hold pressure up on the front of the barrel, and see if it works properly by working the action. If it does, then it may just be looseness in the latch that is causing it. It could also be too loose in the hinge joint too.

If it is the hinge joint, you can generally tell with the revolver broke open, by seeing if their is any slack in the hinge itself by trying to move or wiggle it in the frame. If it is solid, with no movement other than opening easily, it could just be a loose latch.

Generally, you can notice worn down spots on the latch lugs sticking up on top of the frame, where the latch has rubbed, if it is loose. If it seems that you can work the two halves open a small amount, seeing a gap where the latch is, which is showing slack, it may just be the lugs worn.

If the cylinder stop does not come back up to lock the cylinder, then you have a problem with it, or its spring.

g.willikers · August 19, 2016, 11:52 AM

I had quite a few of those in both .32 and .22 back in my youth.
They all worked well as long as I had them.
But folks didn't waste ammo in those days.
Fifty rounds was a lot to shoot in a day, even a month come to think.
I've worn out and discarded a couple of break top pellet revolvers for the same issue, though.

Wonder if the the modern Uberti versions suffer the same fate.

jdscholer · August 20, 2016, 10:52 AM

I'd also like to add that keeping the main hinge screw and latch screw in proper tension, will help to keep the overall system in good health with extended use. jd

Dixie Gunsmithing · August 20, 2016, 01:15 PM

g.willikers, I do not know, but Uberti makes some fine replicas of the Schofield. My guess is, that since they are .38 Special and .45 Colt, that they use much better steel in the frames. I would venture a guess that the frames are heat treated too.

These old Iver Johnson and H&R revolvers, or belly guns, used such a low pressure round that they used mild steel frames. They may have heat treated the barrel and cylinder, (I've never checked those), but the frames are pretty darn soft when you hit one with a file. Sadly, some of the other parts were mild steel too.

I had a top break H&R .22, and it was actually a nice accurate revolver. I bought it new, years back, but traded it in on a High Standard Sportking. That was back in the 1980s.

August 15, 2016, 01:11 PM	#1
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	How-To, Top break Iver Johnson and H&R If you run into an old Iver Johnson or H&R top break revolver, that is having a problem with the cylinder not wanting to rotate, some times this is not caused by either the hand of the cylinder stop, but loose locking of the frame at the latch. Grasp the barrel and the grip with two hands, and see if there is any slop in the barrel wanting to lift from the frame, due to the latch being loose. It does not take much, just a small amount of slack. If you have this problem, open the revolver, cock the hammer, and with a small ball pein hammer, swell the metal, (toward the hammer), of the two lugs that the latch fits over, by striking the back corner of each. This does not take much to do, only a few good raps, and do not wail on them. Afterward, the lugs will then need to be fitted by filing. Another test, is to take off the grips, place the frame in a padded vise, and lift up on the barrel, applying pressure upwards, to see if the cylinder will rotate properly, when cocking or pulling the trigger. If it rotates properly, then you have found the culprit. After peining the lugs, first file the sides of the lugs, (the top corner on each side), and between them, making them flat with a pillar file, to make sure that nothing hampers the two haves swinging closed, and then, gradually, with only a few file licks at a time, reshape the rear cam surface of the two lugs so that the latch will close over them. Keep checking the fit with every two file licks. The trick is to get the slack out of the hinge joint, with the latch easy to lock and lift. I just helped a neighbor bring another old Iver Johnson back to life, showing him how to perform these steps. With a little work, what was once a revolver with the cylinder hanging up at every trigger pull, came back to life. Note; the hinge joint can loosen too, and that might have to be adjusted also.

August 19, 2016, 08:29 AM	#7
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I'm going to assume we're talking about, Sometimes on the top break revolver, the cylinder stop doesn't pop up to lock the cylinder in place. Or the hand doesn't always rotate the cylinder. If I'm on the same page, would the procedures mention work on a S&W Model 3? I have one that belonged to my grandfather in 44 Russian. It works well enough most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't rotate, and sometimes the cylinder doesn't lock. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

August 19, 2016, 11:52 AM	#9
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	I had quite a few of those in both .32 and .22 back in my youth. They all worked well as long as I had them. But folks didn't waste ammo in those days. Fifty rounds was a lot to shoot in a day, even a month come to think. I've worn out and discarded a couple of break top pellet revolvers for the same issue, though. Wonder if the the modern Uberti versions suffer the same fate. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

August 20, 2016, 10:52 AM	#10
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	I'd also like to add that keeping the main hinge screw and latch screw in proper tension, will help to keep the overall system in good health with extended use. jd __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

August 15, 2016, 08:21 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	True enough, to a point. But any of those old breaktops that can be "restored" by peening the locking lugs or the hand (another commonly used "trick") will not last long and those "fixes" will soon be back to where they were before. For a gun owner to try those things is one thing, but I don't advise it for a professional gunsmith. You fix the gun once, and in a few shots it stops working again. If you can fix it again, it will go bad again in another few shots. Meantime, you are (or should be) getting paid for your time. Whether you spend an hour working on, say, installing a scope, or the same hour trying to tighten up an old Iver Johnson, is up to you. But the scope job will probably work fine, while the breaktop job will be back to haunt you. I found it was better just to tell the gun owner that the gun was 1) cheap to begin with, 2) worn out, and 3) was not economically repairable. In a few cases, the customer would question my intelligence and tell me that some shop or someone someplace would fix the old gun "like new" for $5 or whatever. I, with expressions of deep regret, suggested that the gun be taken to that shop. Jim

August 16, 2016, 07:07 AM	#3
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Not necessarily, Jim, as the rear of two lugs are the locking surface for the latch, and the reason why it is loose is because the lugs flat surface had worn down, thus the needed metal in the rear. When you pein them down, (not much at all), at the rear top corner, they shorten, and swell, giving you the material you need to rework them for a tight fit. Of course you have to tell them, that after peining, they will not be flush with the top of the latch, but I've never found one who cared for that on one of these. They are probably 0.005" shy of the top at the most, at the rear, after peining, as it doesn't take much to tighten one up. One looser than that, would require welding to add metal, since you would be loosing grip area for the latch. If done right, you will have two straight flat lugs, after peining and filing, on each side, and not a small contact point for the latch. The front of the latch will have a full seat on each, minus about 0.005" at the top. That top portion is slightly beveled, to allow the latch to swing past anyhow. I don't think they will quickly wear out, no more than they originally did, because the operations that did it to get them in that shape, are the constant opening and closing, along with firing. It might wear out sooner than one would that was new, but you still have a working gun for a good amount time. These revolver frames, firing .32 shorts, weren't heat treated that I can tell, as they are pretty soft, and easily nicked with a file. I've checked them with a file before, inside and out, and the lugs are soft too. That is why I mentioned only two licks with a file at a time, as they cut quick. The only other way, would be to add some weld to the lugs, via TIG, and work that down. The problem is, these guns aren't worth much, and the owners wont pay much to get them back into working order. That leaves one with this option, if that is all that is causing the problem. The one the neighbor had, was actually in excellent shape, for its age, only having looseness at the latch, and not the hinge joint, nor a bad cylinder stop, extractor ratchet, or hand. This all being said, no I would not want one to try this at home, without being supervised by a Gunsmith, because you could make them looser, and make them dangerous to shoot, if they are shootable. You only get one chance using this method, as you don't have much metal to keep peining to swell the lugs, to begin with, and they have to be filed flat, to the same dimensions that they were originally.

August 17, 2016, 08:21 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Everything you say is true and all but the worst cases can be "fixed" that way (or by some similar technique). But the "fix" won't last any more than the original did, plus it requires careful and time consuming work. I do not say it is not a good idea, and I (like most gunsmiths) have done that or similar work from time to time. What I am saying is that it is only a temporary fix at best because with all the parts being soft the fix won't hold and eventually you end up with a PO'd customer because "you fixed it before, why can't you fix it again". That is a losing proposition, in both money and good will. FWIW, I have even seen an IJ fixed by cutting away the locking faces on the frame and installing hardened shims, then machining a new hardened latch from cold rolled steel. The charge was $20. It was a beautiful job by a retired NASA machinist who knew exactly what he was doing. But for any practicing gunsmith to duplicate such precision for near nothing would lead straight to bankruptcy. Jim

August 18, 2016, 11:08 AM	#6
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	That, and the customer will not pay to have two hardened lugs ends made and silver soldered on a cheap pistol. I have actually had some of these brought in, years back, that were looser than Asa Breeney's revolver, (the bank guard on the Andy Griffith Show). Most of these old top-break Iver Johnson and H&R belly guns run about $120 to $200, at the most, today. They have to be in extraordinarily good shape the bring over $200. Some are not worth but selling to Numrich as parts guns. I guess that Iver Johnson and H&R, years ago, made them as cheep as possible, and the most powerful cartridges that were used in them were either .32 short, or standard velocity .22 LR, so they made the frames of soft steel. S&W made some too, but I can't recall if their frames were hardened. You don't see them as much. These remind me of the cheaper single-shot shotguns, such as the 94 Stevens, where the hinge joint and the locking bevel on the barrel lump would wear down, allowing them to loosen up. On them, I did add weld, just about a 1/4" spot on the bevel (and less in the concave hinge cuts), and reshape, where they were large enough parts to handle a little heat without destroying the barrel, and refit them. The only alternative, was punch peining the steel in the hinge, and on the barrel lumps bevel. Those always wear out quick over peining with a punch. Of course, you have to tell the customer of that before you do it. They either pay a little, and it wear out quick, or pay more to get it done correctly.

August 19, 2016, 10:18 AM	#8
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Kraig, it could be, but without checking the other things, such as making sure that the cylinder hand and extractor ratchet are okay, and that the cylinder stop is working correctly, there's no way of knowing for sure, unless a smith takes a look at it. What you can do, is do the test that I mentioned, by taking off the grips, placing the grip portion of the frame in a vise, then hold pressure up on the front of the barrel, and see if it works properly by working the action. If it does, then it may just be looseness in the latch that is causing it. It could also be too loose in the hinge joint too. If it is the hinge joint, you can generally tell with the revolver broke open, by seeing if their is any slack in the hinge itself by trying to move or wiggle it in the frame. If it is solid, with no movement other than opening easily, it could just be a loose latch. Generally, you can notice worn down spots on the latch lugs sticking up on top of the frame, where the latch has rubbed, if it is loose. If it seems that you can work the two halves open a small amount, seeing a gap where the latch is, which is showing slack, it may just be the lugs worn. If the cylinder stop does not come back up to lock the cylinder, then you have a problem with it, or its spring.

August 20, 2016, 01:15 PM	#11
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	g.willikers, I do not know, but Uberti makes some fine replicas of the Schofield. My guess is, that since they are .38 Special and .45 Colt, that they use much better steel in the frames. I would venture a guess that the frames are heat treated too. These old Iver Johnson and H&R revolvers, or belly guns, used such a low pressure round that they used mild steel frames. They may have heat treated the barrel and cylinder, (I've never checked those), but the frames are pretty darn soft when you hit one with a file. Sadly, some of the other parts were mild steel too. I had a top break H&R .22, and it was actually a nice accurate revolver. I bought it new, years back, but traded it in on a High Standard Sportking. That was back in the 1980s.