reloading for Brazilian contract model1917 revolver

[Varel]

Since a year or two i got into reloading.
My s&w model 1917 is a challenge to reload for.

It shoots reasonably with FMJ Gecco or Fiocchi factory but I'm afraid i will shoot the barrel out with factory ammo.

It shoots great with Sierra bullets 230 grains and Vectan BA 10 4.0 grains (Same issue: FMJ bullet)
BA 10 is a French powder, really fast burning. If I use anything slower i end up with a pile of powder residue on the ground in front of me after a session at the range.

With cast bullets 230 grains,sized .452 or .451 i don't get a decent group at all.

my barrel is .451 but my cylinder throats are way over .454 (a .45LC bullet sized .454 still has play).

My plan is to resize a batch of .454 cast long colt bullets to .452 and work my way up from 3,2 grains of Vectan BA10.
I read somewhere that a longer bullet tends to be more accurate in a revolver with oversized throats. The lead bullets being softer than the FMJ bullets should extend the barrel lifetime.

Does someone has experienced the same problems with their 1917 revolver?

[reddog81]

Load some .454 bullets and go from there. I've had good luck with bullets sized to .452 and then powder coated, which ends up being about .454. Any cast bullet smaller than that will be less than optimal.

I don't know anything about BA 10 powder so I can't help you there... is 4.0 grains a start load, max load or some where in-between. I have no concerns about wearing out my barrels in the old guns using cast bullets. The timing, end shake, or general part breakage will occur much sooner than barrel wear.

[Varel]

4.0 is near a maximum load with a 230 grains bullet( only it doesn't feel like a maximum load in my revolver but when i put the same rounds in a 1911 they do feel like hotter loads). So i gues a 3.2 grains charge might be a safe starting point for a 250 grains bullet
If I use a .454 bullet and my barrel is only .451, isn't that to much of a difference?
I was tempted to use the .454 bullets but got scared and desided to resize them to .452 before using them.
In .454 they would be a better match with my cylinder throats. Can they sqeeze themselves through the bore without cousing damage or dangerous pressures?

[reddog81]

Cast bullets will get sized down with out any issue.

I've shot some 250 grain .45 Colt bullets without any issues. Lately I've been working with light bullets closer to 155 grains. The heavy bullets will print higher (because they're moving slower and in the barrel for longer) and the lighter bullets will print lower. Currently I' m trying to find the best powder to use for a 155 grain bullet around 850 FPS that way they should hit pretty close to POA with light recoil.

It shouldn't be too hard to find load data for .45 Auto Rim or .45 ACP with heavier bullets. I've heard of people shooting the 250 grain bullets in auto-loaders.

[Jim Watson]

A lead .454" should size itself right down in a good barrel forcing cone.

Undersize lead bullets are more prone to leading, but I don't know how bad it will get in the chamber throats.
I would try some coated .452"s probably a Keith revolver style semiwadcutter.

[Varel]

I have some data printed out for 250 grain bullets in a .45 ACP using VV310 somewhere...

Thanks for the help. Now i am reassured using a .454 bullet isn't ridiculously dangerous i'll give it a try.

[RC20]

Keep in mind, what usually wears out in a gun is the throat.

That is a power burn issue. Lots of powder, lots of gas erosion.

I don't know that Pistols have a wear out aspect you need to worry about.

The forcing cone yes. So not a materials issue as much a power and hot fast loads issue. Shoot as mild a load as suits the need.

A 308 or 30-06 will last 5,000 rounds of milgary loads, more if you throttle back.

Someone just did a 13,000 + round test on a Sig semi auto. I will see if I can snag that magazine and see what they reported. In that case there is no forcing cone.

[Varel]

I went to the range this evening to test my loads:
250 grains lead flat nose bullet sized .454

3.1 grains of BA 1O and 3.3 grains
My long colt bullets have a crimping groove. Didn't measure the COL

Both loads were more accurate than every load I tried before with .45 acp bullets for my model 1917.

They need a bit more spice because i have had some bullets bouncing back at me almost intact after shooting steel targets. I have had that issue before with other loads that were not powerful enough at those specific steel targets and increasing the load so the bullets flattened out on the target solved that.
As soon as that is solved i'm pleased with it.

[Jim Watson]

Glad it is working for you.
As P.O. Ackley said of oversize bullets, "By the time it has traveled its own length it will FIT the barrel."

[RickB]

I've been loading for by Hand Ejector Mk. II with M1917 cylinder; barrel groove diameter is .457", so nothing loaded with bullets of .451"-.452" is going to be accurate.
I decided to try Remington 250gr bullets intended for .45 Colt, not knowing if they would fit in the cylinder.
Loaded rounds don't drop in, but an easy push will seat a loaded moon clip.

The gun would not stay on a paper plate at ten yards with any ACP ammo, but even with windage adjustments after every six rounds, I put 24 rounds of the .45 Colt bullets into three inches at a paced-off 13 yards.

[Unclenick]

Varel,

Your story is not uncommon. Bullets sized for the chamber throat diameters always works best. Half a thousandth under throat diameter to equalling throat diameter seems to be about ideal. Indeed, that is more exact than the throat consistency usually is From one chamber to the next, which is why the first step in accurizing a revolver is to ream all the throats to uniform diameter by using a maximum diameter chamber reamer. Custom molds or bullet bumping in a lubrisizer may be needed afterward.

The other common issue is a constriction where the barrel screws into a revolver frame. To learn whether or not you have one you have to slug the barrel (you can search the forum on how to do this). If you have one it has to be lapped out to maximize accuracy, but it also makes the gun easier to clean.

[Slamfire]

I have one of those. It will not shoot cast bullets well until you find a bullet of large enough diameter. Mine shot to point of aim with 230 FMJ's, leaded with any lead bullet of 0.452". I found 0.454" 250 cast and used those. Go light on these pistols, absolutely never, ever, use "Elmer Keith" loads.

I got tired of loading half moon clips and went Auto Rim cases. I think this is the best way to go on these.

Brazilian M1917 45 Auto Rim

250 LRN (.454) 4.5 grs Bullseye thrown, R-P AR cases, CCI300 primers
20-Jan-02 T = 44°F

Ave Vel = 754
Std Dev = 10
ES = 39.5
Low = 744
High = 783
N = 14

Mild recoil, aimpt 5 OC, accurate


250 Nosler JHP (.4515) 8.0 grs Blue Dot thrown, mixed cases, FED150 primers
20-Jan-02 T = 44°F

Ave Vel = 749
Std Dev = 24
ES = 87.8
Low = 709
High = 797
N = 12

mild recoil, aimpt 5 O'Clock

[deserted]

Guess I just got lucky. The same 200gr SWC, 5.5/HP38 .45ACP load makes major and shoots well in my 1911, my 1955 Target, and both Colt and S&W 1917s.

[Varel]

Unclenick,

Thank you very much for the advice but those procedures are more than i am looking for.
Reasonable accuracy is enough for an average shooter like me. And it looks like i have found the way to get that using the long colt bullets 250 grains .454
I can shoot the 1917 as good as my ruger super blackhack .44 now and that is already more than i hoped for.
Glad to learn about it though!

[Varel]

About auto rim cases: Have been looking for them since i bought the 1917 more than a decade ago but can not find them here in Belgium. Can't order them in the US in a simple manner legaly. Arms dealers probably can but it wouldn't be worth the effort for them.
Does annyone know where in western Europe they are for sale?

[Unclenick]

None of the usual European (east or west) makers I looked at have the auto rim cartridges in their lines, so they don't make the brass, either. Too small a market, I am sure. Since these cases are readily available here, you might inquire of arms and ammunition importers to see if a special order could be piggy-backed onto something they are importing already. I can't think of any other course off hand.

[Paul B.]

Varel, you might try the 230 gr. bullets sized to .453" and .454" thus be able to use normal .45 ACP loads. I only shoot cast bullets in all my handguns and my Colt Single action has a groove diameter of .452". It take a .454" bullet to get any accuracy from that gun. I run the ACP bullet at .452" for my 1911's but should check out the size unsized.
Paul B.

[Mike Irwin]

I have a first series Brazilian contract. It has the old wing hammer block.

I keep loads fairly sedate for it, and I also generally do not shoot hardball through it -- only lead.

The chamber mouths on the S&W 1917s generally run pretty large. There's some thought that this was done intentionally during WW I in order to keep chamber pressures down with military hardball ammo.

[Slamfire]

The chamber mouths on the S&W 1917s generally run pretty large. There's some thought that this was done intentionally during WW I in order to keep chamber pressures down with military hardball ammo.

Military hardball during WW1 was a 230 FMJ going 800 fps, the standard load was 5.0 grains Bullseye. This is not a magnum load at all, and would have been the WW2 era load, plus or minus.







The Brazilian models were made in 1937, why they kept those large chamber mouths that late, I have no idea.

Did the 45ACP target revolvers that S&W made have similarly large chamber mouths?

[Mike Irwin]

"Military hardball during WW1 was a 230 FMJ going 800 fps, the standard load was 5.0 grains Bullseye. This is not a magnum load at all, and would have been the WW2 era load, plus or minus."

No, it wasn't. But heat treating standards were apparently significantly relaxed during the the war because they needed the guns, especially after the Army took over production in 1917.

To compensate, the chamber mouths were held large to reduce pressure and wear.

Once a "standard" is established, it tends to remain a standard for quite some time because, well, it worked before, why change it?



"The Brazilian models were made in 1937, why they kept those large chamber mouths that late, I have no idea."

The first batch was made in 1937, and apparently some used left over US military-made frames and other parts that were still hanging around.

The second batch was delivered to Brazil post WW II, and were made with new frames and used the new hammer block.

[ATCDoktor]

I bought this one 10 years ago for a song:



It’s been parkerized at some point in its past and somebody filed the front sight down a skosh.

When I bought it it was wearing a set of hogue rubber grips but swapped those out for a set of late model magna grips.

It’ll shoot .452 diameter 200 grain SWC’s just about to the POA with 4.3 grains of HP 38.

Edited to add:

A .451 FMJ bullet is a snug fit in all the throats on my Brazilian.