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Old October 5, 2017, 02:26 PM   #76
RC20
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Another way you could approach it is the guy could have just bought the real deal.. he didn't need a bump stock.. it actually would have been worse probably if he had as a true FA will have a even higher rate of fire.
That's BS. He may have done damage but killed 59?

How about one fewer death?

You think that person and their family and loved one would not be grateful?

How about 10 few, or 20, or 30?

How about no copy cat?

Bumps stocks allowed this carnage and high death rate.
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:27 PM   #77
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If you indulge the argument that bump stocks should be banned because of the results obtainable you play right into the argument that all semi auto's are to deadly to be of legit use.
I disagree.
A semi auto is more accurate, more controllable and fires a known number of shots if you put your finger on the trigger and pull: one. A bump-fire stock does none of those things...

So, for me one can't apply the arguments against a bump-fire stock to a regular semi-auto.

And I get the arguments made earlier about appeasement, but Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler: a homicidal megalomaniac. That was never going to work because Hitler was the one and only power in Germany at that time.

In the US, the power is still (thankfully) with the people. Most of them may not want outright bans on semis but I bet many will find the existence of slide-fire stocks difficult to justify in RKBA terms for the average member of the public, given that FA's are ATF controlled, and tightly at that. Particularly as they are basically just for messing around. There are no comps that I know of that use these stocks, anyone that used one in an SD/HD situation would have the book thrown at them etc.

It is that public that will vote for senators and congressmen/women in the future and you run the risk of them turning against the fire-arms owning community if Congress were to look at this outrage against humanity and not "do anything". The fact is it will probably happen again and frankly I'm surprised it hadn't happened sooner.

Sadly, often there is nothing that can be done because a person on the brink of insanity, who wants to hurt will find a way. As I said earlier, Nice and Berlin showed that, but the voting public still always think that something can be done. That a risk free existence is just a question of law-making, when really it is an unachievable goal....
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:28 PM   #78
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What I haven't been able to glean is where does the NRA stand on the proposed legislation? My membership is up for renewal and my decision will hinge on their position. And yes, I'm perfectly willing to die on this hill. Not one more step backwards
Yea, I here the talk but where were you when Bush started wire taping the entire country with the so called Patriot Act?

Talk is cheap.
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:30 PM   #79
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Wow.. Ok Im gonna let someone else give your post the attention it deserves.

But let me just ask you one question would you be in favor of applying all current gun laws to civilian government agencies.. IE: civil law enforcement like swat squads would have to buy off the 86 MG registry or just go without their m4's and mp5's?
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:30 PM   #80
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I disagree.
A semi auto is more accurate, more controllable and fires a known number of shots if you put your finger on the trigger and pull: one. A bump-fire stock does none of those things...

So, for me one can't apply the arguments against a bump-fire stock to a regular semi-auto.

A semi auto is designed to deliver fire fast and if you train, accurately.

I agree bump stock has a mass fire intent.

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Rapid Fire Device: An ancillary device that, when attached to the firearm, harnesses mechanical energy by means of a crank, lever, or recoil-actuated spring, or other combination of parts, to repeatedly and automatically actuate the trigger of the firearm without the operator having to manually and deliberately actuate the trigger for each individual shot.
Fully agreed. Needs to be changed to Harnesses mechanical energy OR by means of a crank ...... etc

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Old October 5, 2017, 02:36 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by RC20 View Post
That's BS. He may have done damage but killed 59?

How about one fewer death?

You think that person and their family and loved one would not be grateful?

How about 10 few, or 20, or 30?

How about no copy cat?

Bumps stocks allowed this carnage and high death rate.
WOW OMG, so based on the video they clocked his rate of fire around 600rpm.. but a full auto ar15 (same thing as a m16 at that point) runs 700-950 according to wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_ri...wiki/M16_rifle


So you're telling me a registered transferable full auto ar15 running at least 700rpm
is LESS deadly then a ar15 with a bump stock running at 600rpm?

I think your math skills might be a bit rusty..
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:38 PM   #82
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So you're telling me a registered transferable full auto ar15 running at least 700rpm
is LESS deadly then a ar15 with a bump stock running at 600rpm?

I think your math skills might be a bit rusty..
You miss the point

He did not have an FA

He had 13 (apparently ) bump stocks.

If he could not get a bump stock or it was homemade and did not work the death toll would have been lower.

People keep their FA well locked up.
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:42 PM   #83
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And you missed MY point, If not the bump stock he could have just bought the real thing.. transferable full auto's..

He had a clean background and millions of dollars.

If you're gonna quote me respond to what I say and not the thoughts racing in your head.
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:43 PM   #84
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But let me just ask you one question would you be in favor of applying all current gun laws to civilian government agencies.. IE: civil law enforcement like swat squads would have to buy off the 86 MG registry or just go without their m4's and mp5's?
Folks this is what is called a PIVOT.

You should read Al Franken book "Lion of the Senate" to understand it (he expose a lot of reptilian lies in the process, though the Demos have their own lies)

By definition of the 2nd Amendmentors , police the the goberment having all those auto weapons is why we need to have them to defend ourselves against the goberment.

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Could ATF just make an administrative ruling which would eliminate the sale, use or even possession of slide fire stocks? From what I have read ATF has said in the past slidefire stocks are "legal" so it seems possible they could reconsider their position. The way I understand the agency they have a great amount of discretion as to how firearms laws are applied.
Correct. Depends on who is head of the ATF.
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:50 PM   #85
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And according to the news, the NRA is open to regulating bump-fire devices...

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I disagree.
A semi auto is more accurate, more controllable and fires a known number of shots if you put your finger on the trigger and pull: one. A bump-fire stock does none of those things...
For the distances he was shooting, he was basically shooting an area target and not point targets. Law enforcement thinks he may have tried to shoot the fuel tanks at the airport because there were a couple of impacts on them (2). The targets are located indirectly behind the concert venue from where the shooter was. My guess is that he just lost control of his guns while firing and a couple of rounds just happened to hit the tanks, nothing more.

I concur that he could have been more effective with a semi-auto and aimed fire over that period of time than he was with bump-fire.
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:50 PM   #86
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2. A mag fed bolt action in the right hands with a good scope, less injured, more dead.
Also a crock. When was the last bolt action killing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer...tower_shooting

19 dead. Expert shooter. Note the many fewer dead? Perfect no, better yes.

Kenedy: Former Marine.

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Nothing proposed would have stopped this guy. He was wealthy. He could have legally bought numerous machine guns if he so desired. A law against slide fire stocks would not have hindered him in any way. He had a pilot's license and a couple of airplanes. Think of the carnage he could have inflicted if he kamikazied into that crowd in an airplane filled with a fertilizer bomb. We must stop passing laws just so we can say we did something to feel good about ourselves.
He did not though did he. Doing so would have gotten attention.

13 Slide Fir stocks in the room?

Non wealthy copy cats.

Don't' change the subject off the subject.

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Add the Hearing Protection Act and CHL reciprocity and call it done.
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Otherwise known as lets turn silencers into the Slide Fire Stocks of tomorrow and let the quiet massacres begin.

If it can be used for evil purposes it will be.

Got your anti virus up to date?

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Lotta issues here. Part of it is that those proposing to ban bump fire stocks don't understand how easy it would be to make one, nor that you don't need the stock to bump fire.
And making it smooth and workable is much harder.

No single answer, but slow things down, make it harder, maybe detect it before it goes lethal .

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So, you think the Second Amendment is about arms that "suitable for sporting purposes"?
Nope, you can only have a gun if you are part of and train with a Militia.
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Old October 5, 2017, 02:59 PM   #87
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Folks this is what is called a PIVOT.

You should read Al Franken book "Lion of the Senate" to understand it (he expose a lot of reptilian lies in the process, though the Demos have their own lies)

By definition of the 2nd Amendmentors , police the the goberment having all those auto weapons is why we need to have them to defend ourselves against the goberment.
Actually it was a question, which you didn't answer.. so I'll ask another.
Why does the government need those weapons? why are they exempt from all gun regulations?

And to be clear im talking about civilian LE not the military.

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Also a crock. When was the last bolt action killing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer...tower_shooting

19 dead. Expert shooter. Note the many fewer dead? Perfect no, better yes.

Kenedy: Former Marine.
It's been a while since I read about that but iirc there was no concert or other fuction with 22k people clustered.

I guess we need to get another concert and gunmen with a bolt action so we can test it out.. That's sarcasm for people can't understand no two "mass" shooting are exactly alike.
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:00 PM   #88
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Someone wrote earlier that a mag fed bolt action with a scope and a shooter that knew how to use that tool would have been able to "kill" double that while injuring maybe a 1/10 the amount injured . Or even a semi auto with a scope which he had . Will we even ever know if the majority of deaths were done with the slide fire stock ? It seems likely but I would like that info before casting my vote .

So is it really the bump/slide stock that allowed this to happen at the scale it did ? Injuries , yes . Deaths ,Maybe No

As for the actual rate of fire . He never came close to firing at 600rpm . That would have been 6000rds . My bet is he did not shoot more then 1000rds . Yes he had the capability to fire 600rpm but that's not how many he shot .
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY

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Old October 5, 2017, 03:00 PM   #89
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Personally, I don't feel the need to support any and all gun accessories and products just for the sake of supporting all things gun related. Prior to this shooting, I knew nothing about slide fire/bump stocks. Now that I've had the chance to research them, I see no reason why they should be legal. Their whole purpose is to circumvent the restrictions on fully automatic weapons. I think they should be banned.
Thank you for a lucid presentation.
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:01 PM   #90
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NRA goes weak at the knees: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...-shooting.html

“The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,” - joint statement from Wayne LaPierre and Chris Cox.
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:02 PM   #91
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Someone wrote earlier that a mag fed bolt action with a scope and a shooter that knew how to use that tool would have been able to "kill" double that while injuring maybe a 1/10 the amount injured . Or even a semi auto with a scope which he had . Will we even ever know if the majority of deaths were done with the slide fire stock ? It seems likely but I would like that info before casting my vote .

So is it really the bump/slide stock that allowed this to happen at the scale it did ? Injuries , yes . Deaths ,Maybe No
All data says yes and all my gut instincts say act now.

13 bump fire guns found, I heard the recordings, having heard full auto I could not tell the damned difference. Mass fire into a packed crowd with no cover and no where to go and you think it was not the bump stock?

Copy cats are now working on the same thing.

Maybe the only good news is that the supply is sucked up and they can't get them.

Joe Six make a big deal between 500 and 700 RPM. Really?
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:06 PM   #92
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No sorry , Did not mean it to sound like that , I know it was a bump stock . My point was with a different tool ( maybe better tool ) the death count could have been double .

In the future it will happen again this time with a bolt gun and the deaths will be higher . Then what do we ban ?
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If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:07 PM   #93
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Actually it was a question, which you didn't answer.. so I'll ask another.
Why does the government need those weapons? why are they exempt from all gun regulations?

And to be clear im talking about civilian LE not the military.
It was the military that the 2nd amendment was pointed to was it not?

Or have you not read the background on government power, who enforced it and the relevancy of the felt need back then?

And LE is supposed to face Slide Fire Stocks with single shots?

At least the police tend to kill people one at a time, not in large clusters.

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No sorry , Did not mean it to sound like that , I know it was a bump stock . My point was with a different tool ( maybe better tool ) the death count could have been double .
Well he was a private pilot. Buy a C207, fill it full of gasoline and do a sliding crash through the crowd?

Point is it was Slide Fire and that's point of discussing and I agree they should be banned.

I also feel the same way about more than 10 rounds in a semi auto.

And yes I do have a semi auto and it has a 10 round clip despite larger being available

Quote:
Deal with the lunatic. THAT is where the problem is. NOT his tools.
As we can't ID the lunatic before hand, we hope to have tools and safeties in place that might allow us to detect in the process.

If may be the best we can do, but slow it down, reduce the impact are all a help to a better outcome'

If we could have reduced the massacre by 5 deaths it would have been 5 more living and how many hundred of family and friends not impacted?
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:15 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by RC20
Bumps stocks allowed this carnage and high death rate.
A rented moving van, an airplane, a pressure cooker, a Dodge Charger, a knife, a baton.

Any of these can and have been used to murder. People were killed before airplanes and pressure cookers too. The families of those people surely mourned too, but that isn't a reasoned basis for prohibition of those devices.
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:19 PM   #95
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My only real worry is the ATF sending letters to owners of these devices demanding they be returned or some such.
You simply outlaw them. You make it a serious penalty to own one.

You created a grace period to turn in. If not.

You then will never take it into public and someday you may just destroy it to get it off your mind.

I recently modified a gun. I made damned sure that it met the specs to do so as there are regs involved in that. Maybe 1 in a 1000 agent might recognize it, but if I am going to have it in public its going to be legal.

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A rented moving van, an airplane, a pressure cooker, a Dodge Charger, a knife, a baton.

Any of these can and have been used to murder. People were killed before airplanes and pressure cookers too. The families of those people surely mourned too, but that isn't a reasoned basis for prohibition of those devices.
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Once again a pivot. I never said you could stop it.

You can stop this type and you can make it harder.
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:20 PM   #96
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And LE is supposed to face Slide Fire Stocks with single shots?
No it's the other way around . When the citizens are being brutalized by a fully automatic carrying tyrannical government . The citizens should only have single shots to fight back ?

Before anyone starts talking F22's and Abram tanks . May I remind you of the Posse Comitatus Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

Which forbids the use of the military to police the citizens

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Originally Posted by Wiki
The purpose of the act – in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807 – is to limit the powers of the federal government in using federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States. It was passed as an amendment to an army appropriation bill following the end of Reconstruction, and was subsequently updated in 1956 and 1981.
So if we are fighting F-16's from the air and tanks in the streets . We as a country have much bigger problems then if I have a slide fire stock and a 100rd drum magazine
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If you have some time IMO this is worth a listen/watch but it takes a few minutes to really get going .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USg3NR76XpQ&t=3265s or a picture of Mohamed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VwpwP_fIqY
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:29 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by RC20
You simply outlaw them. You make it a serious penalty to own one.
You know we already have serious penalties for shooting into crowds and killing people, right?
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:33 PM   #98
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As an FFL I never supported their legality.
Under the strict definition, they are not a MG. FUNCTIONALLY, in trained hands their function is identical- sending rounds faster than anyone could manually operate a trigger mechanism.

If you want to own one, tax stamp same as a MG.

They will no doubt be banned in the absence of one (and likely a together)- and my bet is retroactively.
If the BATFE rules they are illegal to possess, all of the people rushing out to buy them at obscene prices are paying a lot for a piece of plastic they may have to destroy.
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:38 PM   #99
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No it's the other way around . When the citizens are being brutalized by a fully automatic carrying tyrannical government . The citizens should only have single shots to fight back ?
Change the law, and make MG's legal (posties too). Good luck with that...I would support making posties legal WITH the stamp. No reason a MG should cost 10-20K and more. If you can pass the background checks, good to go same as with a pre-ban.

Otherwise, tax stamp or they should be illegal. No different than a MG strictly defined.

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You simply outlaw them. You make it a serious penalty to own one.
I believe this is exactly what is going to happen- and soon. I'd advise anyone thinking about rushing out to buy one at ten time the retail price to think twice...
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Old October 5, 2017, 03:40 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by RC20
It was the military that the 2nd amendment was pointed to was it not?
Yes AND no.

I've written about the militia at length in several past threads that I don't intend to fully rehash now.

The short version is that the Constitution places the militia under the supervision of Congress and under the command of the President. (Understand that the militia, as discussed here, was an organ of the governments of the individual states. Try not to think about today's politically motivated private militia companies; this muddles the matter.)

Leaders in some states believed that this usurped too much of their power. To address this concern when the BoR was written, the prefatory clause of the 2A ("A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State...") was added to make it clear that the federal government's power to oversee the militia did not allow the Feds to DISARM the militia.

Keep in mind that this was done in the context of shaking off a powerful and unaccountable monarchy; the fear was that another monarch would arise in Washington and abrogate the Constitution, so the states wanted the ability to fight back. Additionally, several Founding Fathers believed that a standing professional military was dangerous to the country's freedom, and therefore its role should be assumed by the militia. In these respects, the role of the 2A in relation to the militia is arguably obsolete, but fortunately that's not all there is to the 2A.

The operative clause of the 2A—the part after the comma ("...the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed")—exists independently of the prefatory clause. The SCOTUS said so in D.C. v. Heller.

In summary, the 2A defines an individual right AND explains its relationship to militia service, but the existence of the right is NOT conditional upon militia service.
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