Old Blackpowder?

SJB · December 2, 2005, 12:29 PM

Wondering if somebody could tell me about the safety of using old blackpowder. Does it become unstable or unsafe in any way? I've got a couple cans I bought about 40 years ago that I'd like to use.
thanks for any info.

DiplomaticBlackHawk · December 2, 2005, 12:39 PM

Try posting on the reloading board but I would have to say it sounds like a risk that's not worth taking.Is it really worth saying a little money??? NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even if it is stable ( if at all) I would have to say that the burn rate is gonna be ur downfall.have fun and keep em in the 10 ring

Old Dragoon · December 2, 2005, 01:25 PM

It ain't like dynamite.
You can have black powder an inch deep in your garage and unless there is a flame introduced, it won't go. Not so with Gasoline as the fumes can ignite from a gas water heater. With the BP unless you kick it into the Pilot light flame of the water heater it will not go.

If it has been kept dry it is probably still good.
Pour a little bit out on a rock or cement floor and make a trail of it like in the movies and light it off. It'll suprise you I'm a betting. I bought 2 25lb cans in 1968 just before legislation was enacted about buying that much. this fall i discovered a priming horn still full of the Dupont FFFFG. I did the above to get rid of it as I had to fly back here with the priming horn and I didn't want any hassles.
I went just like it would have and did in 1968.
There are others on this forum that have BP older than 40 years.

Low Key · December 2, 2005, 01:35 PM

I agree with Dragoon, who knows lots more about powder than I do, but my advice would be use the stuff, have fun shooting and use the normal caution you would if the stuff were brand new. As far as I know BP does not degrade with age as long as it stays dry and it doesn't get the unstable hiccups like dynamite will...different animals different behavior.

Old Dragoon · December 2, 2005, 02:30 PM

I have even had BP get wet and dried clumped. I broke it up as best as I could then poured it out into a tin and crushed it up. It burned just like the never wet stuff too. This again was the Dupont Black Powder.
The Elephant BP I'm using today is stamped 1997 on the tins.

Remington kid · December 2, 2005, 03:28 PM

You should have no problems at all. It may be a little less potent, but hey! So am I at my age

tinker2 · December 2, 2005, 03:33 PM

Trust me when I say that I am no expert on black powder but
some where in the back of my brain, way back in the dark part
I remember reading ( in the 1960’s ) that very old black powder
could go to what the article called high order. It clamed that
black powder could increase in power with age. It went on to
say that some artillery projectiles from the civil war had increased
in power, a lot.

I have black powder, like FFFF g, that is maybe that old, 40 years
that is.

What ever you do, be safe.
Happy Holidays.

tinker2 · December 2, 2005, 03:48 PM

Remington Kid
Quote:
“It may be a little less potent, but hey! So am I at my age”

Gee, the older I get the more important I am. Least ways
that what the old Dr. said to me??

mec · December 2, 2005, 07:41 PM

Ive shot some 40-60 year old dupont and the only difference was that velocities were just a little slower than new goex- probably nothing but a difference in lots of powder rather than age. The people who know about such things tell me the black powder in 100 year old cartriges is probably still good. Any misfires will probably come from the primers.

Remington kid · December 3, 2005, 12:43 PM

Tink, I found that to be true up to and through my 40's. Then I went down hill from there. I still get that good old feeling every now and then but not like I used to. Now I would rather dream about black smoke and that 6 shot one hole in the target thing

Jim Watson · December 3, 2005, 01:26 PM

Black smoke?
Are we talking about guns or locomotives here?

Steve499 · December 3, 2005, 04:58 PM

I read somewhere about the Spanish conquistadores drying their wet powder in an iron breastplate over a campfire. I know it can get wet , dry out and still be good but can you imagine sitting beside an open fire stirring black powder in a piece of armor? I guess they knew Ramon's powder was dry when Juan's blew up!

Steve

Crosshair · December 3, 2005, 06:10 PM

The reason BP increasing in "power" over time is simply because the BP grains are getting ground in to finer particles over time from being transported over bumpy dirt roads on a wagon, thus they burn faster when ignited. You could burry 100 lbs of BP in an airtight container, leave it for 1000 years, someone else digs it up and it would burn the same as when it was made. The ONLY danger of using old BP is making sure that the grain size is the same and has not become smaller due to being ground by being moved alot. This is hardly an issue today since our roads are smooth and not as bumpy as they used to be. Still a good idea to test it.

Polydorus · December 7, 2005, 10:16 AM

IIRC old powder which was stored improperly was one of the reasons for the explosion aboard the USS Iowa.

Crosshair · December 7, 2005, 12:26 PM

Polydorus

IIRC old powder which was stored improperly was one of the reasons for the explosion aboard the USS Iowa.

True, but that wasn't black powder.

gmatov · December 7, 2005, 02:59 PM

Just read a big story about the Iowa explosion, and yes, it WAS black powder. Hard to believe, in this day and age, but the big guns DO use BP.

Have to go to my bookmarks, think I kept it, will post to this thread for anyone interested, but it was a mistake of either an overcharge, or an undercharge, leaving airspace, I think. Can't really recall, will have to reread..

They rammed the projectile then the powder charges, say 4 charges where it will hold 6, and load 2 dummy charges first then the 4 BP charges and ram tight. No air space, just as is preached in BP revolver and rifle shooting.

IIRC, they didn't use the makeup dummies and it blew. Wasn't murder/suicide by the boy who was homosexual.

Have to find and reread.

Cheers,

George

edit: To propel this heavy projectile forwards, the gun required six bags of black powder!
"....on that fateful day, the Navy bosses decided to use five bags of a different propellant instead (a high explosive technically known as D846). Each of these bags weighed 94 pounds."

http://www.geradts.com/anil/ij/vol_0...b/page004.html

That link is to a book review about the Sandia Labs investigating the explosion.

**4V50 Gary** · December 7, 2005, 08:55 PM

Don't worry about the stability. Unlike modern chemicals, black powder is very stable and doesn't degrade with time. At the Remington factory, they told us the story of a fellow who had a flintlock with the barrel marked Remington. It had been left loaded for generations and he asked them what to do. They had him bring it in and they examined it, pronounced it safe and told him, "Shoot it." Darn if he did too. I would have pulled the ball and saved it and the powder. Gramps or Gramps' Gramp loaded it.

If you don't want it, go to a muzzle loader shoot. They'll buy it off of you if the price is right. I would.

Sir William · December 8, 2005, 12:58 AM

I would use it, in the garden/yard. You would be surprised what old BP can do for roses. Good fertilizer.

December 2, 2005, 12:29 PM	#1
SJB Junior Member Join Date: November 11, 2005 Posts: 1	Old Blackpowder? Wondering if somebody could tell me about the safety of using old blackpowder. Does it become unstable or unsafe in any way? I've got a couple cans I bought about 40 years ago that I'd like to use. thanks for any info.

December 2, 2005, 01:25 PM	#3
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	Old BP It ain't like dynamite. You can have black powder an inch deep in your garage and unless there is a flame introduced, it won't go. Not so with Gasoline as the fumes can ignite from a gas water heater. With the BP unless you kick it into the Pilot light flame of the water heater it will not go. If it has been kept dry it is probably still good. Pour a little bit out on a rock or cement floor and make a trail of it like in the movies and light it off. It'll suprise you I'm a betting. I bought 2 25lb cans in 1968 just before legislation was enacted about buying that much. this fall i discovered a priming horn still full of the Dupont FFFFG. I did the above to get rid of it as I had to fly back here with the priming horn and I didn't want any hassles. I went just like it would have and did in 1968. There are others on this forum that have BP older than 40 years.

December 2, 2005, 01:35 PM	#4
Low Key Senior Member Join Date: September 4, 2005 Location: In the woods of TN Posts: 298	I agree with Dragoon, who knows lots more about powder than I do, but my advice would be use the stuff, have fun shooting and use the normal caution you would if the stuff were brand new. As far as I know BP does not degrade with age as long as it stays dry and it doesn't get the unstable hiccups like dynamite will...different animals different behavior. __________________

December 7, 2005, 02:59 PM	#16
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Just read a big story about the Iowa explosion, and yes, it WAS black powder. Hard to believe, in this day and age, but the big guns DO use BP. Have to go to my bookmarks, think I kept it, will post to this thread for anyone interested, but it was a mistake of either an overcharge, or an undercharge, leaving airspace, I think. Can't really recall, will have to reread.. They rammed the projectile then the powder charges, say 4 charges where it will hold 6, and load 2 dummy charges first then the 4 BP charges and ram tight. No air space, just as is preached in BP revolver and rifle shooting. IIRC, they didn't use the makeup dummies and it blew. Wasn't murder/suicide by the boy who was homosexual. Have to find and reread. Cheers, George edit: To propel this heavy projectile forwards, the gun required six bags of black powder! "....on that fateful day, the Navy bosses decided to use five bags of a different propellant instead (a high explosive technically known as D846). Each of these bags weighed 94 pounds." http://www.geradts.com/anil/ij/vol_0...b/page004.html That link is to a book review about the Sandia Labs investigating the explosion. Last edited by gmatov; December 7, 2005 at 05:42 PM.

December 7, 2005, 08:55 PM	#17
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Don't worry about the stability. Unlike modern chemicals, black powder is very stable and doesn't degrade with time. At the Remington factory, they told us the story of a fellow who had a flintlock with the barrel marked Remington. It had been left loaded for generations and he asked them what to do. They had him bring it in and they examined it, pronounced it safe and told him, "Shoot it." Darn if he did too. I would have pulled the ball and saved it and the powder. Gramps or Gramps' Gramp loaded it. If you don't want it, go to a muzzle loader shoot. They'll buy it off of you if the price is right. I would. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

December 2, 2005, 12:39 PM	#2
DiplomaticBlackHawk Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Posts: 87	Try posting on the reloading board but I would have to say it sounds like a risk that's not worth taking.Is it really worth saying a little money??? NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even if it is stable ( if at all) I would have to say that the burn rate is gonna be ur downfall.have fun and keep em in the 10 ring

December 2, 2005, 02:30 PM	#5
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	I have even had BP get wet and dried clumped. I broke it up as best as I could then poured it out into a tin and crushed it up. It burned just like the never wet stuff too. This again was the Dupont Black Powder. The Elephant BP I'm using today is stamped 1997 on the tins.

December 2, 2005, 03:28 PM	#6
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	You should have no problems at all. It may be a little less potent, but hey! So am I at my age

December 2, 2005, 03:33 PM	#7
tinker2 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Dakotas Posts: 144	Trust me when I say that I am no expert on black powder but some where in the back of my brain, way back in the dark part I remember reading ( in the 1960’s ) that very old black powder could go to what the article called high order. It clamed that black powder could increase in power with age. It went on to say that some artillery projectiles from the civil war had increased in power, a lot. I have black powder, like FFFF g, that is maybe that old, 40 years that is. What ever you do, be safe. Happy Holidays.

December 2, 2005, 03:48 PM	#8
tinker2 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Dakotas Posts: 144	Remington Kid Quote: “It may be a little less potent, but hey! So am I at my age” Gee, the older I get the more important I am. Least ways that what the old Dr. said to me??

December 2, 2005, 07:41 PM	#9
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Ive shot some 40-60 year old dupont and the only difference was that velocities were just a little slower than new goex- probably nothing but a difference in lots of powder rather than age. The people who know about such things tell me the black powder in 100 year old cartriges is probably still good. Any misfires will probably come from the primers.

December 3, 2005, 12:43 PM	#10
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Tink, I found that to be true up to and through my 40's. Then I went down hill from there. I still get that good old feeling every now and then but not like I used to. Now I would rather dream about black smoke and that 6 shot one hole in the target thing

December 3, 2005, 01:26 PM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	Black smoke? Are we talking about guns or locomotives here?

December 3, 2005, 04:58 PM	#12
Steve499 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Central Missouri Posts: 533	I read somewhere about the Spanish conquistadores drying their wet powder in an iron breastplate over a campfire. I know it can get wet , dry out and still be good but can you imagine sitting beside an open fire stirring black powder in a piece of armor? I guess they knew Ramon's powder was dry when Juan's blew up! Steve

December 3, 2005, 06:10 PM	#13
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	The reason BP increasing in "power" over time is simply because the BP grains are getting ground in to finer particles over time from being transported over bumpy dirt roads on a wagon, thus they burn faster when ignited. You could burry 100 lbs of BP in an airtight container, leave it for 1000 years, someone else digs it up and it would burn the same as when it was made. The ONLY danger of using old BP is making sure that the grain size is the same and has not become smaller due to being ground by being moved alot. This is hardly an issue today since our roads are smooth and not as bumpy as they used to be. Still a good idea to test it.

December 7, 2005, 10:16 AM	#14
Polydorus Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2005 Posts: 144	IIRC old powder which was stored improperly was one of the reasons for the explosion aboard the USS Iowa.

December 7, 2005, 12:26 PM	#15
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Polydorus IIRC old powder which was stored improperly was one of the reasons for the explosion aboard the USS Iowa. True, but that wasn't black powder.

December 8, 2005, 12:58 AM	#18
Sir William Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 3,261	I would use it, in the garden/yard. You would be surprised what old BP can do for roses. Good fertilizer.