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Old September 2, 2010, 10:54 AM   #1
AMSting
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Old load data vs new

I had a thread going about loading 45 acp using HP38 and Rainier 200 grain plated bullets. Hogdgon says the maximum for lead (what Rainier says to use on their web site) is 5.6 grains. This load will not cycle the slide in my FNP 45. I went up to 5.8 grains without seeing any signs of overpressure. This also did not reliably cycle the slide, but did work better.

I had done a lot of internet searching, but being new to reloading I do not have a store of older loading manuals to compare to. I did find a source last night however, for 2005 data from Rainier.

Copper plated FP 200 grain

HP38 min: 4.6/ 611/ 8800 max: 7.4/ 1014/ 20500
Win231 min: 5.0/ 687/ 9500 max: 7.2/ 993/ 20000

So what happened in the last five years? Is HP38 more "powerful" than it was? Obviously these pressures are higher than the max load provides today. Is there some reason for lowering the pressure? I can't believe pistols made five years ago could handle 25% higher pressures than those made today.

So if I would have been loading five years ago, my going to 6.0 grains would probably have been questioned as too light. Can I relax and load to make the slide cycle, or am I still pushing the limits of safety?

Last edited by AMSting; September 2, 2010 at 11:03 AM.
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Old September 2, 2010, 11:29 AM   #2
Unclenick
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HP38 and Winchester 231 are both canister grade St. Marks Powder, OBP231. It is the same powder differently branded. That is why the load ranges for them are identical on Hodgdon's site, as they now distribute both brands. You can use loads for either powder with the other.

You may be seeing lot-to-lot differences. You may be seeing liability jitters lowering the load. You may also be seeing test setup differences, especially different guns being involved. It is also not uncommon to reduce lead bullet loads well below actual pressure limits to improve accuracy for service as target shooting recommendations.

The load you cite would normally be expected to cycle a standard length 1911. I have never used the FN, so it is possible its springs are simply too stiff for reduced recoil loads. The Hornady manual gives swaged lead semi-wadcutters seated to 1.200" COL a 231 load range of 5.2 gr. to 6.5 gr. Lyman says 5.4 gr. to 6.1 gr. at 1.235" COL. Speer says 4.0 gr. to 5.0 gr. at 1.195" COL. These would apply to HP38, too. Not exactly like anyone is making a coordinated effort, here.

I have noticed before with another St. Marks powder, WCC296, sold as Winchester 296 and Hodgdon H110 for magnum pistol loads, that it is pretty easy to get a 10% difference in pressure and performance from lot to lot. I think maybe these handgun "ball" powders just don't have as tight process control as many others. I would, in your shoes, consider that I might have a slower lot and work carefully up toward the Hornady upper limit and see what happens?
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Last edited by Unclenick; September 2, 2010 at 11:34 AM.
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Old September 2, 2010, 11:37 AM   #3
demigod
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Quote:
Hogdgon says the maximum...
The max loads on several of the Hogdgon loads are really low. To me, this excessively conservative approach is dangerous in that it can get people to not take "MAX" very seriously.
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Old September 2, 2010, 02:58 PM   #4
rtpzwms
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The following load data is from Hodgdon's web site. So I think you started a little lite.

200 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.155" 5.2 794 12,700 CUP 5.9 906 16,700 CUP

200 GR. SPR JHP Winchester 231 .451" 1.155" 5.2 794 12,700 CUP 5.9 906 16,700 CUP
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Old September 3, 2010, 08:43 AM   #5
LDBennett
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For completeness here is a copy of my response from a different thread that covers this same subject:

AMSting:

The February 2010 issue of Handloader magazine (#264) has an article that is exactly in this vein (loads for 200 grain bullets in 45ACP). The author is Brian Pearce, ".45ACP 200-grain Performance Loads", page 50.

In the article he tested one swedged bullet (notoriously soft near pure lead bullet), four cast bullet loads, six jacketed bullet loads, all over some 16 different powders including W231, which is exactly Hodgdon HP38 in a differently labeled bottle. Brian claims none of the loads exceeds the industry standard for .45ACp of 21,000 psi for pressure. These are NOT +P loads!

Every bullet has a max load level for W231 of 6.5 grains with the exception of the one swedged bullet. Swedged soft lead bullets really don't like high velocities and show it by heavy leading left in the barrel.

Brian notes that max overall length is critical and gives some guidelines and specs.

The article probably is available on the Handloader magazine web page (??). But the bottom line is it is probably safe to use a max load up to 6.5 grains of W231 (HP38) behind a 200 grain cast or jacketed bullet as long as you follow Brian's guide lines for OAL.

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Old September 3, 2010, 09:12 AM   #6
AMSting
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LD: Thanks for the info. I should have a copy of that issue next week. I am really looking forward to the data.
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