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October 21, 2017, 07:16 PM | #26 | |
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Try keeping your finger off the trigger in a real world attack up close attack. Unless you have a very undetermined attacker that runs at harsh language, you will never get your finger near the trigger. Raised with guns. Been there done that for the most part. Last post in this thread. Not going to argue MT gospel. My own counsel I will keep concerning guns and use of. Jeez I sounded a bit like yoda lol. Last edited by Ghost1958; October 21, 2017 at 07:34 PM. |
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October 21, 2017, 07:23 PM | #27 | |
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However, I have enough experience training, including with Col. Cooper when I went to Gunsite for the first time, as well as in USPSA competition to be confident in my ability to keep my finger where it belongs -- off the trigger until the gun is on target and on the trigger when I need to shoot.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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October 21, 2017, 07:55 PM | #28 | |
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I'm not talking about a commercial training school. Or Gaming. I don't game. Again if I draw in response to an attack its already past the line of justification. And I intend to shoot as soon as muzzle is on com when I start the draw . Firing may well happen as soon as muzzle clears holster and rotates to bad guy. Depending on distance and a few hundred other variables. So yes my finger is on the trigger as it clears holster as, take note please, I intended to fire before I started the draw and as soon as possible. Now is where common horse sense comes in. Again depending on a bunch of variables all in my attackers control and done in the bit of time it takes me to draw I may not have to fire at which point I won't. And didn't at least three times in the past. Just because you draw intending to fire in no way means you have to fire. And should be able to not fire if a situation changes. Now I'll hand it over to the real gunslingers to carry on. Edited to add. When just target practicing in my back yard, unless I'm seriously working on accurate speed, or if I was just playing a game my finger is and would be off the trigger. Of course neither of those relates to actually using a gun in a serious attack by a dangerous person or people. |
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October 21, 2017, 08:01 PM | #29 | |
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Thankfully modern doctrine and current instructors don't follow your example, so future generations, if they actually get some decent training, will be doing things differently.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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October 22, 2017, 09:31 AM | #30 | ||
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But none of that has anything at all to do with finger placement. The issue with placing one's finger on the trigger prematurely has to dp with the very real risk of an unintentional discharge. God help the shooter when that happens. |
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October 22, 2017, 10:49 AM | #31 |
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There's an interesting study that just came out from the Force Science Institute. They didn't find anything new (Roger Enoka did the real ground breaking work a long time ago) but it's a pretty good picture of how unintended discharges happen -- when, where, and why.
There's a free, 36-page pdf available for download at http://www.forcescience.org/research.html -- follow that to the second link down. For those inclined to brush these findings aside (because we are regular people trying to defend our lives, not law enforcement), I offer the following: we are all human beings. The research rather clearly shows the predictable ways that human beings behave with and around firearms, both during highly stressful deadly force events and during the more mundane stress of everyday gunhandling. And the research also shows how that can sometimes go wrong. There are several types of stressors that can cause an unintended discharge while a person handles a firearm with the finger near or on the trigger but with no intent to fire immediately. These include:
Worth looking at that pdf, by the way. Get your learning on. pax You can observe a lot by watching. – Yogi Berra |
October 22, 2017, 11:12 AM | #32 | |
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The proper draw stroke has the gun clear the holster and rotate towards the threat BEFORE the finger moves to the trigger. If the threat is very close, then touch and press the trigger AS THE GUN BEARS ON THE THREAT. This does not slow the shot and prevents you from being a victim of your own ammo selection |
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October 22, 2017, 11:39 AM | #33 | |
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October 22, 2017, 03:18 PM | #34 |
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I can think of a couple of instances where a clenching of the non-gun hand resulted in a tightening of the trigger finger of the gun hand, with guns discharging, involving a couple well trained cops. Nobody was injured or killed, with only property damage occurring.
I wasn't present when those instances occurred, but I knew both cops. One was a senior firearms instructor, serving a search warrant in his regular assignment. His TDA (DA/SA) .45 fired when he was activating his light with the fingers of his non-gun, and the trigger finger of his other hand similarly tightened on the DA trigger. The other was a senior SWAT supervisor, serving in his special enforcement unit capacity, searching a vehicle. If I remember correctly, his 1911 fired when he was grasping and pulling on a veh door handle with his dominant hand, having apparently transferred his 1911 to his non-dominant hand, and his non-dominant hand also clenched. Long story short, if their trigger fingers hadn't been able to find the triggers and press them, the guns wouldn't have discharged. Anybody ever experienced stomping on the accelerator pedal in a car/truck when they meant to rapidly push the brake pedal? And that's when some driver is using the same foot for both accelerator and brake pedals. Imagine the potential for limb confusion occurring if someone has acquired the bad habit of using a different foot for each of those pedals. Talk about inter-limb confusion ...
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October 22, 2017, 04:39 PM | #35 |
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I agree with Ghost in that if I decide to draw my weapon, I already have a mental green light regarding the use of deadly force, otherwise I would not draw. Its True, I may not fire, ..the threat may suddenly cease being a threat or simply run away. If that happens..great, but there is simply no way I am going to have a weapon trained on a badguy with my finger off the trigger. As part of my draw stroke, I keep my finger out of the trigger guard until it is lined on target.
You guys can all it what you want but I will simply call it realistic.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; October 22, 2017 at 06:30 PM. |
October 22, 2017, 04:45 PM | #36 | |
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October 22, 2017, 06:30 PM | #37 |
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really.. my finger outside the trigger guard until the weapon is trained on a target? How is that a good way to accidentally shoot myself at the beginning of a fight? Did you read what I wrote
I am not telling others what they should or should not do, I am simply discussing how I personally feel about it.
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October 22, 2017, 07:16 PM | #38 |
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There has been alot of discussion on our actions and finger placement during an attack. When that dreaded moment happens we will resort to our traning. No time to think or rationalize. So how do you train. 99.99% of my weapon handling is not in response to SD. It is handeling EDC at home, practice at the range, local compititions, hunting. I never handle or train with my finger on the trigger. My finger never goes on the trigger untill my weapon is pointing at the target, whenever i need to move or step my finger comes off the trigger untill i am repositioned and weapon is back on target. Placing your finger high on the side does not slow you down, lack of training does. Train with a purpose.
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October 23, 2017, 12:57 AM | #39 | |
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October 24, 2017, 06:33 AM | #40 |
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Back in the bad old days we did not have holsters that covered the triggers in LE. Lots of cops shot themselves in the butt during qualification. Sometime in the mid 1980's they started teaching us to keep out booger hook off the bang switch. It is now second nature for me to index my trigger finger on the frame above the trigger guard.
I shoot competitively, just IDPA these days. While I will never shoot at the master level I have no trouble getting on the trigger when it is time.
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November 3, 2017, 07:23 PM | #41 |
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In my younger (dumber and more arrogant) years, I learned the hard way how light a double action trigger (Sig P229) can seem during a flinch. I heard noise and went to check it out. I kept the gun pointed low ready but had my finger on the trigger. I believed that my 5 years of was enough to allow me to keep my finger on the trigger and would give me a split second advantage if I needed to use the gun. I car near me backfired and I flinched, sending a round into the ground. Thank goodness for muzzle discipline. After that, always finger off the trigger till I am ready to fire.
As for where I put my trigger finger, I place mine right outside the trigger guard, in line with the muzzle. The idea behind that is you can use your finger to instinctively point at an object. I am basically using my finger as a guide for point shooting. For close distances, it works incredibly well. If I was in a defensive situation where I was justified in drawing my weapon on someone, I would prefer to be ready to pull the trigger in a split second and be able to use my finger to aim at the threat. If I was to flinch because I was being attacked, it would probably be my intention to shoot anyway.
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November 4, 2017, 12:12 AM | #42 | |
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Recognizing interlimb interaction as a possible safety issue isn't particularly new. It's been discussed at every class I've taken at Gunsite beginning with my first class there in 2002 (and see here, here, here and here). That's why we teach indexing the trigger finger high on the frame.
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November 4, 2017, 09:20 PM | #43 | |||
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The NRA expresses it thusly: Quote:
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November 6, 2017, 10:28 AM | #44 |
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Mas has a article in the latest American Handgunner about the Liang case. That was an officer who had a ND that ricocheted and killed an innnocent.
It was discussed that he might have been trained to keep his finger along side of the trigger leading to an accidental and negligent pull. Very sad case for all involved.
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November 6, 2017, 11:02 AM | #45 |
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So what about the technique of the "press out," in which the idea is you've already made the decision to shoot, so your finger is already taking out the slack as you're presenting the weapon, then breaking the trigger (in theory) just as you're fully on target with your sights.
Seems to break the rule about "finger off the trigger until the target is clearly in your sights..." |
November 6, 2017, 12:14 PM | #46 | |
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November 6, 2017, 01:12 PM | #47 | |
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The words don't matter. The thing itself does. As for the press-out, there are people I highly respect who land on both sides of that discussion. My own thought is that most of the people I have seen on the range have a hard enough time keeping their trigger fingers under their own conscious control. Until that problem has been solved and they have enough training to respect their own limitations, the press out isn't a good idea for those folks... who are the huge majority of gun owners. Crawl, walk, run. pax "There will certainly be some push back on this, but as a general rule, for LE and armed citizens — that is, for the real world — I’d suggest that we consider that training to shoot faster than we can assess what’s happening in front of our muzzles is not wise." – Ralph Mroz |
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