Ball powder in the desert

Red_Eagle · June 24, 2009, 06:40 PM

I'm being reassigned to FT Bliss in September and want to work up a load for my 22-250 for coyote. I've been using W-748 with great results and would like to try H-380. The only problem is that most of my manuals discourage the use of ball powder in these kind of tempertures (115 in summer). Would the ammo get too hot in my rifle / field pack, or are they refering to hot chambers in high heat, such as during a prarie dog shoot? If I stayed about 1 grain under max how much woud the temp change my Point of impact?

cornbush · June 24, 2009, 06:46 PM

I regularly use H380 in the heat and have had no problems. Dont know about the other but have also used W296 and W231 in the heat with no noticeable probs.

FrankenMauser · June 24, 2009, 08:54 PM

My family (Cornbush included) has been working up loads in the desert for 75 years. Ball powders do just fine.

Don't let your ammo or loaded firearms sit around in direct sunlight (same goes for any powder), and you won't have anything to worry about.

dahermit · June 24, 2009, 09:52 PM

H380 has been a heart breaker for me for over 40 years. I looks like miniture ball bearings and meters like a dream. However, I have never found a cartridge or rifle that shoots well with it. I have tried, and tried and tried.

cornbush · June 24, 2009, 10:00 PM

Myself or family members have used it in .223, .243win, .308, .270win, 30-06, 7.7 x 58 arisaka, 30-06 ackley, and .280 rem. All were acceptable accuracy at the least, some are exceptional. My rem 78 sportsman will shoot 3/4 inch 5 shot groups with H380 and 140 gr nosler ballistic tips, and one inch groups all day with H380 and 130gr hornady interlocks or 130gr nosler patitions.

Crankylove · June 24, 2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Don't let your ammo or loaded firearms sit around in direct sunlight (same goes for any powder), and you won't have anything to worry about.

What he said.

Been shooting in the desert for 25 years, and if you follow the above advice, you should have no problems.

azredhawk44 · June 25, 2009, 10:16 AM

I've been in Phoenix for 8 years and while I've been warned away from using Ball rifle powder in very cold climates (supposedly finicky ignition and lower burn temp when colder), I've never been warned away from it during hot summer shooting.

I'll admit I am running IMR4895 (stick, my second favorite powder) almost exclusively right now, but that's more because I can't FIND any AA2520 (ball, and my favorite powder) anywhere.

Paul B. · June 25, 2009, 06:33 PM

Well, I live in Tucson and use ball powders almost exclusively in my rifles. I do all my load work up during the summer when it can get as hot as 115 degrees at the range and I haven't had any problems yet. Been doin' it that way for 30 years now.
The advice to keep the ammo out of the sun is a good one to heed.
Paul B.

FrankenMauser · June 25, 2009, 11:27 PM

Quote:

I've been in Phoenix for 8 years and while I've been warned away from using Ball rifle powder in very cold climates (supposedly finicky ignition and lower burn temp when colder), I've never been warned away from it during hot summer shooting.

I have always considered the 'cold weather' factor when loading with ball powders, but looking back... really haven't ever seen anything that worried me. The worst thing I have noticed was a point of impact change.

**Unclenick** · June 26, 2009, 01:03 AM

Consider that the military loads ball ammo with ball powder, and they are very picky about wide temperature range performance. That said, ball powders are more finicky about ignition. Hatcher described working up match ammo with fine grained (I think this preceded ball powders but was as close as they got; I'll have to go back and look up his dates) and stick powder and found that even though the armory's powder metering equipment metered the fine grains with about twice the precision of the stick powder, the latter loads out-shot it. He attributed this to better ease of ignition of a longer grain stick powder.

Hatcher would have been using corrosive primers between the wars. Modern military primers address the cold temperature ignition issue by using a magnum-strength priming pellet. CCI #34 and #41 primers are the same thing, lacking only the full DOD certification testing and having nickel plated primer cups.

Going to magnum primers isn't the only approach to improving ignition. I used Accurate 2520 for one season when my M1A was still my main service rifle match gun. I was shooting 168 grain SMK's at the time and Federal 210M primers. I found the best grouping load went from 1.25 moa to 0.75 moa when I started deburring my case flashholes, which makes the ignition flame present itself more uniformly. I think I was using up a bulk purchase of Remington cases at the time, but can't recall for sure whether the experiment was with that, Lake City, or IMI Match cases? In any event, all my ball powder loads now go into cases with deburred flashholes.

I tried the same trick with stick powders, but could not see any improvement using deburred flashholes with them. They shot well either way, including groups the same size as the smaller 2520 groups. As a result, I went back to stick powder in that gun just to avoid the hassle.

Nick

Red_Eagle · June 26, 2009, 01:18 AM

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to try the 55 gr Noslers and 50 gr V-maxes over Varget. If that doesn't work, I'll try 380 or 748.

June 24, 2009, 06:40 PM	#1
Red_Eagle Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2007 Location: Western NY Posts: 598	Ball powder in the desert I'm being reassigned to FT Bliss in September and want to work up a load for my 22-250 for coyote. I've been using W-748 with great results and would like to try H-380. The only problem is that most of my manuals discourage the use of ball powder in these kind of tempertures (115 in summer). Would the ammo get too hot in my rifle / field pack, or are they refering to hot chambers in high heat, such as during a prarie dog shoot? If I stayed about 1 grain under max how much woud the temp change my Point of impact? __________________ My Calibers: 22 Hornet, 223 Rem, 22-250, 243 Win, 270 Win, 280 Remington Ackley Improved, 30-30, 308 Win, 30-06, 300 Winchester magnum, 7.62x39mm, 380 Auto, 9mm Parabellum, 38 Special, 357 magnum, 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 45 GAP, 45 Auto, 12 & 20 Guage Last edited by Red_Eagle; June 24, 2009 at 07:22 PM.

June 25, 2009, 06:33 PM	#8
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Well, I live in Tucson and use ball powders almost exclusively in my rifles. I do all my load work up during the summer when it can get as hot as 115 degrees at the range and I haven't had any problems yet. Been doin' it that way for 30 years now. The advice to keep the ammo out of the sun is a good one to heed. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

June 26, 2009, 01:03 AM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Consider that the military loads ball ammo with ball powder, and they are very picky about wide temperature range performance. That said, ball powders are more finicky about ignition. Hatcher described working up match ammo with fine grained (I think this preceded ball powders but was as close as they got; I'll have to go back and look up his dates) and stick powder and found that even though the armory's powder metering equipment metered the fine grains with about twice the precision of the stick powder, the latter loads out-shot it. He attributed this to better ease of ignition of a longer grain stick powder. Hatcher would have been using corrosive primers between the wars. Modern military primers address the cold temperature ignition issue by using a magnum-strength priming pellet. CCI #34 and #41 primers are the same thing, lacking only the full DOD certification testing and having nickel plated primer cups. Going to magnum primers isn't the only approach to improving ignition. I used Accurate 2520 for one season when my M1A was still my main service rifle match gun. I was shooting 168 grain SMK's at the time and Federal 210M primers. I found the best grouping load went from 1.25 moa to 0.75 moa when I started deburring my case flashholes, which makes the ignition flame present itself more uniformly. I think I was using up a bulk purchase of Remington cases at the time, but can't recall for sure whether the experiment was with that, Lake City, or IMI Match cases? In any event, all my ball powder loads now go into cases with deburred flashholes. I tried the same trick with stick powders, but could not see any improvement using deburred flashholes with them. They shot well either way, including groups the same size as the smaller 2520 groups. As a result, I went back to stick powder in that gun just to avoid the hassle. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 26, 2009, 01:18 AM	#11
Red_Eagle Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2007 Location: Western NY Posts: 598	Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to try the 55 gr Noslers and 50 gr V-maxes over Varget. If that doesn't work, I'll try 380 or 748. __________________ My Calibers: 22 Hornet, 223 Rem, 22-250, 243 Win, 270 Win, 280 Remington Ackley Improved, 30-30, 308 Win, 30-06, 300 Winchester magnum, 7.62x39mm, 380 Auto, 9mm Parabellum, 38 Special, 357 magnum, 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 45 GAP, 45 Auto, 12 & 20 Guage

June 24, 2009, 06:46 PM	#2
cornbush Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: The retarded place below Idaho Posts: 1,408	I regularly use H380 in the heat and have had no problems. Dont know about the other but have also used W296 and W231 in the heat with no noticeable probs.

June 24, 2009, 08:54 PM	#3
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	My family (Cornbush included) has been working up loads in the desert for 75 years. Ball powders do just fine. Don't let your ammo or loaded firearms sit around in direct sunlight (same goes for any powder), and you won't have anything to worry about.

June 24, 2009, 09:52 PM	#4
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	H380 has been a heart breaker for me for over 40 years. I looks like miniture ball bearings and meters like a dream. However, I have never found a cartridge or rifle that shoots well with it. I have tried, and tried and tried.

June 24, 2009, 10:00 PM	#5
cornbush Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: The retarded place below Idaho Posts: 1,408	Myself or family members have used it in .223, .243win, .308, .270win, 30-06, 7.7 x 58 arisaka, 30-06 ackley, and .280 rem. All were acceptable accuracy at the least, some are exceptional. My rem 78 sportsman will shoot 3/4 inch 5 shot groups with H380 and 140 gr nosler ballistic tips, and one inch groups all day with H380 and 130gr hornady interlocks or 130gr nosler patitions.

June 25, 2009, 10:16 AM	#7
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	I've been in Phoenix for 8 years and while I've been warned away from using Ball rifle powder in very cold climates (supposedly finicky ignition and lower burn temp when colder), I've never been warned away from it during hot summer shooting. I'll admit I am running IMR4895 (stick, my second favorite powder) almost exclusively right now, but that's more because I can't FIND any AA2520 (ball, and my favorite powder) anywhere.