Help reloading data, been 15 years

Skewed · June 19, 2009, 09:17 PM

Hello all,

As the title says its been 15 years since reloading and I am now getting back into it. I have the Lee Progressive press and I cant find all my documentation.
I am using 231 powder.

I have a few questions:

1) Can someone tell me what the formula is to convert the decimal to grains for the auto disks, and for general knowledge what does the decimal notations mean again on the disks.
I have written some numbers on the disks but not sure exactly how I got them now.
Disk notation / written #
.40 / 4.29
.43 / 4.??
.46 / 4.94
.49 / 5.26
.53 / 5.69

I am assuming that I calculated these somehow and these were all my possibilities, I just need to verify what these are.

2) I also cannot find any load data for the Speer .45acp 230GR TMJ. Also, if I remember correctly the length measurements should be the same for any type of bullet I would use.
3) Would it be ok to still use my old primers and powder. They have been stored safely and been in a stable environment for all those years. I would hate to throw away a pound of powder and a 1000 primers. But will for the sake of safety if need be.
4) Has anything changed over the years that I should now be aware of.

I just need to make sure I still know what I am doing after all these years, I am just anal that way.
TIA

rwilson452 · June 19, 2009, 10:19 PM

I can't remember the formula However according to My copy of Lee's "Modern Reloading" Your starting load should be 4.6 gr volume in cc is .43 the numbers on the disk are in cc.
Max load is 5.1 gr I would NOT just set it and use it without checking it with a scale. I'll admit usually you will find that the throw will be light and you will need to go up a hole or two.

If your powder smells good and doesn't look rusty it should be good. your primers should also be good.

VMD for W231 is .09310
multiply the charge in grains by the VMD and you have the cc for that charge.

Assuming your loading for a 1911 style pistol remove the barrel and use it for a gauge to get the proper COAL.

Add:
You can down load the instructions for your Autodisk at:
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data...uct/AD2302.pdf

Quote:

Help reloading data, been 15 years
Hello all,

As the title says its been 15 years since reloading and I am now getting back into it. I have the Lee Progressive press and I cant find all my documentation.
I am using 231 powder.

Quote:

I have a few questions:

1) Can someone tell me what the formula is to convert the decimal to grains for the auto disks, and for general knowledge what does the decimal notations mean again on the disks.
2) I also cannot find any load data for the Speer .45acp 230GR TMJ. Also, if I remember correctly the length measurements should be the same for any type of bullet I would use.
3) Would it be ok to still use my old primers and powder. They have been stored safely and been in a stable environment for all those years. I would hate to throw away a pound of powder and a 1000 primers. But will for the sake of safety if need be.
4) Has anything changed over the years that I should now be aware of.

TIA

Skewed · June 19, 2009, 10:35 PM

Thanks for the input. Now that you stoked a few memories, I am fairly certain that I used the .49 hole, which according to the writing it is 5.26gr and those I believe were hot. I may back it down one hole now that I am older and dont care about the loudest bang and biggest kick.

I am reloading for a Colt 1991A1 Commander.
Went and took my class for carry conceal and had not shot anything since I put this away and scored a 100. I forgot how easy and accurate this thing is, and glad to know I can still put one where I want it.

Thanks again.

**Unclenick** · June 19, 2009, 10:41 PM

I was composing while you guys were posting, so some of this is redundant:

Taking your last question first, yes, some things have changed in the last fifteen years. For one, we are on our second President since the one who was in office when you last reloaded. The most recent one has caused panic buying of loading supplies, so you don't want to waste what you have, lest they be difficult to replace. They should be fine if the storage is as you say. Powder can go bad over time do to storage problems, but it smell acrid when it does or gets some rusty reddish dust forming on it. If you don't have that and it doesn't smell any different than it used to (slightly ether scented) it is fine.

230 Grain TMJ is going to get the same load as most other 230 grain hardball in .45 ACP. About 5.3 grains of 231 mimics the old time military hardball load of 5.0 grains of Bullseye pretty closely. 4.5 grains will still shoot it fine and will be a good starting load if you are uncertain about your powder?

The length of the cartridge varies with the bullet design. A flat-nosed truncated cone design, for example, will not feed if that flat is as far forward as the tip of a round nose. For load pressures betwen loads to match, the distance the base seats into the case is more critical that the distance the nose sticks out. So measure bullet length and try not to stick it in too far. That will raise pressure a lot. Same weight and same construction (jacketed or cast or swaged, for example) bullets seated to the same depth in the case will generate about the same pressure.

The powder charge deal is that your disks are in cubic centimeters and powder is in grains. Powders have different bulk densities (grains per cubic centimeter) so you have to know the bulk density of your particular powder to convert the cc's to grains of charge. Lee has a table of powders with a factor for adjusting bulk density to grains, but it estimates density a bit high (for safety). Moreover, different lots transported with different levels of vibration may end up with somewhat different bulk densities. So, you really want to get a scale and throw charges with your measure and dump a few of them onto a scale to see what they actually weigh. While not great, there are any number of $30 digital powder scales around and despite drift and hysteresis and a touch of non-linearity, it is way better to check with one and rezero and reweigh and average the result than to do nothing. The Lee balance is also inexpensive and quite accurate if treated well.

I am away from home and can't measure some of my 231 for you, but I can tell you that QuickLOAD's (an internal ballistics program) database puts 231 at a bulk density of 10.74 grains per cc. So, if your disc is 0.4 cc, then 0.4 x 10.74 = 4.30 grains. That's pretty close to what your old calculation shows, so the bulk density number Lee has is pretty close. Just multiply your disc cc's by 10.74 to get grains of 231. Won't work with other powders except by happy coincidence.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

Nick

Skewed · June 19, 2009, 11:06 PM

Thanks unclenick. I think I got it now after these two posts. It was the bulk density that I was missing. All of that now makes perfect sense on how I got my numbers.

I found a reloading cost calculator, I cant believe I used to reload for $7.67/50. Thats crazy!!! It would have been a little more had I needed to buy my brass but being in the military, I always went to the range and they just gave me the brass. I still have two ammo boxes full of .45 brass. Where did the good old days go?

Edit: Removed a question that I answered for myself.

**Unclenick** · June 19, 2009, 11:24 PM

Its still made, but a lot of powders are in short supply over that shortage I mentioned, so it just may not be on the shelf. Winchester powders are now marketed by Hodgdon and the packaging is one of the changes that have occurred over the last 15 years. It's now in black plastic container. The label is now blue. Hodgdon maintains a separate Winchester web site for the Winchester powder brand.

And welcome back to the hobby, as well!

Nick

Blue · June 20, 2009, 12:02 AM

Assuming your loading for a 1911 style pistol remove the barrel and use it for a gauge to get the proper COAL.

Mr. Wilson,

I am not a long time in reloading but I have been told that using the barrel (45ACP) gives you a good idea if your case length is allowing for the proper shouldering up of the case in the chamber with ideal being flat across the bolt strike while giving an good idea of the crimp status also. If you had a long bullet set (Big time COAL too long) putting the case above the bolt strike it could be a long case (unlikely) or a poor bullet seating - or a need for crimp adjustment. However, in my opinion, using the the barrel as a guage will not let you know if the bullet is seated too deep in the case and the COAL way too short -- with its pressure implications in this caliber. I believe the only way to get the proper COAL - ever - is with a caliper. Lee makes a case guage that can help some with this also as a visual indicator.

**Unclenick** · June 20, 2009, 12:31 AM

Bullet seating is like skinning a cat. There is more than one way. The design of the .45 ACP is to headspace on the case mouth. Some chambers are longer, especially if you have a hood (barrel extension) welded-up lengthening it for fit in the 1911. As a result, a fixed cartridge case length can fall far enough into the longer chamber that the cartridge actually ends up stopped by and headspacing on the extractor hook. For lead bullets I prefer to headspace on the bullet. It improves accuracy noticeably, but has to be customized to your chamber length. When you headspace on the bullet, the bullet stops against the rifling throat before the case mouth touches the end of the chamber.

To use the barrel as a gauge, resize a case and drop it into the chamber and see where the casehead falls level with the barrel and mark it with a pencil or a sharpie. That is where that same case would land if you were headspacing on the casemouth. If your bullet pushes it up higher than that, you are headspacing on the bullet as in the third from left example below.

Blue · June 20, 2009, 01:40 PM

"Uncle"
I really like that illustration. Talk about better than a 1000 words!
Thanks for posting that -- very helpful.

"Skewed"

Keep reading regularly on this THL site - you will catch up quickly.

Best to you in getting "back in". Might want to get the latest and greatest powder and load info from some current books since there have been some important changes in some powders/loads in the last few years as well as some changes/M&As within the powder/bullet manufacturing world. The Powder mfrs now have very good sites wilh good information. Take your time and work within your comfort zone (published loads) before venturing out into any experimentation.

Good to have you with us.

Skewed · June 20, 2009, 04:25 PM

Thanks all for your help, much appreciated. The illustration is awesome.

Does anyone know where to find some case feeder tubes for the press? When I stored everything away, I put something on the tubes and it crushed them. I would like to find something here locally before I order replacements from Lee. I have been to hobby/craft stores, Lowes, Home Depot, fish stores, but have not found anything that would work. No gun dealers here seem to carry very much reloading supplies. Been to every place I could think of so far where these tubes would have an application for use. These are just plastic tubes, no rocket science here. Flourescent tube guards or drill bit packaging would be perfect if I could find the right size.

FM12 · June 20, 2009, 05:29 PM

Go over to www.handloads.com and join. Lots of good info there.

**Unclenick** · June 21, 2009, 01:21 AM

Skewed,

If you have a substantial sized business that deals in packaging for mailing or have a plastics supply place, you may find tubes in one of them. They are sold with little injection molded caps for packaging purposes. The plastics places, like Laird, may have the tubing as stock.

June 19, 2009, 09:17 PM	#1
Skewed Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Posts: 23	Help reloading data, been 15 years Hello all, As the title says its been 15 years since reloading and I am now getting back into it. I have the Lee Progressive press and I cant find all my documentation. I am using 231 powder. I have a few questions: 1) Can someone tell me what the formula is to convert the decimal to grains for the auto disks, and for general knowledge what does the decimal notations mean again on the disks. I have written some numbers on the disks but not sure exactly how I got them now. Disk notation / written # .40 / 4.29 .43 / 4.?? .46 / 4.94 .49 / 5.26 .53 / 5.69 I am assuming that I calculated these somehow and these were all my possibilities, I just need to verify what these are. 2) I also cannot find any load data for the Speer .45acp 230GR TMJ. Also, if I remember correctly the length measurements should be the same for any type of bullet I would use. 3) Would it be ok to still use my old primers and powder. They have been stored safely and been in a stable environment for all those years. I would hate to throw away a pound of powder and a 1000 primers. But will for the sake of safety if need be. 4) Has anything changed over the years that I should now be aware of. I just need to make sure I still know what I am doing after all these years, I am just anal that way. TIA Last edited by Skewed; June 19, 2009 at 10:07 PM.

June 19, 2009, 10:41 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I was composing while you guys were posting, so some of this is redundant: Taking your last question first, yes, some things have changed in the last fifteen years. For one, we are on our second President since the one who was in office when you last reloaded. The most recent one has caused panic buying of loading supplies, so you don't want to waste what you have, lest they be difficult to replace. They should be fine if the storage is as you say. Powder can go bad over time do to storage problems, but it smell acrid when it does or gets some rusty reddish dust forming on it. If you don't have that and it doesn't smell any different than it used to (slightly ether scented) it is fine. 230 Grain TMJ is going to get the same load as most other 230 grain hardball in .45 ACP. About 5.3 grains of 231 mimics the old time military hardball load of 5.0 grains of Bullseye pretty closely. 4.5 grains will still shoot it fine and will be a good starting load if you are uncertain about your powder? The length of the cartridge varies with the bullet design. A flat-nosed truncated cone design, for example, will not feed if that flat is as far forward as the tip of a round nose. For load pressures betwen loads to match, the distance the base seats into the case is more critical that the distance the nose sticks out. So measure bullet length and try not to stick it in too far. That will raise pressure a lot. Same weight and same construction (jacketed or cast or swaged, for example) bullets seated to the same depth in the case will generate about the same pressure. The powder charge deal is that your disks are in cubic centimeters and powder is in grains. Powders have different bulk densities (grains per cubic centimeter) so you have to know the bulk density of your particular powder to convert the cc's to grains of charge. Lee has a table of powders with a factor for adjusting bulk density to grains, but it estimates density a bit high (for safety). Moreover, different lots transported with different levels of vibration may end up with somewhat different bulk densities. So, you really want to get a scale and throw charges with your measure and dump a few of them onto a scale to see what they actually weigh. While not great, there are any number of $30 digital powder scales around and despite drift and hysteresis and a touch of non-linearity, it is way better to check with one and rezero and reweigh and average the result than to do nothing. The Lee balance is also inexpensive and quite accurate if treated well. I am away from home and can't measure some of my 231 for you, but I can tell you that QuickLOAD's (an internal ballistics program) database puts 231 at a bulk density of 10.74 grains per cc. So, if your disc is 0.4 cc, then 0.4 x 10.74 = 4.30 grains. That's pretty close to what your old calculation shows, so the bulk density number Lee has is pretty close. Just multiply your disc cc's by 10.74 to get grains of 231. Won't work with other powders except by happy coincidence. BTW, welcome to the forum! Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 19, 2009, 11:06 PM	#5
Skewed Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Posts: 23	Thanks unclenick. I think I got it now after these two posts. It was the bulk density that I was missing. All of that now makes perfect sense on how I got my numbers. I found a reloading cost calculator, I cant believe I used to reload for $7.67/50. Thats crazy!!! It would have been a little more had I needed to buy my brass but being in the military, I always went to the range and they just gave me the brass. I still have two ammo boxes full of .45 brass. Where did the good old days go? Edit: Removed a question that I answered for myself. Last edited by Skewed; June 19, 2009 at 11:22 PM.

June 19, 2009, 11:24 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Its still made, but a lot of powders are in short supply over that shortage I mentioned, so it just may not be on the shelf. Winchester powders are now marketed by Hodgdon and the packaging is one of the changes that have occurred over the last 15 years. It's now in black plastic container. The label is now blue. Hodgdon maintains a separate Winchester web site for the Winchester powder brand. And welcome back to the hobby, as well! Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 20, 2009, 12:02 AM	#7
Blue Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2009 Posts: 113	Barrel to get Assuming your loading for a 1911 style pistol remove the barrel and use it for a gauge to get the proper COAL. Mr. Wilson, I am not a long time in reloading but I have been told that using the barrel (45ACP) gives you a good idea if your case length is allowing for the proper shouldering up of the case in the chamber with ideal being flat across the bolt strike while giving an good idea of the crimp status also. If you had a long bullet set (Big time COAL too long) putting the case above the bolt strike it could be a long case (unlikely) or a poor bullet seating - or a need for crimp adjustment. However, in my opinion, using the the barrel as a guage will not let you know if the bullet is seated too deep in the case and the COAL way too short -- with its pressure implications in this caliber. I believe the only way to get the proper COAL - ever - is with a caliper. Lee makes a case guage that can help some with this also as a visual indicator.

June 19, 2009, 10:35 PM	#3
Skewed Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Posts: 23	Thanks for the input. Now that you stoked a few memories, I am fairly certain that I used the .49 hole, which according to the writing it is 5.26gr and those I believe were hot. I may back it down one hole now that I am older and dont care about the loudest bang and biggest kick. I am reloading for a Colt 1991A1 Commander. Went and took my class for carry conceal and had not shot anything since I put this away and scored a 100. I forgot how easy and accurate this thing is, and glad to know I can still put one where I want it. Thanks again.

June 20, 2009, 12:31 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Bullet seating is like skinning a cat. There is more than one way. The design of the .45 ACP is to headspace on the case mouth. Some chambers are longer, especially if you have a hood (barrel extension) welded-up lengthening it for fit in the 1911. As a result, a fixed cartridge case length can fall far enough into the longer chamber that the cartridge actually ends up stopped by and headspacing on the extractor hook. For lead bullets I prefer to headspace on the bullet. It improves accuracy noticeably, but has to be customized to your chamber length. When you headspace on the bullet, the bullet stops against the rifling throat before the case mouth touches the end of the chamber. To use the barrel as a gauge, resize a case and drop it into the chamber and see where the casehead falls level with the barrel and mark it with a pencil or a sharpie. That is where that same case would land if you were headspacing on the casemouth. If your bullet pushes it up higher than that, you are headspacing on the bullet as in the third from left example below. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 20, 2009, 01:40 PM	#9
Blue Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2009 Posts: 113	Good info "Uncle" I really like that illustration. Talk about better than a 1000 words! Thanks for posting that -- very helpful. "Skewed" Keep reading regularly on this THL site - you will catch up quickly. Best to you in getting "back in". Might want to get the latest and greatest powder and load info from some current books since there have been some important changes in some powders/loads in the last few years as well as some changes/M&As within the powder/bullet manufacturing world. The Powder mfrs now have very good sites wilh good information. Take your time and work within your comfort zone (published loads) before venturing out into any experimentation. Good to have you with us.

June 20, 2009, 04:25 PM	#10
Skewed Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Posts: 23	Thanks all for your help, much appreciated. The illustration is awesome. Does anyone know where to find some case feeder tubes for the press? When I stored everything away, I put something on the tubes and it crushed them. I would like to find something here locally before I order replacements from Lee. I have been to hobby/craft stores, Lowes, Home Depot, fish stores, but have not found anything that would work. No gun dealers here seem to carry very much reloading supplies. Been to every place I could think of so far where these tubes would have an application for use. These are just plastic tubes, no rocket science here. Flourescent tube guards or drill bit packaging would be perfect if I could find the right size.

June 20, 2009, 05:29 PM	#11
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Go over to www.handloads.com and join. Lots of good info there.

June 21, 2009, 01:21 AM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Skewed, If you have a substantial sized business that deals in packaging for mailing or have a plastics supply place, you may find tubes in one of them. They are sold with little injection molded caps for packaging purposes. The plastics places, like Laird, may have the tubing as stock. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle