Mixing brass

[RedneckFur]

I was recently given a few hundred peices of mixed headstamp brass for .38 special and .308 winchester. I'm new to reloading, and I'm learing the ropes as I go. I've probably loaded only about 1000 rounds since I've started.

The brass was given to me by a freind at my gun club that saves mixed brass as "starter kits" for new handloaders.

The .308 brass is mixed Remington, Federal, PMC, and about 100 peices of Nato 7.62 brass with various codes stamped on it.

The .38 special brass is a mix of Remington, Peters, UMC, Federal, and about 150 peices of brass with headstamps I do not recognise. It had nato-esque stamps that are just a series of numbers, but no nato cross, and what appears to be a standard primer (no crimp)

I've also got about 100 peices of nickle plated brass.

My question is, is it ok to mix headstamps when loading, or should I keep them seperate?

Also, I've heard that the Nato brass is heavier, and must be loaded with lighter charges. Is this also true? Also, with the nato brass, Can I simply de-cap the cases and clean the primer pocket with a primer pocket cleaner, or do I need a special die to remove the crimp? Some of the cases have already been deprimed.

Are there any special guidelines for using nickle plated brass?

Also, as far as brands of brass go, is there athing I should be looking for? Most shooters I know prefer to use only winchester brass. Will I get poor results by using remington or Federal brass? How about Nato spec brass?

I've got about 150 peices of winchester 308 and about 1000 winchester 38 special, that I've loaded previously.

I really apreciate any insight or help you more experienced handloaders can give me.

[Sevens]

These are mostly my opinions and not hard FACT, and you'll find that opinions run the gamut and facts are a little harder to prove in this case.

There are two times when mixing brass headstamps is not a very good idea. The first time is when you are loading near max, max, or over max loads. In this scenario the slightly different size and internal capacity of the brass can be that last determining factor between "hot" and "THAR SHE BLOWS!".

The second time where mixing brass might not be your friend is when you looking for extreme accuracy, usually in a rifle caliber, where consistency is the absolute key to building the perfect ammo. Different headstamps can have different brass thickness, internal dimensions, flash hole differences, etc etc etc and each of them takes an opposing view to consistency and consistency is your best friend when going for accuracy.

So... if we are talking moderate or light .38 Special target loads for paper punching and plinking? You should (IMO!) feel absolutely fine about mixing your headstamps at will. And for the record, there's no tangible difference in +P and non+P stamped brass, either. You likely won't ever see a minute difference in accuracy given the platform and the range you'll shoot at. The difference between bullseye targets at 15 to 25 yards and high-power match rifle shooting at 300 to 1000 yards is, well, tremendous.

I personally tend to keep all my headstamps separate, but in handgun calibers, I don't kid myself in to thinking it makes much, if any, difference. I pretty much do it because I like to try and stay at least a little organized. The pride in what I've made, etc etc.

The brass with the letters and numbers may indeed by military type production, don't worry about a NATO stamp as that cross with the circle is fairly recent and military .38 Special brass likely isn't all that recent. If what you see is TZZ or WCC or LC or RA, then you've simply got modern U.S. military brass. It's as good as anything else.

Also, some military brass in certain rifle calibers may have slightly different internal dimensions than commercial counter parts, but not in .38 Special, so don't worry about that in this caliber. I will defer to others in rifle calibers.

I also don't believe that there is any primer crimp on .38 brass regardless of head stamp. If you can resize, deprime and re-prime it without a hitch, that should be the end of your concern.

Finally, with regards to nickel and brass and the difference-- the nickel brass is brass with a nickel plating and the plating itself wears off and flakes off so it tends to last not as long before developing cracks and failures. But... it's prettier and tends to handle nicely (a little slicker) and cleans up well, so I wouldn't bother worrying about which of it you happen to have.

If you were going to make a large purchase of it and you had to choose, you can make a possibly accurate assumption that you may get more life out of the non-nickel brass, but I wouldn't say that is a guarantee.

At my bench, I keep my nickel and non-nickel separate. I tend to use the nickel when given a choice, because I figure that if I am going to wear out the brass, I may as well wear out the stuff with a shorter lifespan first and leave myself the "better" non-nickel brass. The end result seems to be that it's going to take a LOT more shooting and reloading to wear it out. A big part of the reason for this is the low to moderate pressure of the caliber and the fact that I don't use a really heavy roll crimp on most of my .38 Special.

To sum it all up, it's good that you have this level of concern in the detail of what you are getting in to. It shows that you are aware of what you are doing at the bench. But don't get caught up in giving it more of your energy than it needs and make sure that you pay as much (or more!) attention to things as triple checking your load data, being dead-sure of your components and handling your powder and charging steps with accuracy and consistency.

[margiesex]

Wow - not much I can add to the above! I'd have to agree, and also agree that a lot of the brass questions - with regard to nickel/brass and headstamp are personal likes.

For example: if you're loading nickel cases - you may want to prime them with CCI primers - they are plated, so the case and primer match (impress your friends - take pictures - enjoy the fame!) - whereas Win. primers have a brass finish and match brass cases!

I have never loaded mil. rifle brass - always stuck to commercial, but I am under the impression that Lake City brass is indeed thicker and the inside case dimensions are different - therefore you loads need to be different. There are fellas here that will fill you in on that issue.

Lastly, I agree with the above and appreciate your desire to "get it right" - so don't leave out the labeling of the finished product - primer, powder amount and man., bullet man. and weight, etc., and if you don't shoot a lot, (and some would say even if you do) date the reloads.

And welcome to one of the neatest hobbies ever - there have been many days where I would rather load than shoot!

God bless and enjoy!

Margiesex

And remember: Hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both - and soon!

[dahermit]

Is handloading a "precision" endevor? If it is, then sort brass. Do you want to work-up accurate loads? If yes, then sort brass. Do you just want to shoot "plinking" rounds? Then not necessary.
My take on handloading is that most of the time it is a precision endevor, sloppyness should not to be condoned in the practice.

I have a Browning HP in 9mm that shoots its best groups with S&B brass. I know what would happen to my groups if I mixed S&B with Win., R-P, etc., headstamps. If I wish to become a better shot, I must know that when I miss it was because of something I did wrong, not because half of my shots will not hit the target anyway.

[Bailey Boat]

The absolute pinacle of perfection in reloading is when you stumble upon a load that is highly accurate in your gun regardless of the brass brand. With THAT said, I have been reloading for roughly 40+ years and have only experienced this on a SINGLE ocassion.

I have a receipe using HP38 and 185gr JSWC in a Colt GC .45ACP that doesn't care what the brass is as long as it's there to hold the components together. It's a "mid range" load that clocks 800 fps and is deadly accurate..... May the reloading Gods bless you one day as well......

[RedneckFur]

I wasnt expecting so much information so soon! Thank you! Alot of my questions have been asnwered and I feel alot better about my mixed lot of brass.

Eventually, I'd like to find one brand of brass that my guns like best, and stick to that, but I'm new to the game, and beggars cant be too choosy when folks are giving away free componets.

I think for my first time using this new brass, I'm going to load it all with the loads that my rifle and pistol seem to like best, but keep each brand of brass in seperate cartrige boxes, so that I can compare them and see if there is a noticable difference. If there is, i'll see about using the better brass for match grade ammo, adn the worse stuff for plinking.

[Moon93]

I have a Browning HP in 9mm that shoots its best groups with S&B brass. I know what would happen to my groups if I mixed S&B with Win., R-P, etc., headstamps. If I wish to become a better shot, I must know that when I miss it was because of something I did wrong, not because half of my shots will not hit the target anyway.

This is my first post, because most of my questions so far have been answered by the great advice I've read here already.

I've read The ABC's of Reloading as few times and Lee's 2nd Ed. thanks to the excellent READ THIS FIRST guide. I plan on reading Hornadys 5th Ed. before I start reloading. But, I have a pretty good idea of what I need and why, especially since it was just rehashed recently.

Shoot mostly 9mm, so your post on it caught my eye. Right now I shoot factory loads. One of my motivations to reload is to save money and I have started to pick up brass when I go shooting. I have a very mixed bag of brass. I've already gotten rid of the Berdan stuff, but quite a few of different manufacturers.

I go shooting partially to improve my skills as well as pure enjoyment. I'm wondering if anyone has ideas about what range mixed brass becomes an issue? Are there other factors than range with mixed brass that become an issue for improvement and accuracy? For just a normal (non-competition) shooter? Or does the case manufacturer make that much of a difference, period?

As you might be able to tell, I like to know a bit before I start something, especially something as complex and potentially dangerous as this. Of course, it's even better to be aware of how much you don't know...

Thanks!

Moon

[Sevens]

I'm wondering if anyone has ideas about what range mixed brass becomes an issue? Are there other factors than range with mixed brass that become an issue for improvement and accuracy? For just a normal (non-competition) shooter? Or does the case manufacturer make that much of a difference, period?

I'd put it this way. If we are talking 9mm and you are shooting 10-25 yards (which I would think is typical range for most folks shooting middle caliber semi-auto pistols) then your accuracy is likely to be affected MORE SO by how well you can meter and measure your powder charge, by the quality of the bullet you use, by the consistency of your bullet seating and COAL, and much more so by how skilled you are with the pistol in question.

You will physically be able to FEEL the difference in different headstamps just as they go in to and work through some of the reloading dies. The biggest difference I feel in working with different brands is on the case mouth flaring stage -- you can easily feel the difference in brass thickness by the resistance in the press handle when working the brass. Sometimes you can feel it in the sizing stage, and often in the priming stage.

I'd say if you have 10 different groups of headstamps, do as RedneckFur is going to do-- give them all the SAME primer, SAME powder charge, SAME bullet and use the SAME procedure to load them, but then separate the final product out and then bench rest your handgun at 25 yards and see if you can tell a difference in how they shoot.

I think there's a very good chance that your WIN brass and your R-P brass and your CCI brass are all going to return similar results.
But you won't know until you've done it.

Rifle hand loads? Totally different ballgame.

As you might be able to tell, I like to know a bit before I start something, especially something as complex and potentially dangerous as this.

I would argue on the complexity point. If I can do it (and decently well at that!) it can't be too complex!
The good news is that there are safeguards in place to HELP us to keep this relatively safe. Published data does NOT run the ragged edge of sanity. Checks and balances in our methods serve us quite well if you respect them enough to use them. And even over-max loads should be contained in any modern platform as long as it's not nuclear.

Always learning, and getting better at it.

[Dannyl]

HI,

a week ago I put this to the test myself. (30-06 Rem 700)

I took 15 cases from 5 manufacturers, and prepared 3 batches of 5.
1.two batches had cases that all weighed within 2.5 grains apart. ( each case made by a different manufacturer: Federal,PMP,PMC,Russian and PPU)
2. on batch had cases that weighed up to 21 grains apart. ( once again, each case in a group was from a different nmanufacturer, as above)
(since all were full sized, this means that the internal dimensions would vary somewhat)
3. as control, I fired for each test group, one additional group with my favourite (Federal cases for all 5, weight variation no more than 0.3 grains)

All cases were trimmed, and all other factors identical ( primer, powder, COL, bullet)

Results showed as follows:
control groups - 16mm and 20 groups at 100 M.
first two groups (2.5 Gr variations) 25 and 30mm groups at 100M
thried group (21 grain variation) 55mm at 100M

My conclusion is that weight (hence case volume) is more important than sticking to a particular case manufacturer, therefore, if you have to ( like when you get free brass) you can mix cases, but in order to ensure consistency and accuracy it is best to weigh each case, and separate them to batches of similar weight.

Having said that, since I started weighing cases I noticed that even Federal cases can have weight variances of over 6 grains between them.

one can always argue that this was not a scientific experiment ( although my Dillon electronic scale is very accurate) but for me the results are sufficient.

Yesterday I sorted out my 30-06 brass and my biggest batch ( weight variance under 2 grains) is about 150 cases, with a small batch of very light cases and a somowhat larger batch of heavier cases.

Whe it comes to handguns, I shoot IDPA and bowling-pins, there I mix anything and everything, as long as case integrity is OK, I use it.

BTW, I hve been reloading since 91.

Rgds,
Danny

[joneb]

Lets say I'm going to reload 50 rounds I start with 50 bullets that are pretty much the same, then I use use 50 primers that are pretty much the same, and I use powder that is pretty much more the same, and now you ask me to use brass with mixed headstamps
This is something I try to avoid

[Dannyl]

Hi Jibjab,
First, I am not asking you to do anything.
Next, read again my post, particularly where it says " if you have to" ( I believe that in the US you have a terrible shortage of reloading components, so one would not want to throw away a whole batch of cases just because they are from various makes)

now, since the cases are all full lenght sized and trimmed to the same length it gives that external dimensions are identical.
If you then take it that if the external size is the same, and the weight is the same, it stands to reason that internal volume is also identical.

And last, if you are happy with groups of 1" at 100M and the same trajectory (tested up to 300M), then I suppose for most of us this is good enough.

Furthermore, I also stated that since I started weighing cases, I found out that even all my FEDERAL cases, which are supposed to be very consistent can vary from 192 Gr' to 202 Gr' and if you had to select cases only by headstamp, you would end up with cases which their internal volume varies greatly, and this will obviously affect accuracy.

Just for interest sake, I am going to weigh today 100 new (never used) WINCHESTER cases that I have, and I will post the weight variances.

I am not going to turn this into a debate or argument. All of us are entitled to our opinion and should respect each other's views. so unless one of us posts advised which is obviously dangerous, we should let it ride.

I am not telling anyone what to do, but if you want to improve your accuracy ( or satisfy your curiosity) weigh your cases, you may have a surprise.

BTW, my main interest with rifle shooting is hunting and metallic Silouhette.
I consistenly get groups of 3/4" ( so far my best is 1/2") so for me this is good enough.



BRGDS,
Danny

[Pocketfisherman]

In low pressure rounds where you are not loading near max pressure rounds, don't worry about it. Hi pressure rounds like 308, that a different story. There, case capacity can play a difference. You can make it easy and water volume CC the batch of cases by maker. Then work up a load for the smallest volume case and use that in all the brass and you'll be safe. But, it won't get you optimum accuracy. If accuracy is your goal, sort the cases by Volume and work up an accurate load for each volume class.

[joneb]

First, I am not asking you to do anything.

Sorry Danny I should have worded that different I like to keep my rifle brass as consistent as possible, including the # of times reloaded.

[darkgael]

50 primers that are pretty much the same, and I use powder that is pretty much more the same,

To that I added, in my thoughts, "and brass that is pretty much the same." As far as pistol brass is concerned - if there are differences from manufacturer to manufacturer - the differences are very small and not worth considering.
Rifle brass - that's another game entirely.
I've mix brass and have done so since I began reloading (lo - those many years ago). Typically, the vast majority of my reloading is for .45 ACP; mixing the brass has had no discernible effect on the accuracy of the gun involved. My own physical variations from day to day and match to match are way more a factor.
Pete

[DWARREN123]

I have not had any problems making straight walled pistol reloads using mixed brass. I would not load near max but should be okay for range/plinking ammo.

[Dannyl]

Hi,
As promissed, I took the new cases that I have recently purchased and weighed 10 out of each (factory sealed) bag of 50.

I took the frst 10 cases that I grabbed, to make this a fair test.

The scale is a Dillon Terminator, accurate to a 10th of a grain.

a reminder, since all cases have the same external dimensions, weight variations indicate wall-thcnkess variations, which mean internal volumes variation.
I find weighing cases quicker than water-volume measuring, and one can use the cases immediately.

Results:
bag1
186.5,187.4,186.1,185.4,185.8,185.5,186.7,185.3,185.4,185.6
Max variation, 2.1Gr,
bag2
187.7,185.7,184.9,185.5,184.8,185.3,186.8,186.8,186.8,187.1
Max variation 2.9 Gr'


In other words, although I find this totally acceptable, I have found similar consitency with once fired PPU and PMC cases when weighed in batches of the same manufacturer. ( PMP give variations of up to 21 grains ) so even using new cases, from a very reputable manufacturer does not give you 100% consistency, but whther this is good or not depends on your personal preferences.

My conclusions (for my own purposes only, do not take this as instructions to follow, but it works for me) are:
1.For general practice and hunting, I am happy to mix my old cases in batches that ( after cleaning sizing and trimming) have no more than 3Gr variation. ( when I start using my treasured new cases I will probably not like to mix them, but time will tell).
2. for shooting tight groups, I will again weigh all cases, and use cases with 0 or max 0.3 Gr variation.

WRT to handgun ammo, my 586 digests a mix batch in every cylinder-load, and happily knocks down the rams at 200M ( open sights), same goes for my Browing and series 70, which knock pins regardless of the mix and match in each mag, so this is good enough for me, as long as case integrity is 100%, I use any cases I can get.



Cheers,
Danny

[darkgael]

In the interest of science (if that's what this is), I weighed ten cases of mixed brass to see how it would compare with the above test.
I took two small lots of five from range brass (.45 ACP) that I had collected on two separate occasions. I weighed them and the results are as follows.
88.2, 83.3, 84.5, 83.6, 83.9, 86.4, 77.9, 82.5, 83.6, 86.4.
You can do the math - a 10.3 grain difference between high and low.
Interestingly, the light one was military.
Pete

[ilbob]

I no longer sort brass by any criteria. Unless you are looking at loads near the max on powder charges, or extreme precision, its just not worth the extra effort.

They get tumbled and tossed into the same container.

These days I only reload handgun calibers, but I did the same thing with rifle cases as well.

Does not make it "right".

[Sevens]

I like to keep my rifle brass as consistent as possible, including the # of times reloaded.

I think I tried, failed, and gave that up about 19 years ago.

It's work simply to keep all the headstamps separate. Trying to keep track of how many times they've been loaded and fired? Too much. Hope it works for you, I simply can't get that organized.