4 O’Clock vs Appendix pros and cons

[TunnelRat]

You could teach it with blue guns, or like we did in my case cleared firearms. The problem with blue guns is having something that fit everyone's holster. What we did was the instructor had us stand in a line and then clear our firearms. Then the instructor walked down the line, double checked the firearms were clear with magazines out and hammers down or strikers released, and then wrapped tape around the front of the slide and frame. This prevented the slide from being able to go far enough back to chamber a round. Anytime anyone left the area their pistol was rechecked. It provided what seemed like a relative amount of security.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Sharkbite]

That said, I'd like to hear from people who have ACTUALLY tried (as was the case with TUNNEL RAT's reply above) both method in some sort of real-life or classroom/training simulations. I suspect there are more CONs to both methods than listed in earlier responses.

I guess you missed the part in post 19, where i told about testing AIWB on the mat with my BJJ instructor.

[sigxder]

Long time ago I read an article on an assassin that they caught in the Philippines. He had murdered several people including some police officers. Seems his favorite way to carry was a 1911 stuffed down the front of his pants. With the thumb safety off and the grip safety tied.
He would casually walk up to his victims and pull the 1911 from the front of his waistband. Basically from an Appendix carry with no holster and kill them. The police there did a little test with him using an unloaded 1911 going against various officers armed with their guns in different positions. Even knowing what was coming all the other positions lost. So Appendix carry was and is very fast to draw from. It's biggest pro.
The con is that according to the stats when people shoot themselves on the draw the ones that die are usually Appendix carry. You hit your groin or worse your femoral artery. Or maybe both. Femoral artery you die very fast. Biggest con.
A few years ago an officer accidentally shot himself in the femoral artery. Was at the station so medical help was right there. They pumped a bunch of blood into him going to the hospital. But it went out faster than they could put it in. He died. Only you can weigh the pro's and cons of Appendix carry and decide for yourself if it's right for you.
For me the risk isn't worth the possible reward of a faster draw. In my humble experience situational awareness has been what's saved my butt a few times.It gave me time to get my weapon ready before the other guy. Their probably are instances where a few split seconds on a draw did make a difference in an incident. Most of the time I don't think being a quick draw is what will save you.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by sigxder

For me the risk isn't worth the possible reward of a faster draw.

I don’t carry appendix because it’s a faster draw, that’s just a bonus. No, I (and many others in this thread) primarily carry appendix because it’s far more concealable. And having my gun stay completely hidden matters a lot to me. I live in a city that is fairly anti-gun, and I go a lot of places where it’s perfectly legal to carry, but socially very unacceptable. The other parents (mostly moms) at the Monday afternoon story time here in our local library (located in a neighborhood full of the type of people who are usually very anti-gun) would have a cow if they knew I always carried a gun. Sitting on the floor with my gun behind the hip wearing a T-shirt, my gun would print at best and be exposed at worst. But with appendix carry, its completely hidden (heck, it’s even more concealed when I sit down or bend over).

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

I guess you missed the part in post 19, where i told about testing AIWB on the mat with my BJJ instructor.

Testing AIWB with your BJJ instructor wasn't exactly what I had in mind -- although it's certainly more meaningful than NOT having tried it out that way. You wrote:

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

...Ive pressure tested it in the gym with my BJJ coach and a red gun. AIWB was better in all aspects vs a strong side hip carry when tied in with an assailant or on the ground.

You appear to be an experienced martial artist, familiar with or skilled in Brazilian Jui Jitsu. Does your experience apply to others who don't have your martial arts skills (and conditioning), or who may already be skilled in retention techniques using the 4 o'clock method?

[USNRet93]

Went to the range yesterday..while waiting, the gent in shorts and TShirt next to me was getting checked in. At this range, they check the ammo with a magnet to make sure it isn't steel. While the gent bent over to grab his YUGE bag and get the ammo, his BIG 1911 stuck out, from under his shirt..

Nobody there would grab his gun but somebody sure could have..

why I carry AIWB..

[chaim]

How does AIWB work for big guys? I see (and make) a lot of assumptions, but rarely hear from those who have tried it. It seems to me that it would be uncomfortable (assumption), and probably a slower draw due to the gut spilling over my belt (assumption), but I also have more space under there that might help with concealment (assumption). I assume (again) that it would take a good holster for it to work, but I don't want to invest $70+ for a dedicated AIWB holster that I might only use once. I may try it with a cheaper IWB I have with no cant, but if it doesn't work the only thing it tells me definitively is that it doesn't work with a cheap holster. Have any big guys out there actually given it a try?

[TunnelRat]

I'm pretty sure some bigger guys have tried and do it.

As for the cost of a holster, for me compared to ammo and firearms it's not really an issue. That said there are vendors that have money back guarantees.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by chaim

How does AIWB work for big guys?

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I'm pretty sure some bigger guys have tried and do it.

As for the cost of a holster, for me compared to ammo and firearms it's not really an issue. That said there are vendors that have money back guarantees.

Spencer Keepers Can Appendix Carry Work for Big Dudes?

It's probably going to be multiple holsters, to find the one that works "just right".

[chaim]

Between the video above and another YouTube linked to it, it looks possible. Since I've moved to bigger guns when I carry, I like the idea of AIWB since it sounds like it is practically ideal for larger guns. I may also simply move my gun from the 3-4 o' clock position forward to something between 2 and 3

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by chaim

I may also simply move my gun from the 3-4 o' clock position forward to something between 2 and 3

At 2 o'clock, keeping the weapon covered may be more difficult, and you have some of the same risk issues of AIWB carry -- i.e., a potential risk of covering your own body during presentation -- but without the much-better concealment potential of AIWB carry.

At 3 o'clock, a holstered gun can really stick out no matter what your body type might be. Moving it a bit more to the rear makes the holstered gun less obvious -- and if you're wearing an unbuttoned outer shirt or light jacket, a flap isn't as likely to flip back and reveal the weapon.

Using a cross-draw IWB Holster at the 2:30 position may be an option that nobody has mentioned, but you still have to worry about unwanted exposure of the weapon.

[Snuffy308]

I AIWB everything. Extremely quick access and best security. You got to have the body type for it to be comfortable and usable. Some guys try to pull it off when they have a stomach bigger than their chest and they also suffer from what is politely termed "Noassatol". Prime comfort is a waist size no bigger than mid 30s. And of course trigger discipline is tantamount.

[hounddog409]

so many comments about people noticing the bump or noticing the imprint.

This is just not reality. I have found that people in general are not close to being that aware.

no one is going to notice or will be aware you are carrying.

early on in my EDC life, i was always paranoid everyone would know I was carrying.

then one afternoon at a local eatery, which was very busy at the time, i was having dinner with the wife and 2 kids. Was looking at the people near me, trying to determine who knew I was carrying.

A gentlemen walked in with a lady. open carry. belt holster on right hip. I did not see one person notice this fact. I kept watching him as he was seated, and everyone he passed. including the hostess and waitress. Not one person so much as turned their head or made any indication they noticed this guy.

Since then I have carried without a second thought about what people notice.

long story short. carry what and how is comfortable to you. nothing else maters. no one will know either way.

for me its my M&P compact in a whitehat ISWB holster behind my right hip. I dont even know its there, it never moves, and will bet my house not one person will ever notice.

[Lohman446]

You appear to be an experienced martial artist, familiar with or skilled in Brazilian Jui Jitsu. Does your experience apply to others who don't have your martial arts skills (and conditioning), or who may already be skilled in retention techniques using the 4 o'clock method?

To answer a question not asked of me but because I feel like adding what may, possibly, be useful.

Position your arm to draw a gun from a 4 o'clock position. Notice how the shoulder is at the edge of movement (or near it), the elbow is at an odd angle, and even the wrist is not exactly comfortable. If you are not certain that is true just hold it there for awhile and feel your muscles not like it. Now imagine your hand gets pinned at your gun and you are rolling around on the ground with an assailant. There is a a good chance one of those joints is going to create a problem. "The adrenaline will see me through it" is not a great strategy here. I've had elbow injuries in my non-dominant hand. Maybe the heat of the moment will help but it gets a lot of your attention very quickly.

Well the wrist may be a concern with appendix carry it is less so than it would be in 4 o'clock carry. Your arms are, generally, meant to be in front of you.

Yes I still carry 4 o'clock because I have countless hours into training to do it and don't really feel like retraining muscle memory. BUT one can see several advantages to appendix carry.

[hounddog409]

"Now imagine your hand gets pinned at your gun and you are rolling around on the ground with an assailant."

I know every situation is different, but if you allow the assailant to get that close before drawing, you have already failed.

just my opinion.

[Lohman446]

I know every situation is different, but if you allow the assailant to get that close before drawing, you have already failed.

There is truth to this statement. However the statement "if you have to draw your gun you have already failed" also holds some truth as well. The fact of the matter is any situation in which you have to draw your gun has already gone badly and can be second guessed. I would wager there are many situations where physical proximity is a major concern given the laws around brandishment. By the time you realize you should draw your gun the situation is far less than ideal.

[Sharkbite]

You appear to be an experienced martial artist, familiar with or skilled in Brazilian Jui Jitsu. Does your experience apply to others who don't have your martial arts skills (and conditioning), or who may already be skilled in retention techniques using the 4 o'clock method?

Forget any experience or training in my background. Lets just talk body mechanics and leverage. People are strongest with their arms close to 12:00 and close to the body. As we move our arms away from our core OR towards the rear of our bodies we lose strength and dexterity.

The further to the rear our arms go, the worse it gets. Thats why we (in BJJ) train “T-rex arms” in so many situations. Extended arms are targets because of the venerability. A fight that gets my opponents hand at his 4:00 is an invitation to a Kimura.

Forget specific techniques for a moment. Just think about which holster position allows you to push the gun into the holster with more strength...1:00 or 4:00?

Oh, and 1:00 allows me to use BOTH hands. So, i can lock the gun down with EITHER hand and use the other to counter. 4:00 limits those options.

[Sharkbite]

I know every situation is different, but if you allow the assailant to get that close before drawing, you have already failed.

I couldnt DISAGREE more. Nobody can walk around all day/everyday ready to draw on anybody that closes within 15’. Its just not reality.

Even in Law Enforcement, where we try to keep a reactionary gap, its not ALWAYS possible.

In addition, not everything is a gunfight. The guy that wants to punch you because you took his parking place is not “shootable” and you need other options. Sometimes the fight is just physical, but you need to be able to protect the gun you are carrying.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by hounddog409

so many comments about people noticing the bump or noticing the imprint.

This is just not reality. I have found that people in general are not close to being that aware.

no one is going to notice or will be aware you are carrying.

early on in my EDC life, i was always paranoid everyone would know I was carrying.

then one afternoon at a local eatery, which was very busy at the time, i was having dinner with the wife and 2 kids. Was looking at the people near me, trying to determine who knew I was carrying.

A gentlemen walked in with a lady. open carry. belt holster on right hip. I did not see one person notice this fact. I kept watching him as he was seated, and everyone he passed. including the hostess and waitress. Not one person so much as turned their head or made any indication they noticed this guy.

Since then I have carried without a second thought about what people notice.

Not all jurisdictions allow open carry, and even when they do, there are often laws against brandishing or carrying "to the terror of the public" prompted by the open display of weapons.

While the law may be on your side, you may still waste time and effort dealing with an LEO who has been called to check out this guy with a gun who is scaring citizens.

Originally Posted by hounddog409

I know every situation is different, but if you allow the assailant to get that close before drawing, you have already failed.

Your comments seem to suggest that saying that nobody can ever walk up on you quietly from behind, or that nobody can come at you quickly from the side (your carry side).

It's almost impossible to be 100% (or even 75%) vigilant all the time. And if you're with someone, drawing your weapon may not always be your first course of action. As others have noted, drawing a weapon may not always be appropriate or legally justified.

In some jurisdictions, for example, shining a weapon-mounted light on another person can be considered assault, and while you thought you were just evaluating a threat, an innocent passerby may feel you've stepped over the line by pointing a loaded weapon at him or her. If you've misread the situation, and there was no threat, drawing your weapon may get YOU in trouble rather than preventing it.

Open carry gives serious attackers a warning -- and the attacker(s) can choose to pick a different target or just continue their attack with a better understanding of what they're up against.

[hounddog409]

"Not all jurisdictions allow open carry, and even when they do, there are often laws against brandishing or carrying "to the terror of the public" prompted by the open display of weapons.

While the law may be on your side, you may still waste time and effort dealing with an LEO who has been called to check out this guy with a gun who is scaring citizens."

What are you talking about? Seems like you missed the point. By a mile.

The point is no one noticed this guy when open carrying. No one will know you are carrying conceled.

And no I do not live in an open carry state.

[HighValleyRanch]

hounddog409 wrote:

A gentlemen walked in with a lady. open carry. belt holster on right hip.

And no I do not live in an open carry state.

You moved or were visiting another state?
Or was the "gentleman" violating the law with open carry or perhaps a known LEO?

[rcollier]

After all this I don’t know if I am more knowledgeable or confused ������-CENSORED-♂️
Thanks to all who have posted. This has been a very informative and thought provoking thread.

For me, currently, 4’O’clock IWB is most “comfortable” but I am going to work on AIWB as there are situations where I can see this as being useful. As I stated I am very new to EDC so taking baby steps I guess. I carried all weekend on a trip we took to St Louis and found the biggest challenge was packing the right clothing. I was somewhat paranoid that people would notice me printing but in reality I did not see anyone pay any attention to me who looked the least bit interested in what I was doing.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by hounddog409

What are you talking about? Seems like you missed the point. By a mile.

The point is no one noticed this guy when open carrying. No one will know you are carrying conceled.

And no I do not live in an open carry state.

People DO notice.That would NOT happen in most places where open-carry is not allowed.

People notice, and are uncomfortable. You just think they didn't noitce. In fact, they often ask the service staff or management of the restaurant to call the police in OPEN CARRY states.

I had one friend who was carrying concealed be asked to leave the restaurant when his weapon was noticed by the carry staff in an open carry state. Because he was an auxiliary police officer but in civilian clothes, and had his police ID with him, he was allowed to stay.

Your actions may make YOU feel better, but it won't make those around you feel better. More than you realize may have noticed. If you keep it up, you may lose the right to carry openly or carry at all. Sheriffs have a lot of power to deal with such situations, and you may not like the outcome.

[hounddog409]

You moved or were visiting another state?
Or was the "gentleman" violating the law with open carry or perhaps a known LEO?

Could have been a known LEO for all I know. Which would only explain the wait staff....not all the patrons.

[Snuffy308]

Next time you notice some V.I.P. either private or gov't who obviously has armed bodyguards watch where their hands are located. Most have their hands folded in front of them in the "figleaf" position. Even the females and especially those closest to the protectee. There's a reason for this.