|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
October 6, 2017, 04:42 PM | #76 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,931
|
Quote:
That's notwithstanding the questionable "ballistic advantage" of the faster moving .40 round (10mm Auto, or 10mm Norma, however far back your appreciation for it goes) ) as a service cartridge. After all, even the original proponent of the 10mm Auto, Jeff Cooper, didn't initially envision the hotter iteration produced by Norma. Cooper envisioned the 10mm Auto as being pretty much ideal using a 200gr/1000fps cartridge. Not every "average" handgun shooter (also meaning not every "average" cop) could probably competently and accurately utilize a 175gr/1300 or 200gr/1200 "service load" in a 10mm, just like not everyone back in the revolver days could shoot a .357 Magnum as well, meaning as controllably or as accurately, as a .38 Spl/.38Spl +P. I get your meaning, though. I was always a proponent of wanting to require everyone to be able to handle .357 MAG, but that just wasn't the case, and eventually the use of .38 Spl +P was "standard" for quals, and the guys carrying .44 MAG on-duty were allowed to use .44 Spl for quals. If wishes were horses ...
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer |
|
October 6, 2017, 05:16 PM | #77 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 17, 2014
Posts: 2,444
|
This conversation is somewhat confusing to me.
I have 1911's in 9mm, 40, and 45acp. They all feel about the same to me, recoil-wise. Maybe it's just because LE agencies issue lighter-weight handguns? |
October 6, 2017, 05:25 PM | #78 | |
Junior member
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,374
|
Quote:
|
|
October 7, 2017, 08:15 AM | #79 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,624
|
IMHO, here some of the reasons for avoiding a .45 in LEO department circles:
Effectiveness of smaller rounds, (9mm or .40 S&W), has been enhanced by the introduction of better hollow point bullets. While we can argue the validity of the testing and results, most of the data that I've seen leans in this direction, and that's what department decision makers are using for input. Heavier recoil in the .45 than a 9mm or .40: this makes training to proficiency tougher. Limited capacity in guns that have a grip size usable by smaller framed LEO's Reduced magazine capacity... Increased cost of ammunition, both in service as well as training varieties. Public acceptance....45's may raise the perception in the public mind that our LEO's are carrying "cannons". The shift to .40 caliber guns decades ago, answered some of the objections, albeit marginally. Recoil, while measurably less than a .45, is still a factor, especially in the 180 gr. loads, while muzzle blast, at least in examples I've shot, is definitely greater. Capacity is greater, but not up to the levels of a 9mm, but this too, comes at a cost, as the grip size is considerably bigger than a single stack .45. For example, my Sig P226 and M11A1 are every bit as big as any .45 I've shot with a double stack mag well. Ammunition cost is lower than a .45, however, about mid-way between 9mm and .45 here abouts. It does seem that public acceptance of .40's in the hands of police, has not resulted in any measurable backlash, at least in the law abiding community. HTH's Rod
__________________
Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. |
October 8, 2017, 10:14 PM | #80 |
Junior member
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
|
Where has anyone come up with the idea that cops don't like the .45 ACP?
That last duty gun I've carried was a .45 ACP. The 9MM is good, .40 S&W is better, the .45 ACP is king. |
October 8, 2017, 10:18 PM | #81 |
Junior member
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
|
Hi rodfac,
For a brief period of time, the 10MM was all the rage. However, when science entered the duty gun equation, it was found to be true that .40 caliber handguns were most efficacious when firing 180 grain bullets at ~1000 FPS. Hence, double stack mags of very efficacious .40 S&W ammo supplanted single stack 10MM duty weapons. Gun design has a huge impact on felt recoil. |
October 8, 2017, 10:22 PM | #82 |
Junior member
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
|
One more point: a steel 1911-A1 has less felt recoil than lightweight 9MM handguns. It is a heavier gun, but its recoil is extremely manageable. A woman whom I taught to shoot preferred a 1911-A1 .45 ACP to any other model including an "L" Frame.
My Springfield Armory Loaded Model .45 ACP has extremely manageable recoil. I can easily keep its business end pointed at silhouette targets. |
October 8, 2017, 11:19 PM | #83 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,212
|
Quote:
__________________
Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
|
October 9, 2017, 01:42 AM | #84 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 1, 2013
Location: Now relocated to Texas
Posts: 2,943
|
Agtman, I take offense to your” less capable” comment about police officers. The people I worked with for so many years were quite competent in their duties, some had failings in areas but don’t we all? I certainly would not pick Law Enforcement as a career today in this tumultuous country of 2017 where the profession is looked at more as targets than protectors.
Although some had difficulty with size, weight and recoil of certain firearms all made acceptable performance with their weapon when tested ( a few had to be prodded to get to the range but were trained until that “acceptable performance” was gained. |
October 9, 2017, 08:52 AM | #85 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,624
|
Good points SA1911 and I totally agree that design is a major factor in overcoming 'felt' recoil...case in point...my friend's Glock .45 with it's much lower bore axis feels totally different than my Sig P220, more of a push to the rear than the up-twist felt when firing the 220. To me, my 1911's are mid-point in felt recoil, due, in part to their bore axis height, and of course, weight.
The Glock mentioned above was a complete surprise to me...as I had the notion that a very light gun would not handle the recoil well...I was wrong! Too, grip angle, circumference, and the 'reach' length to the trigger all play a part. Size and 'meatyness' of the firing hand, as well as one's strength of grip are significant players as well. Good comments Sir, and thanks for your service in the LEO community. Rod
__________________
Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. |
October 9, 2017, 10:15 AM | #86 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
If so, can you offer any facts in support to that contention? |
|
October 9, 2017, 10:30 AM | #87 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,390
|
OK, gentlemen.
Enough discussion about hiring qualifications and the capabilities (or lack there of) of individuals. This board is for the discussion of firearms and cartridges. It's not about Human Resources activities or your personal views on hiring practices.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
October 9, 2017, 10:30 AM | #88 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
At least until the next shooting where the 9mm is blamed for the failure of tactics and ability.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
October 9, 2017, 11:29 AM | #89 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Four pages based on an unvalidated, and untrue, assumption. Wow!
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
|
|