.32 ACP FMJ vs. 40 S&W hollow point

[bricz75]

Obviously, a caliber war is not going to exist between the .32 ACP, aka 7.65 Browning firing a FMJ round and the .40 S&W firing a hollow point that penetrates sufficiently.

I noticed European loads such as Sellier and Bellot, Fiocchi, and Geco are loaded hotter than say Remington. Sellier and Bellot claim 175 ft/lbs of energy. The other two claim 160 ft/lbs of energy. I think those figures are out of a 4" barrel. I saw a video of S&B .32 ammo through a 2.7" barrel Keltec penetrate almost 14" of ballstic gel. Velocity was 875 fps. I guess the same ammo through a 3.5" or 4" barrel would penetrate 2 or 3 inches further. Less assume the longer barrel for the question.

Needless to say, there are .40 S&W hollow point rounds that will penetrate 16" or 17" in gel and expand.

All that said, just how much better is the .40 S&W hollow point at ending a threat against a bad guy? Assume all other things are equal like ability to place a good shot. Again, less assume the .32 pistol being used has a 3.5" or 4" barrel and is firing European spec ammo as mentioned above.

[stephen426]

Not sure why you are comparing apples to orangutans here. LOL The .32 ACP in FMJ is not going to expand is not going to transfer nearly as much energy into the target. The .40 S&W hollow point could expand considerably http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...ic-tests/#40SW . The energy transfer will be much greater with the hollow point as will the tissue displacement. If you can carry the .40 S&W and shoot it well, go with as much gun as you can shoot well.

[Bill DeShivs]

The only 100% sure "stop" is a central nervous system shot.
It wouldn't matter if that CNS shot was with a .22 short, a .32 acp, or a 44 magnum.
Any other shot, it probably wouldn't matter either.
If I knew I had to shoot someone, I would prefer the .40- but for every day use, the .32 acp is fine with me.

[tipoc]

Not sure why you are comparing apples to orangutans here. LOL The .32 ACP in FMJ is not going to expand is not going to transfer nearly as much energy into the target. The .40 S&W hollow point could expand considerably http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...ic-tests/#40SW . The energy transfer will be much greater with the hollow point as will the tissue displacement. If you can carry the .40 S&W and shoot it well, go with as much gun as you can shoot well.

To put it another way, the 40 S&W hits harder and makes a bigger hole than the 32 acp. Those things matter.

Both rounds may penetrate to a similar depth in plain 10% ballistic gel. But they do not penetrate the same when passing through a barrier before striking the gel. Similarly they do not act the same when hitting bone, or several inches of muscle.

It's why, when possible always go with a more powerful round if you can shoot it well, in a gun that you can shoot well, that you've selected for the job at hand.

It's why most folks will recommend a 9mm handgun over a .380 if you have an option.

tipoc

[Onward Allusion]

The S&B #'s are out of a 4 inch barrel. Also, trying to compare 32ACP to 40S&W is not doable under any circumstances.

[44 AMP]

Sellier and Bellot claim 175 ft/lbs of energy. The other two claim 160 ft/lbs of energy

15 ft/lbs of energy. Seriously? Do you think that is a significant amount??

it's LESS than the amount of energy developed by dropping 2 gallons of water from a height of one foot. (by about 10%!)

seems to me comparing .32ACP and .40 S&W is comparing apples to orangutans.....

[mavracer]

seems to me comparing .32ACP and .40 S&W is comparing apples to orangutans.....

It would be the logical conclusion to the current thinking that the 9mm is bestist crowd. That the 15-20% larger hole left by a 40 or 45 is no advantage any more.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

The only 100% sure "stop" is a central nervous system shot.
It wouldn't matter if that CNS shot was with a .22 short, a .32 acp, or a 44 magnum.
Any other shot, it probably wouldn't matter either.
If I knew I had to shoot someone, I would prefer the .40- but for every day use, the .32 acp is fine with me.

While I agree that a CNS may be the only 100% sure stop, keep in mind that exsanguination (bleeding out) is much more likely with the .40 S&W since the larger frontal area (plus whatever nasty hollow point design) will disrupt much more bodily tissue. There is also more chance of hitting blood vessels with the larger, expanding caliber compared to the round nosed full metal jacket. I've never been shot (and I hope to keep it that way). but I imagine getting shot by a .40 S&W hollow point hurts a lot more than a .32 acp.

I'm sure some may argue that better a .32 acp than just using your hands, but if you can carry either, I'd go with the more effective cartridge.

[Deaf Smith]

Since 'experts' say there is no such thing as 'stopping power' then the .32 ACP FMJ loads is fully equal to the .40 S&W JHP loads.

Are you a science denier? No? Then admit they are equal.

Deaf

[DaleA]

Are you a science denier? No? Then admit they are equal.

I like this forum.

[cslinger]

But what about a .32 fired from necked down .338 case.

[Bill DeShivs]

They are equal with a central nervous system shot.
Dead is dead.

[Bill DeShivs]

And waiting for someone to bleed out while they are shooting at you is a sure way to get killed! It takes a lot of time for bleed out.

[Deaf Smith]

But what about a .32 fired from necked down .338 case.:-)

I think that's called a .300 Winchester Magnum. Most .32 autos are .312 and the .300 WM is .308. Close enough!

Deaf

[Cosmodragoon]

Science is one thing but seeing is another. Ballistics gel gives us a good way to see and compare behavior in a standard medium. The problem is that bad guys and dangerous animals aren't made of ballistics gel and neither are most of the other things in the world that might come between you. In the name of science, I recommend that you get together an assortment of water-filled jugs, bottles, and cans; expired food items and overripe produce; and various junk for simulated barriers. Take the appropriate safety measures and be sure to clean up when you're done.

[tipoc]

They are equal with a central nervous system shot.

If I stab a fella in the spine with a stiletto and another in the spine with a broadsword, it's all the same since both opponents will collapse. To be fair let's replace broadsword with a Ka-Bar.

Left out of that picture is the messy fighting part. It's when we include that that we see a difference between the .32. 9mm and 40 S&W.

We could play this game for awhile but we all know, you carry the tool for the job.

The stiletto and the 22 l.r., .32 or .380 have their place. Each is deadly. Punching someone in the spleen, or heart with a knitting needle, or screwdriver is deadly. It's not likely you'd knowingly go into a fight with a screwdriver if better options are available. Same for the .22 and 32.

tipoc

[44 AMP]

It takes a lot of time for bleed out.

That would depend on how many, and how big the holes are. As well as where...



I'd put a LOT of faith into a single COM hit, point blank with a 90mm or larger flechette round as being a dependable stopper, but I just can't CARRY the darn thing around all the time... HE is just too unreliable, its a fuze issue...

Energy numbers are just numbers. MASS matters more. Penetration to a vital point matters MOST.

It's not likely you'd knowingly go into a fight with a screwdriver if better options are available.

Must not have been much better available to the punks who attacked Bernard Goetz....

There are some seriously stupid people out there. Once in a while the universe treats them the way they deserve. Sad for us, not nearly often enough...

[Bill DeShivs]

10-15 seconds would be very quick for bleed-out. Usually much longer.

10-15 seconds is a very long time when someone is shooting at you.

[tipoc]

So is 2 seconds, a long time.

But that's what's likely to happen. That they don't drop. You also can't count on them running away. It's also the case that in a fight odd things happen. You cannot expect a CNS hit every time, or even the one time you need it.

A 32acp is not the same as a 45 Colt, nor even a .380. One does more damage. Use the one that does more damage when you can. It increases the odds in your favor.

tipoc

[SauerGrapes]

How many people carry a 4" barrel 32 acp?

[Bill DeShivs]

.32 acp is pretty darned close to a .380!

[kozak6]

There's not much of a selection of .32 pistols.

Mostly, it's going to be single stack European antiques, zinc junkers, and the Keltec P32. I think there might be a single Beretta double stack.

There's a wider selection of .40 pistols, although none of them are going to approach the Keltec in size or weight. However, there are more modern options such as the Kahr CM40 or Glock 27 that some might find compelling.

[Bill DeShivs]

There is the recently discontinued Beretta TomCat, the NAA Guardian .32, the Seecamp .32 in addition to the Keltec.

[T. O'Heir]

There is no .32 ACP FMJ vs. 40 S&W hollow point. Apples to orangutans is a pretty good analogy. What either cartridge does to ballistic gel is irrelevant too. It's shot placement that matters.
Sellier and Bellot, Fiocchi, and Geco are loaded to CIP specs. Not SAAMI.
"...is 2 seconds, a long time..." Yep. Sometimes it's enough. And sometimes it isn't. In Duello fire you get 5 seconds to raise your pistol, aim and fire one shot. 2 seconds matters. Believe the record for Pin shooting is a bit less than 2 seconds.
"...with a broad sword..." Broad swords are not stabbing tools.

[smee78]

I use my NAA 32acp for work and have from time to time carried my Beretta 81 in 32acp and its barrel is almost 4". Now would I compare it to a 40cal......no, to me its apples to mellons. I do feel as though 12+1 rounds of 32acp is not a bad carry setup.