Received my Pietta 1860 Army!!! Take a look! Pics included. - Page 3

BlackPowderBen · December 26, 2016, 07:50 PM

Jack, do you have the gun supported on something with a opening around the wedge slot when you hit it?

JACKlangrishe · December 26, 2016, 07:55 PM

Yes.. first I used some stacked wooden spoons wrapped in microfiber, then I switched to the wood handle of the rubber mallet wrapped in microfiber. I briefly gave it a few whacks with it propped on a Metal handle of another hammer, also wrapped in microfiber, until I realized and switched it with the wood handle mallet. I'm assuming, even if wrapped in cloth, its best not to have it propped up on a metal surface.

each time I keep the prop up piece close to the wedge, but not too close that the wedge isnt free to fall.

foolzrushn · December 26, 2016, 08:41 PM

Jack, if by clip you are talking about the wedge flat spring....I think that I would try to use a brass punch on the actual wedge instead of hitting the spring. You might bend the spring. You will need a punch small enough to stay inside the wedge slot and on the wedge. I have had this same thing happen.

Mine was so tight that it slightly mushroomed the end of the brass punch. A close picture of the right side would be good. Be sure that the tip of the flat wedge spring, is not holding the wedge in place (in addition to the friction of the wedge sides). I needed to put a very small screwdriver blade under the bent tip to release the spring from catching on the righ outside of the barrel. With that in place, I then tapped out the wedge with the punch and a hammer.

If the wedge proper is flush, then you must use a small punch or you will just be hitting the barrel.

foolzrushn · December 26, 2016, 08:50 PM

I also used a meduim sized plastic faced hammer on first one side, then the other, of the extended left end of the wedge. I really had to smack it! Don't remember which finally got the wedge loose.

JACKlangrishe · December 26, 2016, 09:20 PM

here's my predicament-

this convinces me it isn't caught:

this angle gives me doubts but there's a lot of lube and tiny wood debris packed in there as well, so it kind of gives that clip an extra lip:

this makes me think that extra lip look like a layer of lube, its just as confusing to look at in person:

here's how much is peeking out:

now if that ^ is all that's needed to peek out for the clip to snag, then wouldn't everyone be needed to hold the clip down when they smack it with a plastic hammer? I've seem people just whack it when even more than that is sticking out.

That said.. there is certainly something sticking out.. maybe half a millimeter or so. I really wanted to get lucky and have the hammer push it that far to make it truly flush, but it never even budged. If you look at my first post in this thread, it's in the exact same position.

Hoppy · December 26, 2016, 09:38 PM

Jack, I believe mine was like yours. I could move the spring up and down though with the end of a clothespin. When I let go, it sprang back up and looked like it was catching on the side of the barrel.

I forgot to mention earlier that I also took a spent piece of 5.56 brass and folded it over a couple of times to use as a punch after trying the clothespins. With the revolver supported, I ended up just flattening the brass more against the revolver, so I stopped doing that. I managed to wedge a tiny piece of wood between the spring and barrel and then it tapped out with the steel punch easy enough, I used leather to get it started. It was the 3rd try that got it, meaning I started with clothespins as someone mentioned, and that didn't work, then I gave up for an hour or so. Then I tried the brass, that didn't work, so I left again for another hour, then finally got lucky.

Sorry, you're having such trouble. Glad there are folks here to help us with these tasks.

JACKlangrishe · December 26, 2016, 09:41 PM

Tell me about it!!

I keep thinking about that, what you mentioned about the wood suppressing the spring.. but wouldn't everyone's be catching at this point? This isn't far into the gun, barley peeking out the other side, and I see lots of people just tap it out and not shim anything down.. I thought it had to be significantly further into the gun for the clip to catch the other side.

I felt a tiny bit of give on the clip at first but not anymore. When I say tiny, I mean almost non-existent. I even attempted to wedge some wood in but no luck.

foolzrushn · December 26, 2016, 10:09 PM

Jack- It looks to me like the wedge spring in not quite far enough through the barrel to lock on the outside (right side) of the barrel. It probably would need to be in another 1/16" to snap up and lock.

The idea is that the spring can spring up and lock, but still can move down and unlock when the wedge is pushed out. With that in mind, see if you can push down on the spring. Does it move down to the bottom of the slot in the wedge, or is there wood and junk preventing that movement? If there is, take a needle or pin and dig out the junk until you can be sure that the spring moves down when pushed. If it can move then it will not add to the problem.

I don't think that you should hit the spring end with the force that will be required to move the wedge. I would suggest strongly that you find something with a small enough diameter(or square shape etc.) to fit inside the wedge slot, beside the spring tip. Then after placing the gun on a non-slip soft surface, place the punch on the end of the wedge beside the spring end and smack it hard. Move to the other side of the spring on the same end of the wedge and repeat. Be sure you have allowed room for the wedge to back out. Sounds like you have already thought of that.

I had to hit mine with a force that would have dented a piece of 2x4 with a steel hammer. I had to hit it that hard repeatedly. Finally the wedge moved. That kind of force would bend the wedge spring or maybe break it.

Hoppy · December 26, 2016, 10:13 PM

If there was give before and isn't any longer, that seems to me that you got the wedge moved just a little bit in the direction you want.

I just took my wedge out and looked at it. The end of the spring is actually rounded, not a right angle as I imagined if it was to capture the side of the barrel. So, in theory, striking it properly will drive the spring down at the same time as driving the wedge out.

My spring seems to have detents as it clicks twice when I compress it (out of the gun). No sure why that is.

foolzrushn · December 26, 2016, 10:15 PM

I think the clicking is just the spring flexing like a Halloween clicker. I'm old enough to remember the clickers. Guess they still use them to train dogs.

JACKlangrishe · December 26, 2016, 10:17 PM

im tempted to do that with the nail punches and a few layers of cloth in between.. although I can see from the photos there was some marring on the wedge.. just dents though, and the finish wasnt removed. still.. I'll probably need to just wait and get the brass drift punch from track

I'll check around at the local ranges for spent brass. They're not that close, and the closest to me has some unsavory staff. I'll need a vise for that too right?

Hoppy · December 26, 2016, 10:19 PM

"I don't think that you should hit the spring end with the force that will be required to move the wedge. I would suggest strongly that you find something with a small enough diameter(or square shape etc.) to fit inside the wedge slot, beside the spring tip. Then after placing the gun on a non-slip soft surface, place the punch on the end of the wedge beside the spring end and smack it hard. Move to the other side of the spring on the same end of the wedge and repeat. Be sure you have allowed room for the wedge to back out. Sounds like you have already thought of that." foolzrushn

This is what worked for me

JACKlangrishe · December 26, 2016, 10:22 PM

ugh im such an idiot.. i just tried the wrapped nail punch again on one side and marred it

JACKlangrishe · December 26, 2016, 10:25 PM

foolzrushn · December 26, 2016, 10:26 PM

I doubt that spent brass will be strong enough. I would suggest again that you go talk to a welder or welder supply if you can't find brass punches and don't want to wait. They will probably sell you a single brass brazing rod which should work. Be sure that the rod will fit in the slot, or you will need to file it down smaller.

You could also try to find a thick nylon brush handle and cut that to make a punch for now. These are options to get you going now....the punch set is the right way and you will use them again and again.

Hoppy · December 26, 2016, 10:35 PM

Foolzrushn - I see what you're saying about the clickers. Makes sense and that's exactly how it acts.

Jack - What did you mar? the barrel or the end of the wedge? Just saw your picture. It looks like you're using something with a sharp point. My nail set had a large head that just fit in the wedge slot. The spent brass I tried wasn't up to the task.

If you have a local hardware store, they should have brass rod in different diameters. you can get a 12" long piece of either 1/8" or 3/32". I would cut a 3 inch piece of that and try it.

JACKlangrishe · December 26, 2016, 10:49 PM

I'll keep an eye out for those local solutions foolz.. I'll make some calls tomorrow and see if I get lucky while I wait for the track punch. I figured theres no downside in ordering the piece from track as I'll get a lot of uses out of it I hope.

Hoppy- the round chip on the left side of the clip is what I did.. yes the punches weren't wedge shaped but a blunt tipped. I was going to try the left side, right side tapping and gave it too much of a whack. The cloth was no match. I'm trying not to be too pissed at myself.. I could have just as easily marred the barrel assembly. I knew it was going to happen too.

Hoppy · December 26, 2016, 11:00 PM

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Mine certainly wasn't perfect out of the box. Great for a $200 gun, but I wouldn't sweat it. That's just a small mark on the wedge.

45 Dragoon · December 26, 2016, 11:53 PM

Well, as silly as this sounds, try whacking it in a little deeper. The wedges usually aren't very hard and it may size it down ever so slightly. With something of the wedge sticking out on the right side of the barrel, you'll have "wedge" to hit instead of the spring.

I usually just hold them in my hand and whack the fool out of them with my plastic faced hammer. Works every time (course, I'm probably meaner than some of y'all !!! Lol!!)

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Hawg · December 27, 2016, 12:33 AM

Get a piece of hardwood and put it on the end of the wedge and smack the snot out of it. If it's not moving you're not hitting it hard enough. Baby taps are not going to work.

foolzrushn · December 27, 2016, 01:26 AM

I agree with Hawg and Dragoon that you will need to really smack it. But do remove any debris (like wood chips) that's between the spring and the wedge first!

If you don't, you may find that the spring can't compress in the wedge slot enough to pass back through the arbor slot. The spring would then be wedged against the right side of the arbor internally, stopping movement of the wedge.

My understanding is that the wedge spring's function, is just to take up vertical slack and keep the wedge from falling out, before the wedge is tapped snugly into place.

From the photo it seems there is some gunk in the forward end of the wedge window. If it's metal, that may have kept the wedge from going in deeper, causing this stuck wedge. I found attached metal flakes in my barrel and arbor slots.

44 Dave · December 27, 2016, 09:20 AM

OK! those Pietta "not too short arbors"
Listen to 45 Dragoon and Hawg, and get a little lube in it and "smack it" in both directions the metal is soft enough there is a little stretch when you knock it in a little more.

JACKlangrishe · December 27, 2016, 11:29 AM

Are you sure the wedge is soft enough not to warp the slot if I bang it in further?

Here's an image from the Pettifogger docs that show the wedge warping the slot of the barrel assembly even though none of the wedge is sticking out of the right side-

I ordered the brass drift punch from Track. Even if I somehow get it out sooner, it'll be good to have around.

I'll check around for hardwood so maybe I can carve out a punch like shape to hammer on.

JACKlangrishe · December 27, 2016, 11:37 AM

Also, I'm way beyond baby taps.. I was hitting this thing like Andy Dufresne in the escape scene of Shawshank Redemption

drobs · December 27, 2016, 04:02 PM

Here's what the brass looks like after I got done hammering it. Note the round / half moon shape of the face.:

1st time I hammered my wedge out, I brought out the 4LB Sledge.
Example:
http://www.harborfreight.com/4-lb-hi...mer-69240.html

That knocked it out of there...

Couldn't find my plastic mallet, which I use now w/ the 223 brass, at the time.
You might go with this...
http://www.harborfreight.com/4-lb-ne...mer-69004.html

December 26, 2016, 07:50 PM	#51
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	Jack, do you have the gun supported on something with a opening around the wedge slot when you hit it? __________________ "If you have to shoot, shoot! Dont talk"

December 26, 2016, 07:55 PM	#52
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114	Yes.. first I used some stacked wooden spoons wrapped in microfiber, then I switched to the wood handle of the rubber mallet wrapped in microfiber. I briefly gave it a few whacks with it propped on a Metal handle of another hammer, also wrapped in microfiber, until I realized and switched it with the wood handle mallet. I'm assuming, even if wrapped in cloth, its best not to have it propped up on a metal surface. each time I keep the prop up piece close to the wedge, but not too close that the wedge isnt free to fall. Last edited by JACKlangrishe; December 26, 2016 at 08:02 PM.

December 26, 2016, 08:41 PM	#53
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	Jack, if by clip you are talking about the wedge flat spring....I think that I would try to use a brass punch on the actual wedge instead of hitting the spring. You might bend the spring. You will need a punch small enough to stay inside the wedge slot and on the wedge. I have had this same thing happen. Mine was so tight that it slightly mushroomed the end of the brass punch. A close picture of the right side would be good. Be sure that the tip of the flat wedge spring, is not holding the wedge in place (in addition to the friction of the wedge sides). I needed to put a very small screwdriver blade under the bent tip to release the spring from catching on the righ outside of the barrel. With that in place, I then tapped out the wedge with the punch and a hammer. If the wedge proper is flush, then you must use a small punch or you will just be hitting the barrel. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

December 26, 2016, 08:50 PM	#54
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	I also used a meduim sized plastic faced hammer on first one side, then the other, of the extended left end of the wedge. I really had to smack it! Don't remember which finally got the wedge loose. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

December 26, 2016, 10:09 PM	#58
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	Jack- It looks to me like the wedge spring in not quite far enough through the barrel to lock on the outside (right side) of the barrel. It probably would need to be in another 1/16" to snap up and lock. The idea is that the spring can spring up and lock, but still can move down and unlock when the wedge is pushed out. With that in mind, see if you can push down on the spring. Does it move down to the bottom of the slot in the wedge, or is there wood and junk preventing that movement? If there is, take a needle or pin and dig out the junk until you can be sure that the spring moves down when pushed. If it can move then it will not add to the problem. I don't think that you should hit the spring end with the force that will be required to move the wedge. I would suggest strongly that you find something with a small enough diameter(or square shape etc.) to fit inside the wedge slot, beside the spring tip. Then after placing the gun on a non-slip soft surface, place the punch on the end of the wedge beside the spring end and smack it hard. Move to the other side of the spring on the same end of the wedge and repeat. Be sure you have allowed room for the wedge to back out. Sounds like you have already thought of that. I had to hit mine with a force that would have dented a piece of 2x4 with a steel hammer. I had to hit it that hard repeatedly. Finally the wedge moved. That kind of force would bend the wedge spring or maybe break it. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

December 26, 2016, 09:20 PM	#55
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114	here's my predicament- this convinces me it isn't caught: this angle gives me doubts but there's a lot of lube and tiny wood debris packed in there as well, so it kind of gives that clip an extra lip: this makes me think that extra lip look like a layer of lube, its just as confusing to look at in person: here's how much is peeking out: now if that ^ is all that's needed to peek out for the clip to snag, then wouldn't everyone be needed to hold the clip down when they smack it with a plastic hammer? I've seem people just whack it when even more than that is sticking out. That said.. there is certainly something sticking out.. maybe half a millimeter or so. I really wanted to get lucky and have the hammer push it that far to make it truly flush, but it never even budged. If you look at my first post in this thread, it's in the exact same position.

December 26, 2016, 09:38 PM	#56
Hoppy Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 287	Jack, I believe mine was like yours. I could move the spring up and down though with the end of a clothespin. When I let go, it sprang back up and looked like it was catching on the side of the barrel. I forgot to mention earlier that I also took a spent piece of 5.56 brass and folded it over a couple of times to use as a punch after trying the clothespins. With the revolver supported, I ended up just flattening the brass more against the revolver, so I stopped doing that. I managed to wedge a tiny piece of wood between the spring and barrel and then it tapped out with the steel punch easy enough, I used leather to get it started. It was the 3rd try that got it, meaning I started with clothespins as someone mentioned, and that didn't work, then I gave up for an hour or so. Then I tried the brass, that didn't work, so I left again for another hour, then finally got lucky. Sorry, you're having such trouble. Glad there are folks here to help us with these tasks.

December 26, 2016, 09:41 PM	#57
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114	Tell me about it!! I keep thinking about that, what you mentioned about the wood suppressing the spring.. but wouldn't everyone's be catching at this point? This isn't far into the gun, barley peeking out the other side, and I see lots of people just tap it out and not shim anything down.. I thought it had to be significantly further into the gun for the clip to catch the other side. I felt a tiny bit of give on the clip at first but not anymore. When I say tiny, I mean almost non-existent. I even attempted to wedge some wood in but no luck.

December 26, 2016, 10:13 PM	#59
Hoppy Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 287	If there was give before and isn't any longer, that seems to me that you got the wedge moved just a little bit in the direction you want. I just took my wedge out and looked at it. The end of the spring is actually rounded, not a right angle as I imagined if it was to capture the side of the barrel. So, in theory, striking it properly will drive the spring down at the same time as driving the wedge out. My spring seems to have detents as it clicks twice when I compress it (out of the gun). No sure why that is.

December 26, 2016, 10:15 PM	#60
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	Hoppy I think the clicking is just the spring flexing like a Halloween clicker. I'm old enough to remember the clickers. Guess they still use them to train dogs. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

December 26, 2016, 10:17 PM	#61
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114	im tempted to do that with the nail punches and a few layers of cloth in between.. although I can see from the photos there was some marring on the wedge.. just dents though, and the finish wasnt removed. still.. I'll probably need to just wait and get the brass drift punch from track I'll check around at the local ranges for spent brass. They're not that close, and the closest to me has some unsavory staff. I'll need a vise for that too right?

December 26, 2016, 10:19 PM	#62
Hoppy Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 287	"I don't think that you should hit the spring end with the force that will be required to move the wedge. I would suggest strongly that you find something with a small enough diameter(or square shape etc.) to fit inside the wedge slot, beside the spring tip. Then after placing the gun on a non-slip soft surface, place the punch on the end of the wedge beside the spring end and smack it hard. Move to the other side of the spring on the same end of the wedge and repeat. Be sure you have allowed room for the wedge to back out. Sounds like you have already thought of that." foolzrushn This is what worked for me Last edited by Hoppy; December 26, 2016 at 10:24 PM.

December 26, 2016, 10:22 PM	#63
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114	ugh im such an idiot.. i just tried the wrapped nail punch again on one side and marred it

December 26, 2016, 10:25 PM	#64
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114

December 26, 2016, 10:26 PM	#65
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	Jack I doubt that spent brass will be strong enough. I would suggest again that you go talk to a welder or welder supply if you can't find brass punches and don't want to wait. They will probably sell you a single brass brazing rod which should work. Be sure that the rod will fit in the slot, or you will need to file it down smaller. You could also try to find a thick nylon brush handle and cut that to make a punch for now. These are options to get you going now....the punch set is the right way and you will use them again and again. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

December 26, 2016, 10:35 PM	#66
Hoppy Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 287	Foolzrushn - I see what you're saying about the clickers. Makes sense and that's exactly how it acts. Jack - What did you mar? the barrel or the end of the wedge? Just saw your picture. It looks like you're using something with a sharp point. My nail set had a large head that just fit in the wedge slot. The spent brass I tried wasn't up to the task. If you have a local hardware store, they should have brass rod in different diameters. you can get a 12" long piece of either 1/8" or 3/32". I would cut a 3 inch piece of that and try it.

December 26, 2016, 10:49 PM	#67
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114	I'll keep an eye out for those local solutions foolz.. I'll make some calls tomorrow and see if I get lucky while I wait for the track punch. I figured theres no downside in ordering the piece from track as I'll get a lot of uses out of it I hope. Hoppy- the round chip on the left side of the clip is what I did.. yes the punches weren't wedge shaped but a blunt tipped. I was going to try the left side, right side tapping and gave it too much of a whack. The cloth was no match. I'm trying not to be too pissed at myself.. I could have just as easily marred the barrel assembly. I knew it was going to happen too.

December 26, 2016, 11:00 PM	#68
Hoppy Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2000 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 287	I wouldn't worry too much about it. Mine certainly wasn't perfect out of the box. Great for a $200 gun, but I wouldn't sweat it. That's just a small mark on the wedge.

December 26, 2016, 11:53 PM	#69
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Well, as silly as this sounds, try whacking it in a little deeper. The wedges usually aren't very hard and it may size it down ever so slightly. With something of the wedge sticking out on the right side of the barrel, you'll have "wedge" to hit instead of the spring. I usually just hold them in my hand and whack the fool out of them with my plastic faced hammer. Works every time (course, I'm probably meaner than some of y'all !!! Lol!!) Mike www.goonsgunworks.com Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

December 27, 2016, 12:33 AM	#70
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Get a piece of hardwood and put it on the end of the wedge and smack the snot out of it. If it's not moving you're not hitting it hard enough. Baby taps are not going to work.

December 27, 2016, 01:26 AM	#71
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	I agree with Hawg and Dragoon that you will need to really smack it. But do remove any debris (like wood chips) that's between the spring and the wedge first! If you don't, you may find that the spring can't compress in the wedge slot enough to pass back through the arbor slot. The spring would then be wedged against the right side of the arbor internally, stopping movement of the wedge. My understanding is that the wedge spring's function, is just to take up vertical slack and keep the wedge from falling out, before the wedge is tapped snugly into place. From the photo it seems there is some gunk in the forward end of the wedge window. If it's metal, that may have kept the wedge from going in deeper, causing this stuck wedge. I found attached metal flakes in my barrel and arbor slots. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

December 27, 2016, 09:20 AM	#72
44 Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2013 Posts: 584	OK! those Pietta "not too short arbors" Listen to 45 Dragoon and Hawg, and get a little lube in it and "smack it" in both directions the metal is soft enough there is a little stretch when you knock it in a little more.

December 27, 2016, 11:29 AM	#73
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114	Are you sure the wedge is soft enough not to warp the slot if I bang it in further? Here's an image from the Pettifogger docs that show the wedge warping the slot of the barrel assembly even though none of the wedge is sticking out of the right side- I ordered the brass drift punch from Track. Even if I somehow get it out sooner, it'll be good to have around. I'll check around for hardwood so maybe I can carve out a punch like shape to hammer on.

December 27, 2016, 11:37 AM	#74
JACKlangrishe Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 114	Also, I'm way beyond baby taps.. I was hitting this thing like Andy Dufresne in the escape scene of Shawshank Redemption

December 27, 2016, 04:02 PM	#75
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Here's what the brass looks like after I got done hammering it. Note the round / half moon shape of the face.: 1st time I hammered my wedge out, I brought out the 4LB Sledge. Example: http://www.harborfreight.com/4-lb-hi...mer-69240.html That knocked it out of there... Couldn't find my plastic mallet, which I use now w/ the 223 brass, at the time. You might go with this... http://www.harborfreight.com/4-lb-ne...mer-69004.html __________________ NRA Life Member