enfield #4

adrians · September 12, 2011, 10:40 PM

hi can anyone tell me more about what i just dragged home from a gunshow

its a #4mk1 with matching #s but the stampings leaveme a little lost,

the muzzle marks are the most confusing they read:::::NP,,,303,,,2.22
NS
ARE THESE SOME KIND OF PROOF MARKS?
also it says ENGLAND but do you know where in ENGLAND it may have been produced ,,, im not very well versed in enfields as you all can tell . anyway have a good night and hope you can help.
adrians

madcratebuilder · September 13, 2011, 09:54 AM

The 1943 and BA10929 on the wrist show it's a 1943 ROF Maltby rifle.

The "ENGLAND" on the receiver ring is a early country of origin mark that some importers used before the 1968 NFA law. Think of it as a "pre import mark"

The marking on the end of the barrel are Brit proof marks indicating it has tested and release for private sale in Britain.

Hardcase · September 13, 2011, 10:47 AM

The only thing that I have to add is this: Look at those photos! They're sharp, in focus and large enough to see details! Those are exactly the kind of pictures that anybody asking questions ought to post.

adrians · September 13, 2011, 08:09 PM

thankyou so much gentlemen , a Maltby huh.
iv'e heard of them but don't know anything about maltby's history so its google time to see what else i may find out ,now i'm very curious'
thanks again .
maltby huh!!!

gyvel · September 14, 2011, 05:09 AM

Three British arms facilities prodiced No. 4 and No. 5 rifles: Maltby, Shirley and Fazakerly.

madcratebuilder · September 14, 2011, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Three British arms facilities prodiced No. 4 and No. 5 rifles: Maltby, Shirley and Fazakerly.

Sorry to be a nit picker, but as a picker of nits, Maltby only made No4 rifles. The No5 was a BSA and Faz only rifle.

ROF Maltby produced the highest number of Brit made No4's. Not know for the finish but they are know for a proper, good shooting rifle. Faz is know for the amount of A suffix rifles(non standard part(s)) BSA produced some of the best No4's IMHO.

adrians · September 14, 2011, 05:29 PM

hey guys i dug around on google and Maltby is a small town in SOUTH YORKSHIRE northern england and get this i'm a brit (moved here in 1987) but i was born and bred in WEST YORKSHIRE,... so this rifle was made in my home county , now thats spooky or groovy depends on how you look at it .
i think it's way groovy.

James K · September 14, 2011, 06:36 PM

Two other marks of interest are the GP (Gunmakers' Proof) mark of the London proof house, and the broad arrow, the British government property mark.

By U.S. law since the late 19th century, all commercially imported products must be marked with the country of origin (COO). An exception was made for firearms in 1968; those must be now marked with the name and address of the importer and the caliber. The ENGLAND marking means that the rifle was imported prior to 1968.

Jim

BrittB · September 14, 2011, 07:30 PM

I saw a Jungle carbine Enfield #4 this past weekend that was in excellent condition for $350. Was that a good deal?

gyvel · September 15, 2011, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Sorry to be a nit picker, but as a picker of nits, Maltby only made No4 rifles. The No5 was a BSA and Faz only rifle.

Yes, I should have been a bit more specific; The post was more of a generalized blanket statement.

The No. 4s were made at all three facilities, while the No. 5s were only produced at Fazakerly and Shirley.

**Mike Irwin** · September 15, 2011, 06:39 AM

"I saw a Jungle carbine Enfield #4"

The Jungle Carbines are No. 5s.

You have to be careful, though, as reproduction Jungle Carbines were made from No. 1 Mk IIIs.

All the one's I've seen so made have been marked No. 1 Mk III on the stock socket where it's covered by the bolt handle when the handle is closed.

BrittB · September 15, 2011, 07:04 AM

I just read the hanging tag on the rifle and I may have misread it. They were asking $350 for it.

madcratebuilder · September 15, 2011, 07:33 AM

Just be sue it's a real No5, if so and it's in average condition then $350 is not a bad price.

Both the No1's and No4's have been converted to No5 jungle carbine style, mostly by importers.

Here's a Khyber Pass No1 converted to No5.

James K · September 15, 2011, 01:10 PM

$350 would be an excellent price for a No.5 in nice condition, which is why I suspect it is not a No.5.

Jim

Hardcase · September 15, 2011, 02:34 PM

Allan's Armory has a few non-converted jungle carbines for $285 to $300. They're all a little rough (at least by the pictures), which seems to be characteristic of most of the guns he sells, for some reason. Looks like the two best ones have sold and I imagine that the rest will go soon.

James K · September 15, 2011, 09:29 PM

I have what appears to be an unissued and unfired (except for proof) No. 5, and it did cost a few pennies more than $350.

Jim

madcratebuilder · September 16, 2011, 08:24 AM

On the subject of No5's, here's a No5 I picked up last winter from a late seventies gentleman that had bought it in the early 60's. He told me how he paid $20 for the rifle, in unissued condition. He proceeded to cut the end of the flash hider off and installed a Redfield rear sight. This had been his deer rifle his entire life, taken deer and elk with it. I spent several hours talking with him and ended up buying this No5 for $125. I had a spare No5 backsight and found a flash hider at the next gun show. I put the Redfield sight on evil bay and got $100 for it. I still need to clean up the furniture but it well be a pretty nice rifle when finished. I'm seeing more and more of these old rifles come up for sale in estate sales and word of mouth. There are good deals out there if you look for them.

It even had one of the good Golden state five round mags in it.

James K · September 16, 2011, 12:55 PM

More years ago than I care to count, and before things ached when I walked, a friend had a No.5, imported during the 1950's. He had removed the flash hider. I was even, if possible, more ignorant on guns than I am now, and I thought the flash hider was to hide the muzzle flash from the enemy to prevent disclosing the shooter's position.

We were firing that rifle late in the afternoon and after a break decided to fire a few more shots, even though by that time we could barely see the target. Firing Mk VII ammo out of that short barrel in the near dark was an education. Each shot produced a bloom of red, violet, orange, and yellow flame about 3 ft. in diameter and 5 ft. long. When I fired my shots (2), I couldn't see for several minutes. That coupled with the blast (our ear protection was sadly inadequate) left me helpless. An enemy armored division could have come up on me and I would have been unaware of them. So a No. 5 taught me that the primary purpose of a flash hider is to hide the flash from the shooter, not from the enemy.

Jim

madcratebuilder · September 17, 2011, 07:44 AM

Quote:

I thought the flash hider was to hide the muzzle flash from the enemy to prevent disclosing the shooter's position.

Jim, I think you would be surprised how many people still do believe that.

Ignition Override · September 17, 2011, 11:06 PM

madcratebuilder:

"Roger that".
On page 171 of the Stratton book his serial # between 10,000-19,999 indicates a Maltby.

The 'BA' pair of letters seem to confirm it.
This is the first time I've looked up any of these markings.

adrians · September 18, 2011, 09:24 AM

so it's officially a Maltby.
good to know ,now i will have to look for more marks to pick yalls very educated brains...
i'm going to start with the butt plate ,,,where's my kodak at

MADCRATEBUILDER , i wish i would have seen your peep on e-bay i would have given / bid more to get that sight,,,,.
oh well ,ships in the night .

Tikirocker · September 18, 2011, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Jim, I think you would be surprised how many people still do believe that.

Crate ... I'll bite, what do you think the flash hiders purpose is supposed to be on a Jungle Carbine? I'm going to say it was expressly for the purpose of protecting the vision of the shooter ... to curtail blinding by way of the exit flash from the muzzle.

P.S The England stamp was placed there to designate country of origin for Export sale.

Tiki.

madcratebuilder · September 19, 2011, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rockin'Aussie

Crate ... I'll bite, what do you think the flash hiders purpose is supposed to be on a Jungle Carbine? I'm going to say it was expressly for the purpose of protecting the vision of the shooter ... to curtail blinding by way of the exit flash from the muzzle.

It's for the shooters vision, that reply was to Jim's comment.

Quote:

So a No. 5 taught me that the primary purpose of a flash hider is to hide the flash from the shooter, not from the enemy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrians

MADCRATEBUILDER , i wish i would have seen your peep on e-bay i would have given / bid more to get that sight,,,,.
oh well ,ships in the night .

Drop me a PM, I may have something you would like. I still have some Redfield and Williams backsights for the No4's.

Tikirocker · September 19, 2011, 09:43 AM

Quote:

It's for the shooters vision, that reply was to Jim's comment.

\

I know, but for the benefit of others who may not know .... I thought I'd draw it out to an answer.

Tiki.

September 13, 2011, 10:47 AM	#3
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	The only thing that I have to add is this: Look at those photos! They're sharp, in focus and large enough to see details! Those are exactly the kind of pictures that anybody asking questions ought to post. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

September 15, 2011, 06:39 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"I saw a Jungle carbine Enfield #4" The Jungle Carbines are No. 5s. You have to be careful, though, as reproduction Jungle Carbines were made from No. 1 Mk IIIs. All the one's I've seen so made have been marked No. 1 Mk III on the stock socket where it's covered by the bolt handle when the handle is closed. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 15, 2011, 02:34 PM	#15
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	Allan's Armory has a few non-converted jungle carbines for $285 to $300. They're all a little rough (at least by the pictures), which seems to be characteristic of most of the guns he sells, for some reason. Looks like the two best ones have sold and I imagine that the rest will go soon. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

September 18, 2011, 09:24 AM	#21
adrians Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2010 Location: mountain view ,ar. Posts: 184	so it's officially a Maltby. good to know ,now i will have to look for more marks to pick yalls very educated brains... i'm going to start with the butt plate ,,,where's my kodak at MADCRATEBUILDER , i wish i would have seen your peep on e-bay i would have given / bid more to get that sight,,,,. oh well ,ships in the night . Last edited by adrians; September 18, 2011 at 10:42 AM.

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September 13, 2011, 09:54 AM	#2
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	The 1943 and BA10929 on the wrist show it's a 1943 ROF Maltby rifle. The "ENGLAND" on the receiver ring is a early country of origin mark that some importers used before the 1968 NFA law. Think of it as a "pre import mark" The marking on the end of the barrel are Brit proof marks indicating it has tested and release for private sale in Britain.

September 13, 2011, 08:09 PM	#4
adrians Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2010 Location: mountain view ,ar. Posts: 184	thankyou so much gentlemen , a Maltby huh. iv'e heard of them but don't know anything about maltby's history so its google time to see what else i may find out ,now i'm very curious' thanks again . maltby huh!!!

September 14, 2011, 05:09 AM	#5
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Three British arms facilities prodiced No. 4 and No. 5 rifles: Maltby, Shirley and Fazakerly.

September 14, 2011, 05:29 PM	#7
adrians Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2010 Location: mountain view ,ar. Posts: 184	hey guys i dug around on google and Maltby is a small town in SOUTH YORKSHIRE northern england and get this i'm a brit (moved here in 1987) but i was born and bred in WEST YORKSHIRE,... so this rifle was made in my home county , now thats spooky or groovy depends on how you look at it . i think it's way groovy.

September 14, 2011, 06:36 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Two other marks of interest are the GP (Gunmakers' Proof) mark of the London proof house, and the broad arrow, the British government property mark. By U.S. law since the late 19th century, all commercially imported products must be marked with the country of origin (COO). An exception was made for firearms in 1968; those must be now marked with the name and address of the importer and the caliber. The ENGLAND marking means that the rifle was imported prior to 1968. Jim

September 14, 2011, 07:30 PM	#9
BrittB Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2011 Location: Oregon Posts: 554	I saw a Jungle carbine Enfield #4 this past weekend that was in excellent condition for $350. Was that a good deal?

September 15, 2011, 07:04 AM	#12
BrittB Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2011 Location: Oregon Posts: 554	I just read the hanging tag on the rifle and I may have misread it. They were asking $350 for it.

September 15, 2011, 07:33 AM	#13
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Just be sue it's a real No5, if so and it's in average condition then $350 is not a bad price. Both the No1's and No4's have been converted to No5 jungle carbine style, mostly by importers. Here's a Khyber Pass No1 converted to No5.

September 15, 2011, 01:10 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	$350 would be an excellent price for a No.5 in nice condition, which is why I suspect it is not a No.5. Jim

September 15, 2011, 09:29 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I have what appears to be an unissued and unfired (except for proof) No. 5, and it did cost a few pennies more than $350. Jim

September 16, 2011, 08:24 AM	#17
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	On the subject of No5's, here's a No5 I picked up last winter from a late seventies gentleman that had bought it in the early 60's. He told me how he paid $20 for the rifle, in unissued condition. He proceeded to cut the end of the flash hider off and installed a Redfield rear sight. This had been his deer rifle his entire life, taken deer and elk with it. I spent several hours talking with him and ended up buying this No5 for $125. I had a spare No5 backsight and found a flash hider at the next gun show. I put the Redfield sight on evil bay and got $100 for it. I still need to clean up the furniture but it well be a pretty nice rifle when finished. I'm seeing more and more of these old rifles come up for sale in estate sales and word of mouth. There are good deals out there if you look for them. It even had one of the good Golden state five round mags in it.

September 16, 2011, 12:55 PM	#18
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	More years ago than I care to count, and before things ached when I walked, a friend had a No.5, imported during the 1950's. He had removed the flash hider. I was even, if possible, more ignorant on guns than I am now, and I thought the flash hider was to hide the muzzle flash from the enemy to prevent disclosing the shooter's position. We were firing that rifle late in the afternoon and after a break decided to fire a few more shots, even though by that time we could barely see the target. Firing Mk VII ammo out of that short barrel in the near dark was an education. Each shot produced a bloom of red, violet, orange, and yellow flame about 3 ft. in diameter and 5 ft. long. When I fired my shots (2), I couldn't see for several minutes. That coupled with the blast (our ear protection was sadly inadequate) left me helpless. An enemy armored division could have come up on me and I would have been unaware of them. So a No. 5 taught me that the primary purpose of a flash hider is to hide the flash from the shooter, not from the enemy. Jim

September 17, 2011, 11:06 PM	#20
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	madcratebuilder: "Roger that". On page 171 of the Stratton book his serial # between 10,000-19,999 indicates a Maltby. The 'BA' pair of letters seem to confirm it. This is the first time I've looked up any of these markings.