Why didn't modernized Hi Powers ever catch on?

[UncleEd]

Agreed, "no one wanted a 9 mm" but with the proviso that is here, in the US.

The rest of the world, with a few exceptions, considered the 9 mm the standard/universal pistol caliber.

The writer/sometimes body guard Leroy Thompson wrote decades ago that he carried a BHP because it was easy to service and feed except perhaps in the U.S. and his clients were mostly overseas. His BHPs were supplied by Cylinder & Slide which still caters to that pistol.

[kozak6]

The 1911 was the US service pistol, so that's major bonus points.

Also, by the time 9mm's were catching on over here, they were already DA/SA, leaving the Hi Power behind.

[rickmelear]

I would say next to perhaps thinner grips, the HP is perfect as is. Well, once the mag safety is removed. But that's a simple at home remedy.

[scoobysnacker]

The 1911 was the US service pistol, so that's major bonus points.

Also, by the time 9mm's were catching on over here, they were already DA/SA, leaving the Hi Power behind.

Yep. 9mm's just weren't a part of our culture until recently. My memory of handguns in movies/TV were: S&W revolvers for police, 1911's (we used to just call them Colt 45's) for military stuff. 9mm's were what the Germans used in WW2 movies, in Lugers and P38s; and they were 'bad guy' guns.

My memory of the 9 becoming popular was 3 models: the Beretta 92 (Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, and the US Military), the Glock wave, and the mysterious CZ 75, the "best gun nobody could get". Seems like the Sig craze is a lot more recent, and now we see Sigs everywhere on TV too; and they do look better than a Glock to me.

The Hi Power, undeniably a nice gun, was still mostly just a niche pistol, an older model that happened to be hi-cap.

[noonesshowmonkey]

This is provincial question.

The BHP is probably the most manufactured western bloc pistol in the world, up until Glocks.

Just because the US market chose the 1911 due to a band of kool aide drinking Cooper wannabees doesn't mean that the BHP didn't proliferate. It in fact eclipsed the 1911.

The question is better phrased, 'why don't US manufacturer's build BHPs [instead of 1911s]?'

And the answer is because the alternative to the 1911 is the Sig or the Glock in the US market.

[rodfac]

I would say next to perhaps thinner grips, the HP is perfect as is. Well, once the mag safety is removed.

Hell yes. Rod

[Sgt Pepper]

Quote:
I would say next to perhaps thinner grips, the HP is perfect as is. Well, once the mag safety is removed.

Hell yes. Rod

^^^
That x1000. Removing the mag safety is really the only mod needed. The black plastic thumb rest grips work well and feel good, but Spegel's thin delrin grips are incredible. The Navidrex grips that are available are similar to the Spegel's and also worth the purchase. If you have meaty hands like me, you may also want to install a C&S type II hammer for no bite. That is a much better option than adding a beavertail in my opinion.

[WVsig]

Lots of bad info in this thread. So many misstatements it is hard to know where to start. noonesshowmonkey has it correct in that the FN/BHP is the most likely the #1 Western Bloc pistol ever produced in terms of the number of units produced. So many people in this thread are treating what is popular among shooting enthusiast as something universally true for the general public and the rest of the world.

There are a lot of people who purchase 1911s in this country but their overall numbers are small compared to guns like a Glocks or S&Ws M&P models. Look at the numbers from 2012. Kimber the #1 seller of 1911s produced 120,152 guns. Glocks US production topped that at 130,000 and most Glocks are made in Austria. The ones made here are mainly for export. Compare that to Ruger who made 865,671. In 2012 they had just released their 1911 and certainly did not sell as many as Kimber. https://www.shootingindustry.com/u-s...ry-today-2014/

1911s get a lot of play on the forums, gun rags, in movies and on TV but in reality they account for a small percentage of guns sales in the USA. They are popular but not as popular as the gun enthusiast crowd would have you believe.

The 1911 is popular primarily in the USA. It has not been adopted by many other countries as a service pistol. In fact the 45 ACP round is a very American caliber again not really all that popular outside the USA. The FN/BHP on the other hand has been used or adopted by by over 50 countries around the world as a duty side arm. So the idea that the 1911 is more popular only applies to the US.

It just surprises me that it never got the same production custom treatment being the BHP is a John Moses Browning creation much like the 1911, where the CZ75 and all the other Wondernines are not.

The gun we shoot today is not the gun that JMB designed. It is much more Dieudonné Saive design than JMBs which also did not help its popularity in the USA.

There are a lot of BHP clones. There are FM Hi powers, Acurus, FEG & Kareens. They have been produced in varying numbers. They are not at the same level as CZ clones but the fact that CZs were a communist bloc pistol, which could not be imported, helped create their clones in the West more than anything else.

The real reason that the FN/BHP is not more popular here is because FN did not need it to be. They has contracts all over the world for the pistol and to this day they sell everyone that they produce. They concentrated on Military contracts not the US sporting market because they already had massive demand for the pistol. IMHO

[tahunua001]

the 1911 is kindof an odd example, from what I've noticed most steel/metal framed handgun designs change very little over time. usually the major changes are as new companies copy the designs they try and incorporate plastic and change rounds to angles and angles to rounds to make it look like it's not a complete copy.

[larryh1108]

I am a BHP fan and think it is a great pistol.

Why hasn't it taken off like the 1911?

IMO,
1) Price. It has always been pricey compared to other offerings
2) It is "only" a 9mm. In America, .45ACP is king.
3) A company that had no interest in taking it to the next level.

[UncleEd]

Larry,

Your No. 3 I think is correct but Colt didn't take the 1911 to "the next level" until the mid 1980s. Prior to then, better sights, more open ejection ports,
beaver tail grip safeties all pretty much came from talented gunsmiths and
competitors who liked the 1911 as popularized by Jeff Cooper, among others.

I remember always reading about the Bianchi Cup and its champions and their latest 1911 upgrades.

It took forever for Colt to modestly respond. I remember its first "beaver tail" grip safety was a slender rod that did nothing to cushion recoil. It was worse, I thought, than the traditional tang safety that existed since the 1911A1.

[ttarp]

My personal, uneducated opinion, is that folks just aren't interested in single action hammer fired pistols. Yeah SIG has that option on some of their pistols I believe(?), and maybe a few CZ models, but its a plastic and striker fired world out there these days.

[James K]

I don't see mention of the obvious reason, though I might have missed it. There were NO (again, NO) BHP's in the US prior to WWII, due to the Colt/FN agreement to stay out of each others' knickers. And until the agreement expired in the early 1950's the only FN pistols in the U.S. were those captured from the Germans and a few purchased in Belgium by travelers or (later) U.S. soldiers.

Plus, at that time, the idea of American troops and police being armed with a 9mm anything would have evoked loud laughter. Americans armed with a German caliber? What is the next joke? Americans driving Japanese cars? Too silly to even think about!

Jim

[44 AMP]

It just surprises me that it never got the same production custom treatment being the BHP is a John Moses Browning creation much like the 1911, where the CZ75 and all the other Wondernines are not.

The gun we shoot today is not the gun that JMB designed. It is much more Dieudonné Saive design than JMBs which also did not help its popularity in the USA.

You beat me to it!

JM Browning died shortly after making the first prototype(s?). The finished pistol is different from the original prototype in many ways, external and internal. FN, successfully banked on the market popularity of Browning's name, and kept it attached to the gun. Rumor has it that the magazine disconnect was designed at the request of the French, who then declined to buy...

Actual numbers produced, as a reflection of CIVILIAN popularity is a red herring, when the manufacturer is supplying military contracts (of several nations) as well as the civilian market.

And yes, the 1911 and .45ACP were not adopted by many other countries, I can only think of Argentina and Norway. (countries equipped by the US don't count).

But consider this, FN marketed to the world, like Mauser and other European gunmakers. That was their business, and they were good at it. Until WWII, the only maker of 1911s was Colt, and Colt wasn't trying to arm the world as their primary business.

Don't know how anyone could not at least have seen a Hi Power, but I guess we've been living under different rocks.

I had a commercial Hi Power in the 80s, it was a sweet gun, with a couple of disgusting (to my 1911 trained self) features.

The grip felt wonderful. A nice plus. The safety was small, and felt mushy to me. A minus. You couldn't lower the hammer without a mag in the gun (unless you had long and strong fingers) and it too the proverbial 3 men and a boy to pull the trigger!! HUGE negative to me. (and another reason to dislike the French!)

Not deal breakers, just things about the gun that I felt should have been done better (safety) and done without (mag disconnector).

The main things that kept the Hi Power from being very popular in the US were, #1) it was a 9mm, #2) it was expensive. #3) not very common (see #1&#2) kept it there, and by the time those things were being addressed, it had competition that was DA, and held even more rounds of 9mm, with lower retail prices.

[HisSoldier]

After buying a BHP and working to lighten the trigger I know why the 1911 is so popular. What a weird mechanical ignition train! It's not a bad gun but it's no 1911.

[AzShooter]

Sports like IPSC and USPSA have diminished the desire for a 9 mm gun since there is Major and Minor Scoring and the .45 was King. Now the desire is a 1911 in .38 Super. For production the 9 is still used.

The 1911 frame offers a great trigger platform and many modifications for the shooter. One shooter I remember in the 80s was National Champion. He shot the .45 like no one else at the time but when it came to shooting steel targets he shot his High Power for the extra rounds it had.

In many of the sports now where Major is not needed the 9 mm has taken over. Look at Steel Challenge.

[UncleEd]

HisSoldier,

The trigger and its design mechanics and heaviness are often brought up.
But the design has proven itself around the world (as has the 1911's to be sure) and even in copying it the heavy trigger and mag disconnect were retained. Why? Because it's a military gun to be used under stress. The British, its commonwealth nations and dozens of other countries found these aspects no hindrance.

Which leads me to AZShooter's comments.

The gaming aspects of handgunning are pointed out. But the BHP was not
reworked for games. It stayed exactly as it has always been because, again,
it's truly a military and police pistol. And that's how most of the world saw it and the reason it was purchased or copied.

As for a lighter trigger today, gunsmiths and home tinkerers accomplish that on the BHP all the time if so wished.

[CajunBass]

Deleted. AZShooter said it better.

[WVsig]

JM Browning died shortly after making the first prototype(s?). The finished pistol is different from the original prototype in many ways, external and internal. FN, successfully banked on the market popularity of Browning's name, and kept it attached to the gun. Rumor has it that the magazine disconnect was designed at the request of the French, who then declined to buy...

It was as much out of respect for "le maître" or the master as it was for marketing purposes that FN named the new gun The Browning High Power.

The magazine disconnect was part of the French contract requirements much like the thumb safety on the 1911. With contract guns like the 1911 JMB and other designers did what the contract specified. If they had ask for a beavertail it would have had a beavertail or pink grips if that was the spec.

Sports like IPSC and USPSA have diminished the desire for a 9 mm gun since there is Major and Minor Scoring and the .45 was King. Now the desire is a 1911 in .38 Super. For production the 9 is still used.

The 1911 frame offers a great trigger platform and many modifications for the shooter. One shooter I remember in the 80s was National Champion. He shot the .45 like no one else at the time but when it came to shooting steel targets he shot his High Power for the extra rounds it had.

In many of the sports now where Major is not needed the 9 mm has taken over. Look at Steel Challenge.

Too much emphasis is being placed on gun games in this discussion. 99% of 1911s or really any handgun purchased in the USA is never going to see gun game. The sports are very popular with people on gun boards and are growing but they are not as far reaching as people in this thread make them. The are sort of a version of inside baseball. If you stood at the big retailer like Buds gun in Lexington KY and asked 100 people who where buying guns what is IPSC or USPSA they vast majority I would estimate 90% would have no idea what you are talking about let alone know the difference between Major and Minor scoring.

People here think the gun games works is what drives manufacturers to make this vs that but really it is about what is avg joe who shoots less than 500 rounds a year going to think is cool that drives the manufacturers. Marketing and creating then feed consumers desires are what drive production not gun games or even performance for the mass market.

Thread seems lacking without pics:

[UncleEd]

WVsig,

I've already told you hold much I like the BHP you show. Now stop it!

It makes the Nighthawk BHP look downright....well, downright......it could
at least have something like the stippling you have, not cat scratches.

One thing I've noted on the Nighthawk is that the pivot pin for the sear lever
is moved back a couple millimeters to gain better leverage. Your BHP
pivot pin location seems to be in the original spot. I don't know that it
helps a lot or not but I've seen the newer location done by some smiths.
Question ever come up on your gun?

[WVsig]

One thing I've noted on the Nighthawk is that the pivot pin for the sear lever
is moved back a couple millimeters to gain better leverage. Your BHP
pivot pin location seems to be in the original spot. I don't know that it
helps a lot or not but I've seen the newer location done by some smiths.
Question ever come up on your gun?

I am not sure who is making the trigger for Nighthawk but mine is a Garthwaite trigger. The Nighthawk looks the same and uses the same terminology. "Competition". My trigger pin is in the stock location. I can't speak to if a change would get you better leverage.

http://garthwaite.myshopify.com/cart

[WVsig]

But by the 1980s, talk emerged that FN was going to drop the BHP. I found some quality issues with them at that time but then FN started having the BHPs assembled in Portugal and the quality and finish of them immediately improved. Portugal still had and apparently still does old-time craftsmen who could finish the pistols in the gun's time-honored tradition.

FN has been assembling BHPs in Portugal since about 1971. Prior to that small runs or batches were finished there is small shops. I agree 100% that FN was making use of lower production cost in Portugal but still getting old-time hand craftsmanship.

The confusion often arises from the birth of the assembled in Portugal rollmark which appeared in on guns destined for the US marking in the early 80's. This rollmark is not found on guns not intended to be shipped to the US market. The only exception being the FN rollmarked guns which were imported in the late 90's through Coumbia, SC and Fredericskburg, VA. These do not have the Portugal markings but were still assembled in Portugal.

The old wife's tale surrounding the rollmark is that FN misinterpreted the import rollmark rules and stamped US import guns "Assembled in Portugal" even though they did not have to but once it was done simply left it. This has never been confirmed.

[rodfac]

WvSig & Uncle Ed, great discussion...I've learned a few things about that venerable old war-horse of a pistol. Not withstanding its 9mm caliber for the most part, my .40 is apple of my eye, far and away the best .40 I've owned. Accuracy with good hand loads is on the order of 2" or less at 25 yds...'bout all my 70 yo eyes can do anymore.

With the deactivation of the magazine disconnect, my trigger improved 100%. I'd estimate that it's in the 4.5 lb. range...perfect for my use since that's the same weight I have on my 1911's and a good CC weight too...ie. not to light for every day carry.

WvSig, is that a tritium front sight dot on your HP in the pic? I've wanted to improve the sights on my .40 (they're adj. now); and would prefer a lower to the bore pairing, but still retain a more ramped front (with the tritium dot) than yours and an adj. rear. Any suggestions?

Thanks for a good discussion, Rod

[Nathan]

I'm interested in picking one up to either build up or just to shoot.....

How do you recommend getting into a Hi Power? I see them for:

$400 - well used surplus

$600 - slightly improved surplus

$800 ish new in box


Any preference? I would like to end up with a BHP under $1000 with a good trigger, extended safety, some grip treatment and decent sights

[WVsig]

WvSig, is that a tritium front sight dot on your HP in the pic? I've wanted to improve the sights on my .40 (they're adj. now); and would prefer a lower to the bore pairing, but still retain a more ramped front (with the tritium dot) than yours and an adj. rear. Any suggestions?

It is a gold bead. I find it to be faster than the tritium or white dot. If you want something that is adjustable and lower to the bore I would go with one of these two options.

This is a S&W revolver sight which has been installed into the slide. Don Williams of The Action Works can do that for you.





The other way I would look to go would be a Bomar type sight like on this one. This one is actually a older Bomar sight but there are tons of 1911 versions that are currently available. Again a smith like Don Williams can install just about anything you want.



If you have a particular 1911 adjustable sight setup I would call him and see what he can do for you.