load development range ?

rebs · May 6, 2019, 06:22 AM

at what range do you guys do your load development ?

disseminator · May 6, 2019, 07:42 AM

Ideally, 100 Yards. But, depending on the time of year I may be limited to the 50 Yards limit of my local indoor range. In that case I'll work them up at 50, then take them out to 100 when the weather gets more agreeable.

5whiskey · May 6, 2019, 07:48 AM

Depends on the application. If I'm going for legit sub-moa I like to conduct an initial test at 100 yards. Subsequent refinement loadings will usually be tested at 200 on a calm day. Why? I just do. 200 is not so far that environmental factors start playing heck with your results, but at the same time it is far enough for me to test loads at a more standard distance for me (I rarely shoot rifles that I spend time actually working a load up for closer than 200).

For gas gun fodder where good enough for government work is a thing, 100 yards. If I can hold moa (or near it) there for your standard AR I'm good with it. That's better than most factory ammo will get you, and better than any inexpensive bulk ammo.

Reloadron · May 6, 2019, 08:22 AM

Generally at the 100 yrd line and then moving out to the 200 yard line. That's as good as it gets since my local outdoor range only goes to 200 yards.

Ron

hounddawg · May 6, 2019, 08:56 AM

100 to find nodes and get velocity data and seating depth for best grouping

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...yards.3814361/

if it won't shoot well at 100 it sure as heck does not get any better stretching it out

FrankenMauser · May 6, 2019, 10:36 AM

Short range stuff (< 100 yd): Whatever range it is intended to be used at.

Longer range: Typically 100 yards. Once good at 100 yards, I'll move out to whatever else is available and applicable, to verify drop and play with the wind. - From 200 to 1,000+ yards, depending upon location/facility/cartridge/rifle/intent.

**Aguila Blanca** · May 6, 2019, 11:03 AM

I dunno. I can't ever hit much at 100 yards with my 1911s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebs

at what range do you guys do your load development ?

Should we assume that you're asking about centerfire rifle?

**Unclenick** · May 6, 2019, 11:28 AM

For rifle, Randolf Constantine recommended 300 yards as giving you enough range to see bullet drop variation with MV variation and for wind not to be unmanageable if you pick the right time of day. Most of us are stuck with 100 yards, however. At that range the MV spread won't have much effect on vertical point of impact and drift that is opening groups up doesn't have a lot of time to act, so resolving changes in group size becomes difficult, making something like Dan Newberry's OCW method more effective at locating nodes. You can, at that range, use your chronograph to find velocity flat spots to get starting points for firing Newberry round robins with fewer rounds in them, and you can still tell a bughole from a less perfect load. So you can do the development anywhere, provided you compensate. At 300 yards the old Audette ladder works and if you have found velocity nodes, it, too, can be shortened for fine tuning the loads.

For the 1911 it is 50 yards for me, same as the standard NRA slow fire target.

RC20 · May 6, 2019, 11:38 AM

I wish I could do at least 200 yards regularly but that is out in the winter (or so tough as not to be too feasible)

Mostly I plonk at 100.

We have a 300 meter range but you need a some kind of wheels to get down and back otherwise you kill yourself walking!

I plan on getting back to the 200 and 300 meter range now that summer is here.

Our local 100 has a covered shed and heaters. Its just enough that you can shoot down to 5 degrees ok (granted I put on my pipeline down pants) and a glove on the left hand and sometimes a glove with the trigger finger cut off on the right.

Some layers as well though the pants help a lot keeping heat in the furnace.

T. O'Heir · May 6, 2019, 01:22 PM

Shoot at 100, off a solid rest, for group only. And consistency is more important than group size.
Once you have a group you can sight in based on ballistics tables. Most cartridges' bullets, especially deer cartridges, drop like bricks past 300 yards.

Geezerbiker · May 6, 2019, 02:55 PM

Without more info it's hard to make a recommendation. For my woods rifles, I sight them in at 75 yards and test my loads at the same range. For my rifles that I think I'd be shooting longer distances, I sight in and test at 100 yards at first then 200 to verify if I get the chance.

I have a .300 Blackout single shot that I shoot mostly cast bullets from it at subsonic speeds. I test and sight it in for 30 yards like I do with my handguns...

Tony

5whiskey · May 6, 2019, 03:40 PM

Quote:

For rifle, Randolf Constantine recommended 300 yards as giving you enough range to see bullet drop variation with MV variation

That's been part of my belief in refining at 200 yards, is that vertical stringing (a possible indicator of higher velocity S/D) would be more apparent than at 100. Been doing this since before I ever dreamed of having access to a chrono.

FWIW, I've never really had anything that shot well at 100 to turn to crap at 200+ so my old habit apparently serves no real purpose. Further, I've actually had a rifle I could shoot far better groups at 300 yards than I could at 100 yards (better as measured in MOA). The more I've researched it, the more I believe it is from non-adjustable scope parallax on that rifle though I seem to believe I had similar experience with a different scope. I have often thought of setting up Bryan Litz's experiment on converging groups. That has never been proven. That I used to believe in but no longer do but it would be awesome if I was the first to prove it as a real phenomena

jmorris · May 6, 2019, 05:04 PM

I develop loads under conditions I intend to use them. For my pistol shot loads, that may be a few feet. For long range Varmint loads, could be hundreds of yards.

74A95 · May 6, 2019, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebs

at what range do you guys do your load development ?

what gun?

std7mag · May 7, 2019, 02:16 AM

For rifle, i start at 100 yards.
I've had powder/bullet combos that just gave me a ragged hole at 100 yards.
If you get that, do test again at 200 yards.

For pistol i use 25 yards.

zeke · May 7, 2019, 06:52 AM

Scoped rifle loads at 100 yds to start, then checked at increasing distances. If a load doesn't do as well as expected at 100 yds, may check it again out to 200/300 yds, especially when at edge of rifle twist/bullet weight. Will start on paper to sight in, but rapidly transition to steel targets.

Pistol loads are tested at 25 yds, but my eyesight ain't getting any better.

rebs · May 7, 2019, 08:29 AM

the rifle is a 223 bolt gun

cw308 · May 7, 2019, 03:06 PM

I start all my tests at 100 yards , when I get the tightest group consistently I then brought it to 200 yards , only difference it shot rwo inchec lower if I did my part , the further out you see how important shooting form is keeping the crosshairs on target . You may get one ragged hole at 100 not so easy at 200 . Don't try a get unrealistic groups at longer ranges . Makes shooting more enjoyable .
PS: I'm shooting at 200 yards only with a 308 with wind 5 - 10 mph , 223 when shooting for tight groups do it on a day with perfect wind conditions . Reading the wind is another art . Wind will definitely make that perfect load a nightmare.

RC20 · May 7, 2019, 03:33 PM

Once you get out past 300 yard (though it can affect things short of that with right wind velocity and angle) then it is the wind and even you speed deviation.

Ergo, 300 is as far out as I want to go. Not interested in the long range game though will try the 1000 yard range up North some day just to have done it.

cw308 · May 7, 2019, 04:42 PM

Never went past 200 , that's the maximum distance for ranges in my area . For those who shoot 300 what rifle , caliber and group size are you getting at that distance. I'd like to know your 100 , 200 and 300 yard groups and the changes you made to get them .

Bart B. · May 9, 2019, 08:36 AM

Depending on the barrel muzzle axis vertical vibration frequency and the angle bullets leave above the LOS, groups at short ranges can be bigger in MOA than those at longer ranges. If all bullets leave on the muzzle axis up swing, slower ones depart at higher angles to the LOS than faster ones. Vibration frequency is the same for every shot; bullet barrel time to exit changes inversley with muzzle velocity.

This is called positive compensation. Best bullet exit point is near the peak on the upswing. Some use an adjustable tuning weight at the muzzle to change its vibrating frequency. Adjusting charge weight changes barrel time. Bryan Litz's stand on converging groups was disproved decades ago. And every time today by folks adjusting barrel tuners to get best compensation for bullet drop versus LOF angle.

I think it is best to test at the ranges you will use.

Bart B. · May 9, 2019, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Most cartridges' bullets, especially deer cartridges, drop like bricks past 300 yards.

What is the drop rate for bullets and bricks for the first 2 seconds of fall?

cw308 · May 9, 2019, 11:31 AM

Bart B
Glad your back , the reason I asked was because I shoot only at 200 yards , when testing at 100 yards and squeezing out the tightest group I could shoot I moved to 200 yards , grouped still tight .5 on the average . I only had to adjust for hight 2" , if I could go longer I'm pretty sure my charge would have to increase . I'm shooting 308 with a 168 MK over 40.8 gr.of IMR4064 only shoot in good condition no more then 10 mph. Shooting a 223 I don't think you could get away with shooting with a light charge like I do on the low end of the scale .

**Unclenick** · May 9, 2019, 12:57 PM

I was going to point out T. O'Heir is correct. If you took a bullet and a brick up the leaning tower of Pisa and dropped them both at the same time, they would hit the ground at the same time.

Re 200 v. 300, Randolf Constantine said Crieghton Audette used 200 yards. He just felt the resolution of the resulting hole location was clearer and easier to evaluate accurately at 300.

Bart B. · May 9, 2019, 01:18 PM

Note the fact that smallbore 22 rimfire rifles often have tuners to change muzzle axis frequency to one setting for 50 yards and another for 100. Same lot of ammo used at both ranges.

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articl...g_a_barrel.htm

Frequency goes up/higher as the tuning weight moves back, down/lower if moved forward.

May 6, 2019, 06:22 AM	#1
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	load development range ? at what range do you guys do your load development ?

May 6, 2019, 07:48 AM	#3
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,652	Depends on the application. If I'm going for legit sub-moa I like to conduct an initial test at 100 yards. Subsequent refinement loadings will usually be tested at 200 on a calm day. Why? I just do. 200 is not so far that environmental factors start playing heck with your results, but at the same time it is far enough for me to test loads at a more standard distance for me (I rarely shoot rifles that I spend time actually working a load up for closer than 200). For gas gun fodder where good enough for government work is a thing, 100 yards. If I can hold moa (or near it) there for your standard AR I'm good with it. That's better than most factory ammo will get you, and better than any inexpensive bulk ammo. __________________ Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946

May 6, 2019, 08:56 AM	#5
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	100 to find nodes and get velocity data and seating depth for best grouping http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...yards.3814361/ if it won't shoot well at 100 it sure as heck does not get any better stretching it out __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

May 6, 2019, 10:36 AM	#6
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Short range stuff (< 100 yd): Whatever range it is intended to be used at. Longer range: Typically 100 yards. Once good at 100 yards, I'll move out to whatever else is available and applicable, to verify drop and play with the wind. - From 200 to 1,000+ yards, depending upon location/facility/cartridge/rifle/intent. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

May 6, 2019, 11:28 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	For rifle, Randolf Constantine recommended 300 yards as giving you enough range to see bullet drop variation with MV variation and for wind not to be unmanageable if you pick the right time of day. Most of us are stuck with 100 yards, however. At that range the MV spread won't have much effect on vertical point of impact and drift that is opening groups up doesn't have a lot of time to act, so resolving changes in group size becomes difficult, making something like Dan Newberry's OCW method more effective at locating nodes. You can, at that range, use your chronograph to find velocity flat spots to get starting points for firing Newberry round robins with fewer rounds in them, and you can still tell a bughole from a less perfect load. So you can do the development anywhere, provided you compensate. At 300 yards the old Audette ladder works and if you have found velocity nodes, it, too, can be shortened for fine tuning the loads. For the 1911 it is 50 yards for me, same as the standard NRA slow fire target. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 6, 2019, 07:42 AM	#2
disseminator Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Location: Minnesota Posts: 960	Ideally, 100 Yards. But, depending on the time of year I may be limited to the 50 Yards limit of my local indoor range. In that case I'll work them up at 50, then take them out to 100 when the weather gets more agreeable.

May 6, 2019, 08:22 AM	#4
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	Generally at the 100 yrd line and then moving out to the 200 yard line. That's as good as it gets since my local outdoor range only goes to 200 yards. Ron

May 6, 2019, 11:38 AM	#9
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I wish I could do at least 200 yards regularly but that is out in the winter (or so tough as not to be too feasible) Mostly I plonk at 100. We have a 300 meter range but you need a some kind of wheels to get down and back otherwise you kill yourself walking! I plan on getting back to the 200 and 300 meter range now that summer is here. Our local 100 has a covered shed and heaters. Its just enough that you can shoot down to 5 degrees ok (granted I put on my pipeline down pants) and a glove on the left hand and sometimes a glove with the trigger finger cut off on the right. Some layers as well though the pants help a lot keeping heat in the furnace. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

May 6, 2019, 01:22 PM	#10
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Shoot at 100, off a solid rest, for group only. And consistency is more important than group size. Once you have a group you can sight in based on ballistics tables. Most cartridges' bullets, especially deer cartridges, drop like bricks past 300 yards. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

May 6, 2019, 02:55 PM	#11
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	Without more info it's hard to make a recommendation. For my woods rifles, I sight them in at 75 yards and test my loads at the same range. For my rifles that I think I'd be shooting longer distances, I sight in and test at 100 yards at first then 200 to verify if I get the chance. I have a .300 Blackout single shot that I shoot mostly cast bullets from it at subsonic speeds. I test and sight it in for 30 yards like I do with my handguns... Tony

May 6, 2019, 05:04 PM	#13
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	I develop loads under conditions I intend to use them. For my pistol shot loads, that may be a few feet. For long range Varmint loads, could be hundreds of yards.

May 7, 2019, 02:16 AM	#15
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	For rifle, i start at 100 yards. I've had powder/bullet combos that just gave me a ragged hole at 100 yards. If you get that, do test again at 200 yards. For pistol i use 25 yards. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

May 7, 2019, 06:52 AM	#16
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Scoped rifle loads at 100 yds to start, then checked at increasing distances. If a load doesn't do as well as expected at 100 yds, may check it again out to 200/300 yds, especially when at edge of rifle twist/bullet weight. Will start on paper to sight in, but rapidly transition to steel targets. Pistol loads are tested at 25 yds, but my eyesight ain't getting any better.

May 7, 2019, 08:29 AM	#17
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	the rifle is a 223 bolt gun

May 7, 2019, 03:06 PM	#18
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I start all my tests at 100 yards , when I get the tightest group consistently I then brought it to 200 yards , only difference it shot rwo inchec lower if I did my part , the further out you see how important shooting form is keeping the crosshairs on target . You may get one ragged hole at 100 not so easy at 200 . Don't try a get unrealistic groups at longer ranges . Makes shooting more enjoyable . PS: I'm shooting at 200 yards only with a 308 with wind 5 - 10 mph , 223 when shooting for tight groups do it on a day with perfect wind conditions . Reading the wind is another art . Wind will definitely make that perfect load a nightmare. Last edited by cw308; May 7, 2019 at 03:17 PM.

May 7, 2019, 03:33 PM	#19
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Once you get out past 300 yard (though it can affect things short of that with right wind velocity and angle) then it is the wind and even you speed deviation. Ergo, 300 is as far out as I want to go. Not interested in the long range game though will try the 1000 yard range up North some day just to have done it. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

May 7, 2019, 04:42 PM	#20
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Never went past 200 , that's the maximum distance for ranges in my area . For those who shoot 300 what rifle , caliber and group size are you getting at that distance. I'd like to know your 100 , 200 and 300 yard groups and the changes you made to get them .

May 9, 2019, 08:36 AM	#21
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Depending on the barrel muzzle axis vertical vibration frequency and the angle bullets leave above the LOS, groups at short ranges can be bigger in MOA than those at longer ranges. If all bullets leave on the muzzle axis up swing, slower ones depart at higher angles to the LOS than faster ones. Vibration frequency is the same for every shot; bullet barrel time to exit changes inversley with muzzle velocity. This is called positive compensation. Best bullet exit point is near the peak on the upswing. Some use an adjustable tuning weight at the muzzle to change its vibrating frequency. Adjusting charge weight changes barrel time. Bryan Litz's stand on converging groups was disproved decades ago. And every time today by folks adjusting barrel tuners to get best compensation for bullet drop versus LOF angle. I think it is best to test at the ranges you will use. Last edited by Bart B.; May 9, 2019 at 09:28 AM.

May 9, 2019, 11:31 AM	#23
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Bart B Glad your back , the reason I asked was because I shoot only at 200 yards , when testing at 100 yards and squeezing out the tightest group I could shoot I moved to 200 yards , grouped still tight .5 on the average . I only had to adjust for hight 2" , if I could go longer I'm pretty sure my charge would have to increase . I'm shooting 308 with a 168 MK over 40.8 gr.of IMR4064 only shoot in good condition no more then 10 mph. Shooting a 223 I don't think you could get away with shooting with a light charge like I do on the low end of the scale .

May 9, 2019, 12:57 PM	#24
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I was going to point out T. O'Heir is correct. If you took a bullet and a brick up the leaning tower of Pisa and dropped them both at the same time, they would hit the ground at the same time. Re 200 v. 300, Randolf Constantine said Crieghton Audette used 200 yards. He just felt the resolution of the resulting hole location was clearer and easier to evaluate accurately at 300. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 9, 2019, 01:18 PM	#25
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Note the fact that smallbore 22 rimfire rifles often have tuners to change muzzle axis frequency to one setting for 50 yards and another for 100. Same lot of ammo used at both ranges. http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articl...g_a_barrel.htm Frequency goes up/higher as the tuning weight moves back, down/lower if moved forward.