Hostage Situation - Page 2

Lee Lapin · May 2, 2012, 12:52 AM

One trainer (Louis Awerbuck) I know uses this approach with students. It's a challenge... every time.

http://www.yfainc.com/mirage.html

In 1989, YFA originated the Mirage Target System to try and address the problem of training on flat, stationary targets on the range and then facing 3-dimensional moving targets in the streets. Another purpose of designing this target was to make the shooter understand that he is responsible for the terminal resting place of projectiles and to concentrate on shot placement so as to be able to better judge whether an intended shot would be viable.

Originally, the system used flat or curved cardboard with targets that simulated a human form. It then evolved into a system which utilized 3-dimensional plastic humanoid-shaped targets on which clothing was draped in order to present a more realistic figure. We added the availability for the targets to simulate holding a hostage in front of them, and then the availability to have more than one target so as to better simulate a bystander problem.

Today, the system takes up to 6 humanoid targets, any one of - or up to four of - which can be set to move erratically. The configuration in the accompanying photographs show the middle target sliding between two others. This particular setup forces the student to take angles of fire and foreground and background problems into account. The target system is utilized in all YFA courses so that the student can put together many facets of the training he has received in a situation that is as close to a street problem as possible for range training.

Over a dozen years ago, YFA also pioneered the use of three-dimensional and negative paper and cardboard targets to "acclimatize" the trainee to the concept of defense against human adversary-shaped forms and finite shot placement.

FM12 · May 3, 2012, 11:29 PM

In re"Giving up your gun, read"The Onion Field" by Joseph Wambaugh. Hard to read, but excellent nonetheless.

Vermonter · May 4, 2012, 10:31 AM

I have seen that suggested before I will have to take a look.
Regards, Vermonter

Vermonter · May 4, 2012, 10:39 AM

Just ordered a copy $6 including shipping. Not a bad deal over at amazon if you look hard enough.

Dwight55 · May 4, 2012, 11:11 AM

Lee Lapin, . . . thanks for the post, . . . that looks like it could evolve into a fun and informative outing.

May God bless,
Dwight

bikerbill · May 10, 2012, 09:42 AM

Since I'm not in LE, the only hostage I might realistically have to worry about would be my wife ... so ... we've worked on a code to help get us out of the situation. We've agreed that if I believe I can be successful, I'll call her by her middle name and she will immediately lift her legs, letting her weight pull her out of the BG's grasp while I have a clear shot at center mass ... there are obviously some problems with this, and we've worked on under what circumstances we might try it. Somebody addled on drugs or booze might be a good choice, where somebody who was sober and determined might not. Hostage situations are perhaps the most dire we might face and I feel if there's any possibility of success, it's worth taking the shot, with the alternative being the sure death or injury of both of us.

Just a thought ...

Nanuk · May 10, 2012, 10:33 AM

Its always nice to have a trained hostage. We always trained with a duress code to be used if taken hostage, usually you call your partner by your name, because sometimes an immediate reaction can end the situation safer. The trained hostage can help by placing their weight suddenly on the hostage taker, squirming, whatever to distract the hostage taker.

I have trained my wife, and also for her to close her eyes as I do not want for her eyes to be damaged by the flash or debris that comes out with the bullet.

Vermonter · May 10, 2012, 01:02 PM

That is fantastic. Hadn't even considered the possibility. I assume the only good tatic here would be to go dead weight?

Nanuk · May 12, 2012, 08:13 PM

yep.

Also the doctrine of ensuing the hostage takers do now escape and the hostages are expendable was military doctrine in the 70's and 80's when we were dealing with the red brigade.

Glenn Dee · May 13, 2012, 10:52 AM

Wow some great information here.

I come from the other side of the equasion. I'm a trained hostage negotiator. Kraigway is dead on the money with his comments. As far as a trained hostage?... I attended a course with a pretty young female officer from plainfield NJ. I wont mention her name in defference to her family, and survivors. It may have been a month or two later she was taken hostage by some deranged gunman and had a gun to her head. In the course we took we learned how a police hostage could communicate with brother officers and make action plans. I watched as she was sending all the signals. I could see the desperation in her face... She was signalling "I'm going to drop... shoot this M-F. But the negotiator held off and chose to talk to the perp who shot Officer P through the head. This whole thing played out on TV that night. Of course they edited out her death.

I guess the point of my story is this... In a hostage situation things are best left up to professionals. This is the Hostages best chance for survival. Hostage gaming is fine as well as fun. In a real situation a trained military, police, or citizen should be used. As well a hostage situation shooter should be trained as a hostage situation shooter. There is a difference.

P/S the police hostage negotiator in the above situation didnt have a clue.

SWglockmagnum · May 14, 2012, 12:07 AM

you may want to seek out some tactical training instructors in your area. we have a few here. i only just recently learned about these, but plan to start taking classes as often as possible as well as getting back into martial arts. i've been out for about 3 years, though hold 4 blackbelts. i wish to continue with kung fu.

it centers me... and i feel that if i go back to that, i'd be less inclined to use my CCW unless i had literally no other choice.

MTT TL · May 14, 2012, 10:40 PM

I believe the odds of this situation occurring to me is about the same as winning the lottery, probably less so. I know of people who have won the lottery and have never heard of this happening in real life. Police may have to deal with it and i hope the 45 rounds they shot at the range last year pays off...

Sport45 · May 14, 2012, 11:10 PM

I just have Mrs Sport45 run around downrange with a cardboard cutout of a bad guy held behind her. She gets really upset if I hit her instead of the target.

Just kidding, of course. I haven't graduated to tactical drills at the range. I just try to see how fast I can keep 3 to 5 rounds on a paper plate at 15 yards. I've watched IDPA matches and think that would be good training. Being a competition would add the adrenalin factor. Kind of like a HP rifle match.

May 2, 2012, 12:52 AM	#26
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	One trainer (Louis Awerbuck) I know uses this approach with students. It's a challenge... every time. http://www.yfainc.com/mirage.html In 1989, YFA originated the Mirage Target System to try and address the problem of training on flat, stationary targets on the range and then facing 3-dimensional moving targets in the streets. Another purpose of designing this target was to make the shooter understand that he is responsible for the terminal resting place of projectiles and to concentrate on shot placement so as to be able to better judge whether an intended shot would be viable. Originally, the system used flat or curved cardboard with targets that simulated a human form. It then evolved into a system which utilized 3-dimensional plastic humanoid-shaped targets on which clothing was draped in order to present a more realistic figure. We added the availability for the targets to simulate holding a hostage in front of them, and then the availability to have more than one target so as to better simulate a bystander problem. Today, the system takes up to 6 humanoid targets, any one of - or up to four of - which can be set to move erratically. The configuration in the accompanying photographs show the middle target sliding between two others. This particular setup forces the student to take angles of fire and foreground and background problems into account. The target system is utilized in all YFA courses so that the student can put together many facets of the training he has received in a situation that is as close to a street problem as possible for range training. Over a dozen years ago, YFA also pioneered the use of three-dimensional and negative paper and cardboard targets to "acclimatize" the trainee to the concept of defense against human adversary-shaped forms and finite shot placement. __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

May 4, 2012, 10:31 AM	#28
Vermonter Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2010 Posts: 962	Onion Field I have seen that suggested before I will have to take a look. Regards, Vermonter

May 4, 2012, 10:39 AM	#29
Vermonter Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2010 Posts: 962	Onion Field Just ordered a copy $6 including shipping. Not a bad deal over at amazon if you look hard enough.

May 4, 2012, 11:11 AM	#30
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	Lee Lapin, . . . thanks for the post, . . . that looks like it could evolve into a fun and informative outing. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

May 10, 2012, 09:42 AM	#31
bikerbill Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Lago Vista TX Posts: 2,425	Since I'm not in LE, the only hostage I might realistically have to worry about would be my wife ... so ... we've worked on a code to help get us out of the situation. We've agreed that if I believe I can be successful, I'll call her by her middle name and she will immediately lift her legs, letting her weight pull her out of the BG's grasp while I have a clear shot at center mass ... there are obviously some problems with this, and we've worked on under what circumstances we might try it. Somebody addled on drugs or booze might be a good choice, where somebody who was sober and determined might not. Hostage situations are perhaps the most dire we might face and I feel if there's any possibility of success, it's worth taking the shot, with the alternative being the sure death or injury of both of us. Just a thought ... __________________ "The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." Albert Camus

May 3, 2012, 11:29 PM	#27
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	In re"Giving up your gun, read"The Onion Field" by Joseph Wambaugh. Hard to read, but excellent nonetheless.

May 10, 2012, 10:33 AM	#32
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	Its always nice to have a trained hostage. We always trained with a duress code to be used if taken hostage, usually you call your partner by your name, because sometimes an immediate reaction can end the situation safer. The trained hostage can help by placing their weight suddenly on the hostage taker, squirming, whatever to distract the hostage taker. I have trained my wife, and also for her to close her eyes as I do not want for her eyes to be damaged by the flash or debris that comes out with the bullet. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

May 10, 2012, 01:02 PM	#33
Vermonter Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2010 Posts: 962	Trained Hostage That is fantastic. Hadn't even considered the possibility. I assume the only good tatic here would be to go dead weight?

May 12, 2012, 08:13 PM	#34
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	yep. Also the doctrine of ensuing the hostage takers do now escape and the hostages are expendable was military doctrine in the 70's and 80's when we were dealing with the red brigade. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

May 13, 2012, 10:52 AM	#35
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Wow some great information here. I come from the other side of the equasion. I'm a trained hostage negotiator. Kraigway is dead on the money with his comments. As far as a trained hostage?... I attended a course with a pretty young female officer from plainfield NJ. I wont mention her name in defference to her family, and survivors. It may have been a month or two later she was taken hostage by some deranged gunman and had a gun to her head. In the course we took we learned how a police hostage could communicate with brother officers and make action plans. I watched as she was sending all the signals. I could see the desperation in her face... She was signalling "I'm going to drop... shoot this M-F. But the negotiator held off and chose to talk to the perp who shot Officer P through the head. This whole thing played out on TV that night. Of course they edited out her death. I guess the point of my story is this... In a hostage situation things are best left up to professionals. This is the Hostages best chance for survival. Hostage gaming is fine as well as fun. In a real situation a trained military, police, or citizen should be used. As well a hostage situation shooter should be trained as a hostage situation shooter. There is a difference. P/S the police hostage negotiator in the above situation didnt have a clue.

May 14, 2012, 12:07 AM	#36
SWglockmagnum Junior member Join Date: November 18, 2011 Posts: 101	you may want to seek out some tactical training instructors in your area. we have a few here. i only just recently learned about these, but plan to start taking classes as often as possible as well as getting back into martial arts. i've been out for about 3 years, though hold 4 blackbelts. i wish to continue with kung fu. it centers me... and i feel that if i go back to that, i'd be less inclined to use my CCW unless i had literally no other choice.

May 14, 2012, 10:40 PM	#37
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	I believe the odds of this situation occurring to me is about the same as winning the lottery, probably less so. I know of people who have won the lottery and have never heard of this happening in real life. Police may have to deal with it and i hope the 45 rounds they shot at the range last year pays off... __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

May 14, 2012, 11:10 PM	#38
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I just have Mrs Sport45 run around downrange with a cardboard cutout of a bad guy held behind her. She gets really upset if I hit her instead of the target. Just kidding, of course. I haven't graduated to tactical drills at the range. I just try to see how fast I can keep 3 to 5 rounds on a paper plate at 15 yards. I've watched IDPA matches and think that would be good training. Being a competition would add the adrenalin factor. Kind of like a HP rifle match. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

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