The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 24, 2011, 08:56 PM   #1
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,805
Does your Saiga do this to brass?



Apparently it's normal and built into the gun from the factory to differentiate between a military and civilian version of the gun. Just thought I'd share and find out if anyone else's Saiga does the same thing.

It resizes fine so not worried about that issue.
chris in va is offline  
Old January 24, 2011, 09:46 PM   #2
Ozzieman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 6,117
Is the vertical to horizontal scale to the photo correct?
I guess my question is what caliber is it. It looks to fat and short to be a 7.62 or .223.
Can you put a loaded round next to it or tell us what it is?
Saiga , 7.62х39 and .223 Rem.
Saiga-M, Saiga-М3, Saiga-MK , 7.62х39 and .223.
Saiga-5.6, Saiga-5.6S, 5.6х39 cartridge
Saiga-308, 7.62х51 (.308Win) cartridge
Saiga-9, 9x53R cartridge.
Ozzieman is offline  
Old January 25, 2011, 02:00 AM   #3
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,805
You're over-thinking this one. 7.62x39.
chris in va is offline  
Old January 25, 2011, 09:49 AM   #4
howlnmad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2009
Location: Harriman Tn
Posts: 424
I wish I could make the picture out a little better. What exactly are we seeing? Is it fluted?
howlnmad is offline  
Old January 25, 2011, 10:38 AM   #5
brokenfeather
Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2004
Location: Fox River Dells
Posts: 21
308 saiga case dents

I have a 308 which so far only puts a ding in the case much like the one on yours. In the side a about half way down the case. See the attached photo. See this link for more information http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?...1&#entry590176 another case denting link http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f...-shells-11546/
Hope this helps
Don

Last edited by brokenfeather; January 25, 2011 at 11:01 AM. Reason: adding a new link
brokenfeather is offline  
Old January 25, 2011, 10:43 AM   #6
.22lr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2007
Posts: 245
This is NOT normal

It appears to me that the shoulder-neck junction is incorrect.

7.62x39 diagram:


There is transition from the shoulder to the neck has a diameter of 8.60 millimeters. This should be the same case mouth (8.60 millimeters). A fired cartridge will expand slightly above these numbers, but the case mouth and the shoulder-neck junction should be almost identical.

It appears to me that your chamber was reamed incorrectly. Though I am not a gunsmith, a misreamed chamber is almost certainly dangerous. I would return the firearm as soon as possible and accept either an exchange or a refund, not a “repair”.

My theory is that the chamber was mistakenly cut for a 5.56x45mm chamber, the mistake was realized and then was redone with a 7.62x39mm reamer. Based off of available cartridge dimensions, I would guess that the bulge at the shoulder-neck junction would be approximately 9 millimeters.

5.56x45mm Diagram (the diagram was rather large to display here)

I believe your situation to be dangerous. You should not fire this rifle until it can be replaced. The brass is being severely overworked at the shoulder-neck junction and should be held suspect and probably discarded.
VR

~Matt

Last edited by .22lr; January 25, 2011 at 11:47 AM.
.22lr is offline  
Old January 25, 2011, 05:24 PM   #7
JD 500
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 110
Looks like that case has two shoulders ?

Any chance of a picture with that case, and a loaded round next to it ?

I'm no expert, but I would think at a minimum that condition will overwork the brass ( Assuming it's even safe ). It sure wouldn't help accuracy either.

I'm with .22lr, kinda makes me wonder if chamber was cut incorrectly.
JD 500 is offline  
Old January 25, 2011, 05:59 PM   #8
misskimo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2009
Location: Kotzebue Alaska
Posts: 120
Take it to a gun smith. Kinda looks like a machining mishap , But like you said. Sounds good to me. They made these guns for shooting brass one time and not for reloading. Steal cases and all
Glad my russian 1954 SKS doent do this,
misskimo is offline  
Old January 26, 2011, 12:06 AM   #9
Fullthrottle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2009
Posts: 280
This is normal with the Saiga! There was a groove built into the saiga's to provide a differance in civilian vs. russian gov't use! This is only for the Saiga 7.62x39, and not found in all other calibers. 7.62x39 is a russian military caliber.

Do some research on google or http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=7303 about this!

I do however reload for my Siaga in 7.62x39 and the dies iron this bulge out without problems!
__________________
When seconds count, why is help minutes away?
Fullthrottle is offline  
Old January 26, 2011, 11:22 AM   #10
.22lr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2007
Posts: 245
A warning for a bulged chamber is not in the Importer's manual nor on the manufacturer's website. Without a citation from the company or a government site, (undocumented internet lore is not an acceptable source) I would not accept this explanation. If this is truly a Russian Law, there should be a way to provide a link to a Russian govt website.

Also, I would never buy a rifle whose chamber was reamed incorrectly on purpose!

I stand behind my earlier post. This is not right. It may be dangerous. I would discard all cases fired through this rifle (whether the bulge is by design or not).

I'm ready to be wrong, but I have yet to find any verification of the "Russian gun control theory"

~Matt
.22lr is offline  
Old January 26, 2011, 10:42 PM   #11
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,805
I sent an email to the Ishmash factory contact and will post if/when I get a reply.
chris in va is offline  
Old January 27, 2011, 01:21 PM   #12
.22lr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2007
Posts: 245
Chris,
Excellent! I am more than willing to be proven wrong, and I would be thrilled if a definitive, documentable answer is found. I really hope the response from the maufacturer points to s specfic law that we can look up as a community.

That said, I still think the design is crazy and would discard any brass casings fired in that rifle. I would be too worried about leaving the neck in the chamber before other signs of brass failure appeared.


VR

~Matt
.22lr is offline  
Old January 27, 2011, 01:49 PM   #13
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by .22LR
I really hope the response from the maufacturer points to s specfic law that we can look up as a community.
Nobody, at least in this thread, said anything about a "law". It's supposedly a method of differentiating between military and civilian rifles. Maybe it is normal, maybe it isn't. I don't know why it would be a "law" though.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 02:31 PM   #14
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,805
Still haven't heard back from the factory, but I've reloaded these cases four times now with no problems. Many other Saiga owners report the same shoulder shape so I'm not worried about it.
chris in va is offline  
Old February 21, 2011, 10:54 PM   #15
cheezhed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2007
Posts: 302
My son has a saiga rifle that does that also and has never been a problem.
My understanding is also that this is to determine if the case was fired from a military or civilian rifle but having said that I have a much older saiga that does
not do that to the case nor does it shoots better or worse than my sons rifle. The front trunion on my rifle is slightly different from my sons so slight changes have been made over the years. I would not worry about this using steel cased ammo.The step in the case is a Russian requirement not American.
cheezhed is offline  
Old February 22, 2011, 12:01 AM   #16
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,196
Is it a step in the neck area of the chamber, or is the case being yanked out while there's still too much pressure in the chamber?
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

Last edited by Sport45; February 22, 2011 at 04:12 AM.
Sport45 is offline  
Old February 22, 2011, 04:08 AM   #17
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,805
I looked, there's definitely a deliberate step in the chamber.

I suspect it was designed to use steel case ammo, and when us zany Americans decide to reload brass ammo, it becomes more readily apparent as the metal is much softer. Just a theory.
chris in va is offline  
Old February 23, 2011, 02:16 AM   #18
prairiedoghunter
Member
 
Join Date: February 14, 2011
Posts: 19
My brother had a saiga that did the exact same thing, interesting design if they planned it that way, never had a problem with it except for terrible accuracy.
prairiedoghunter is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09791 seconds with 10 queries