Shipping rifle question

[chris in va]

I've bought and sold quite a few guns over the years, but this is a first for me.

Gentleman out of state wants my rifle. I contacted his FFL, they sent me a copy of their license in PDF format in my email. They have no problem receiving a gun from a private seller (unlike some shops).

What is needed at this point? I'm supposed to include a copy of my driver's license with the gun, but what about the FFL copy? This will be shipped from a UPS hub by the way.

[natman]

At one point in time an FFL copy had to be actually signed in non-black ink. Nowadays the ATF allows electronic scans of FFLs. You should be good to go.

[frick74]

True, they allowed faxes for years, and finally gave the OK for emails.

Also, you should do an instant check on the licensee if you have any concerns, you can do it at the ATF's website, and it will show you the status of the license.

[wally626]

You may want to bring a copy of the FFL license with you to the shipper, is not required but I have had them ask for one, might save some issues.

[chris in va]

Thanks guys. I'll check on the ATF site.

[Casimer]

You may want to bring a copy of the FFL license with you to the shipper, is not required but I have had them ask for one, might save some issues.

+1 - so have I, and the fact that the ATF allows electronic copies was of no interest to them. They demanded to see a paper copy - then they wanted to see the 'original', until I explained to the manager that such a requirement was obviously ridiculous because it would compel the FFL holder to send their 'original' FFL doc out to a bunch of strangers. Basically the people at the desk I was dealing with were being a PITA because a firearm was involved. But they were still within UPS policy. So a paper copy would probably be good to have, just in case.

[chris in va]

Good to know. I checked on the ATF site, he's listed and valid. Made a copy just in case.

[dogtown tom]

Casimer

+1 - so have I, and the fact that the ATF allows electronic copies was of no interest to them. They demanded to see a paper copy - then they wanted to see the 'original', until I explained to the manager that such a requirement was obviously ridiculous because it would compel the FFL holder to send their 'original' FFL doc out to a bunch of strangers. Basically the people at the desk I was dealing with were being a PITA because a firearm was involved. But they were still within UPS policy. So a paper copy would probably be good to have, just in case.

By providing more than is required by Federal law and the common carriers own policy you make it more difficult on the next guy. When you kowtow to the invented rules of an ignorant counter clerk you allow them to bully you into submission and they will continue to do the same to every gun owner in the future.

There is no Federal law, no ATF regulation, no USPS regulation, no FedEx policy and no UPS policy that requires you to show or include a copy of a Federal Firearms License when shipping a firearm. Period.

I ship several firearms each week and do not always use the same branch post office or FedEx location. I regularly get the clerk who thinks he knows the law or policy....and doesn't. I look at it as an educational opportunity and show them their own policies and how I am correct. Hopefully, they'll learn and not try to bully the next guy trying to ship a gun.

If you prefer taking a copy of the FFL with you when shipping....fine. But it's not required and only reinforces ignorance. I find it hysterical that gun owners love to demand our Second Amendment rights....yet will grovel at the feet of a UPS clerk.

[chris in va]

I did have one issue a couple years ago.

Brought my HiPoint carbine to a local stripmall shipping outlet to be sent FedEx back to the factory. They were a little flustered, and after a call to FedEx he stated the firing pin needed to be removed before they could ship.

I took it to the UPS hub and had no further problems.

[Casimer]

By providing more than is required by Federal law and the common carriers own policy you make it more difficult on the next guy. When you kowtow to the invented rules of an ignorant counter clerk you allow them to bully you into submission and they will continue to do the same to every gun owner in the future.

But that apparently is UPS's policy. IIRC it's not that you have to provide a FFL copy as a standard requirement, but that the agent has the right to request a copy and to refuse to ship if they aren't satisfied that the firearm is being shipped legally. Something like that. So you can argue with them, but they can still request the copy and hold you up. Which is what happened to me.

[dogtown tom]

Casimer

But that apparently is UPS's policy. IIRC it's not that you have to provide a FFL copy as a standard requirement, but that the agent has the right to request a copy and to refuse to ship if they aren't satisfied that the firearm is being shipped legally. Something like that. So you can argue with them, but they can still request the copy and hold you up. Which is what happened to me.

Nope...no such requirement in UPS Firearm Shipping Policy. As a matter of fact when shipping a firearm within ones own state of residence, both Federal law and UPS policy allows you to ship a firearm directly to the buyer...no FFL needed.
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res...ch_phr=handgun

Shipping Firearms

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms

Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States), law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law, and when such shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).
UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm, firearm mufflers and silencers are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms.)
UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment.
Firearms (including handguns) and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally.
UPS ReturnsSM Services are not available for packages containing firearms.



Follow These Packing Requirements
Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages tendered to UPS for delivery.
All firearms are to be shipped in new corrugated packaging which meets the UPS Single Wall Box Strength Guidelines. Medium and large UPS boxes may be used for smaller shipments being shipped via UPS Express service.
All firearms are to be packaged in accordance with UPS Packaging Guideline Specifications.
Ammunition must be shipped separately from packages that contain firearms (including handguns).
Ammunition will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments, and must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials.



About Documentation and Labeling
The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.
The labeling and outer box markings on all firearms shipments should not identify the contents as containing a firearm. Labeling, including the shipper's and consignee's abbreviated names on the shipping label or air shipping document, must be non-descriptive.



Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via, UPS Drop Boxes, UPS On-Call PickupSM, or at locations of The UPS Store® or any third party retailer.
When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for information regarding firearm shipments.