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Old September 2, 2017, 08:48 PM   #1
Deaf Smith
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Stopping a Terrorist Attack

"He’d been doing these commando-style moves to fight off the police, and he seemed well trained, but I grew up in Glasgow: it seemed natural to me that a wee forearm smash would sort it out. I’m not a street fighter, but I know how to look after myself."

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...MCNEWEML6619I2


Very good read!

Sometimes you don't have your favorite gun... or any gun.

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Old September 2, 2017, 10:22 PM   #2
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Good lessons:

1. Know your capabilities.
2. When action is required, act.
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Old September 3, 2017, 06:19 AM   #3
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I have learned a funny thing about the human condition: blokes that you think you can count on sometimes fold up and turn tail. And vice versa. And not every time.
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Old September 3, 2017, 11:14 AM   #4
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I train bjj and muay thai...and man are they a wake up call to your ego. A lot of people come to class thinking they can fight because they trained XYZ martial art or they were in some special forces group like the rangers/seals and they are just man handled like a rag doll. The turnover rate is high. Probably like 80% of people do not come back for a 2nd class and probably like 90% aren't there after a month. But if you want to learn how to handle yourself sign up for a good martial art that is trained at 100% resistance. Too many 8 yr old black belts out there that couldn't fight themselves out of a wet paper bag.
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Old September 3, 2017, 12:22 PM   #5
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But this guy just grew up in Glasgow. No fancy Ninja moves.. probably more like Krav Maga.

Anything that has 80 percent drop out rate is, well, not wise. One is training defend oneself, not get injured to where they cannot defend themselves.

And I say that with over 40 years of the martial arts.

The key is not the type of training, it's the aggressiveness and initiative to actually DO SOMETHING, RIGHT NOW, to stop the attacks. The guy, Clarkson, got right into it, quickly, with simple effective technique.

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Old September 3, 2017, 01:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
... a wee forearm smash would sort it out ...
I like it.

Thanks Deaf.

Yes, folks, sometimes it might be just as much the Will, as the Way, that may matter.
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Old September 4, 2017, 02:52 PM   #7
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Know your capabilities is the first step. Then increase them.
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Old September 4, 2017, 06:09 PM   #8
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A gun is not the only weapon, it is merely a labor-saving device.

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Old September 4, 2017, 06:26 PM   #9
fastbolt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James K View Post
A gun is not the only weapon, it is merely a labor-saving device.

Jim
Never heard it put quite that way ... but I won't gainsay you, either.

Lots of folks prefer to put as much emphasis on gear as possible, meaning things you can put in and take out of a box.

The "software driven" things comprising knowledge, skills and mindset are less easily quantified, or able to be held up as a physical "thing" for everyone to admire.

Most people (without deformity or physical infirmity) can form a clenched fist, but that doesn't mean the ability to clench their hands into fists puts them on an equal footing when it comes to using them as bodily weapons, does it?
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Old September 4, 2017, 06:49 PM   #10
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"In short, the Way of the Ichi school is the spirit of winning, whatever the weapon and whatever its size." ‘The Book of Five Rings’ (Go Rin no Sho) by Miyamoto Musashi

In short, the spirit is to win whatever the method. But, having superior arms sure don't hurt. Clarkson took out one terrorist with an elbow strike, imagine what he could have done with a good firearm and training. For you see, he definitely has the guts!

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Old September 4, 2017, 07:06 PM   #11
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I train bjj and muay thai...and man are they a wake up call to your ego. A lot of people come to class thinking they can fight because they trained XYZ martial art or they were in some special forces group like the rangers/seals and they are just man handled like a rag doll. The turnover rate is high. Probably like 80% of people do not come back for a 2nd class and probably like 90% aren't there after a month. But if you want to learn how to handle yourself sign up for a good martial art that is trained at 100% resistance. Too many 8 yr old black belts out there that couldn't fight themselves out of a wet paper bag.
Couldn't agree more.

Whatever you train in needs to be street-effective, and it needs to be hard training with realism, meaning with an equally motivated partner for an opponent. And that also means ZERO time spent on useless stuff, like kata b.s. or sitting on the dojo mat staring at your navel for 45 minutes every class in order to perfect your inner 'ki'.

I took several different MAs when (a lot) younger, including tae quon do, judo, and a "hard" style of aikido. Those were all that were offered back then ( at least in my area).

If I had to do it over again - starting, say, at age 18 - I'd definitely get into MMA, or something like BJJ, as well as boxing. I also really wanted to try Wing Chun (for the blocks and traps), but no schools were located in my area.

That said, certain moves from judo are actually street applicable, as is the body control you learn. So too are some joint locks and arm-bar techniques from Aikido, but you need a lot more stuff, like strikes and blocks and grappling experience, to make them effective. Especially necessary is the ground fighting stuff, because sooner or later all real fights go to the ground, ... except apparently in Chuck Norris flics and t.v. shows.

You also need to get your nose bloodied once or twice to understand what a punch feels like and how to take it and stay in the fight, and also what it feels like to be on the wrong end of a kimora, where your elbow is about to be snapped.

Last edited by agtman; September 4, 2017 at 07:12 PM.
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Old September 5, 2017, 02:13 AM   #12
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The Glaswegian involved here, just got involved, the Police managed to pepper spray him? And he still flattened this person.

I am from Liverpool UK, and we have an affinity with Jocks. We both have a particular move, the head butt! But describe it differently.
We Scousers call it a Liverpool Kiss, Jocks say, The Glasgow Hand Shake!

Same move, you bring the forehead forward, use the strength of the neck, and speed gives the strike power. The spot you aim for, the bridge of the nose.

When as a kid you have only a soccer ball (Football in the UK) to play with, a plain wall, end of a building? And you can keep the ball in the air for ages.

Also, strengthen's the neck.

I spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool Clubs. Still, have a straight nose!

Had problems at the door, mostly locals, with a few pints in them.
Never had a problem with a Jock, ever.

Fights do not have wind ups as in the USA, IE two men (Kids?) come out of a Bar, bad language, throw a few punches, may be a nose bleed?

A quick description of a three man altercation, two of them, and one of me.

A Thursday night, normally a quiet night, actually my first night, The Blue Angel, on Seal Street. My Buddy and I had moved on from The Cavern Club, of Beatles fame. I had been at the cavern for 4 years, 1960, till 1964.
Got stabbed twice there. Unusual really, mostly teeny boppers.

This night at the Blue Angel, Larry had gone down stairs, where the band and bar were, for a couple of soft drinks for us.

Most of the crowd were Liverpool University people, Uni scarf, Jeans, and sweaters. Of course, I did not know any of them, when I asked for members cards? "Tony knows me" He was a crippled chap, walked with two sticks, the ones you put your arms through. Tony sat at a little desk, about 4 yds into the passage leading in from the Street.

He could arrange for visitors to be signed in, not a big deal. Normally!

Two men, definitely not Uni types! We're in front of his desk " Mick, these two gentlemen are not members, and they are not with a member"

One over 6ft, nasty looking, skinny both in suits. His Buddy (I would have said, Mate at that time) my height 5'10" but heavy set. Wearing thick black rimmed glasses. You know the type, TROUBLE!

Larry still not back from (probably chatting up the Bar Maid) getting our soft drinks.

"Sorry Lads, no one to sign you in, you can't come in," Mr. Glasses said "We are already in, aren't we" at the time I wore rimless glasses. So I took them off, slid them into the case in my Jacket Pocket.

He grabbed his specs, said Two can play at that game. My straight left hit his nose, via the glasses! He went down, streaming blood, when we threw him in the Street, he had bits of lens stuck in his face.

Skinny now stepped forward, over the sleeping beauty! Glancing down as he stepped over him... MISTAKE! My right cross put him into the wall, the follow up left hook, put him behind the door.

Where he seemed to almost crouch, I hit him with lefts, and rights, till my arms just about fell off. "HE CAN NOT FALL DOWN MICK!" Tony was yelling.
His coat was caught on the big hinge, that supported the steel door.

By this time Larry had arrived! So we pitched them down the three steps into the Street. We did not call the Police, they left after a while? I reckon.

Fri night, each Uni person, Boys, and Girls. Came in, cards in hands, held up, "Hi Mike, Hi Mike" like a bunch of parrots.
One night and they all knew my name, stayed there a year, then left with the Family for Australia.

Larry was ex SAS, I did not find out, till he passed away, in 2007. I was living in Toronto then, with my second Wife. And the final one, 25 years now.
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Old September 5, 2017, 06:40 AM   #13
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Great story, Brit. Congrats on the longevity with the second wife.
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Old September 5, 2017, 10:02 AM   #14
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You also need to get your nose bloodied once or twice to understand what a punch feels like and how to take it and stay in the fight
Exactly. Its not fun but its very important. Things like this are why there is an 80%+ drop out rate. Most people just want to break boards and tell their friends they are doing MMA. Its really bad when they get a tatoo after like a week of training and then aren't there 2 months later lol. I see that kind of stuff all of the time. Having said that, any martial art is effective as long as its trained correctly (full resistance/real). But yea your chances of a good MMA/BJJ/Boxing school are much higher than finding a good TKD school. But there are good TKD schools out there, its just a rarity these days as most want to please soccer moms.

We also train gun offense/defense (and knife) and that is really interesting too. At around 20 ft, if you are carrying IWB or pocket there is no way for you to draw and fire if I charge and take you down. I will have you in side control/mounted before your gun is out. OWB its much more doable but that dimishes as the person gets closer. My instructor (who was military instructor for a number of years and still does self defense classes for them) basically shows us how important gun retention during a struggle really is. Its not something I used to think about when I started carrying. If someone is 20 ft from you and charges you, grabs you from behind, mounts you etc, your gun becomes a liability. Learning how to escape and avoid these kind of positions become critical to SD and should be part of all training for people who CCW, except for those with physical limitations...but heck we have 70 yr old guys training with us, so age isn't an excuse. The next issue you have with all of this is how many of us would be justified in drawing our pistol if someone is more than 20 ft from us? Its something to think about. There are no right answers but man its crazy when you start thinking about all of this.
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Old September 5, 2017, 10:20 AM   #15
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Overwhelming offensive action as is discussed by the vigilante in this case will almost always be more effective than... well virtually no offensive action.

Style points aside the discussion of martial art A being better than martial art B is not paramount. In this particular case an aggressor who was willing to commit fully to the attack with little regard to the negative impact it would have on the opposing party was able to win.

I expect that is the case in most situations.
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Old September 5, 2017, 11:54 AM   #16
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* * * We also train gun offense/defense (and knife) and that is really interesting too. At around 20 ft, if you are carrying IWB or pocket there is no way for you to draw and fire if I charge and take you down. I will have you in side control/mounted before your gun is out. * * *
Interesting point, which reminded me that since bad guys carry concealed weapons as well, some of the more "street-effective" MA groups teach gun/knife disarm techniques at the higher levels of training (usually above brown belt, or the equivalent).

Remember, disarms can work both ways.

Cops, for example, receive pretty intensive instruction (at least in the Academy, where I've seen it) in gun-retention techniques and repelling a bad guy's disarm attempts. They do not, however, get any instruction (to my knowledge) on using empty-handed disarm techniques against a bad guy who has a handgun or knife now pointed in the cop's face because he was quicker on the "draw." The distances I'm talking about here are from bad-breath (right on you) to about arms length, not 20-feet out.

If you drill enough with a role-playing partner using those red rubber "simulation" guns and knives, understand the timing and use a bit of distraction, weapons disarms are do-able as part of a street-effective self-defense repertoire.

This can be life-saving when you happen to be caught unarmed at the moment (possibly because you're traveling in a non-permissive jurisdiction), or you simply can't get to your concealed pistol in time because the BG "got the drop on you."
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Old September 5, 2017, 02:47 PM   #17
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Vigilante? No, Mr. Clarkson was no vigilante. He was not there to dispense justice or retribution or anything like that. He was a 'concerned subject'.

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Old September 8, 2017, 01:27 PM   #18
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Of course, martial arts instructors labor under a handicap - they can't/won't seriously injure the trainee who is, after all, their source of income. Nor will they allow the trainee to injure them. On the street, the mind set has to be "do ANYTHING to protect yourself." Period. (I have deliberately omitted mention of right or wrong, criminal or victim - those are moral or legal judgments, not pertinent to the fighting mind set.)

At 84, with the onset of Parkinson's disease, I obviously am not going to do much in the way of self defense, but I would still do whatever I could as long as I could. Folks who had "been there, done that" confirm what I have always believed. In a life or death situation, you have to not just be willing but determined to do the maximum damage to your opponent - by any means, in any way, with any weapon, at any time.

Even if the fight is over, and your opponent is down and helpless, you may need to make sure he can't get you later. That is not what we should do, not what the law requires we do, not what religion teaches that we must do. But it is what we may have to do to stay alive.

Most of us get our ideas of fighting from the movies or TV. But in real life/death there are no scripts, no rules, no directors. No one calls "cut" and we all go to a good restaurant and hoist a few cool ones. The living remain living, the dead remain dead; your only goal is to do anything you can to be on the right side of that line.

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Old September 8, 2017, 01:51 PM   #19
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* * * We also train gun offense/defense (and knife) and that is really interesting too. At around 20 ft, if you are carrying IWB or pocket there is no way for you to draw and fire if I charge and take you down. I will have you in side control/mounted before your gun is out. * * *
I hope you are willing to bet your life on it. But it is good information and CCLers should practice fast drawing, also have run scenarios on when they are prepared to draw, and have at least some minimal practice on body drawing while someone is attempting to grapple with them (as AGTMan noted).
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Old September 8, 2017, 02:47 PM   #20
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I saw a t-shirt that said

To old to fight
to slow to run
just shoot and be done with it
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Old September 8, 2017, 09:48 PM   #21
Deaf Smith
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* * * We also train gun offense/defense (and knife) and that is really interesting too. At around 20 ft, if you are carrying IWB or pocket there is no way for you to draw and fire if I charge and take you down. I will have you in side control/mounted before your gun is out. * * *
That is incorrect information. The 'Tueller drill', which is where the 7 yard 'guestimation' comes from is false. It presumes certain things. 1) the attacker can move at a certain speed. 2) the defender can only draw at a certain speed and cannot move. 3) there is no 'tell', as in telegraph, of one's intentions, and 4) the attack happens in a vacuum (that is it just 'happens'.)

First off the attacker may not be able to run toward the defender quickly. Second the defender may be quite quick (you would be amazed how fast a 2 inch J .38 can be drawn from an appendix position IWB and FIRED FROM THE HIP). Also the defender might very well move obliquely to one side. And then as the altercation unfolds the defender, if trained, should be able to see signs the attacker is about to advance. Same goes for the defender going from condition 'yellow' to condition 'orange' as the attacker postures before the attack.

See in real life such attacks don't just happen out of the blue and unless the defender has his eyes glued to his cell phone will texting they will see it a-coming.

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Old September 9, 2017, 08:23 AM   #22
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Also some of played hand egg and tackle the aggressor first out of habit.
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Old September 9, 2017, 01:46 PM   #23
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* * * The 'Tueller drill', which is where the 7 yard 'guestimation' comes from is false. It presumes certain things. 1) the attacker can move at a certain speed. 2) the defender can only draw at a certain speed and cannot move. 3) there is no 'tell', as in telegraph, of one's intentions, and 4) the attack happens in a vacuum (that is it just 'happens'.)
If you're referring to the "21-foot" rule (or now, as several LE firearms instructors have told me, the 30-foot), the primary assumption is none of those factors (1-4).

The primary assumption is based on the fear that once inside 21-ft (or, apparently as taught to police rookies now, inside 30-ft), an attacker charging an officer with an edged weapon will be able to kill or inflict a mortal (non-survivable) wound before the officer's gunfire can incapacitate him, at least short of a direct head-shot, which (per L.E. trainers) 99.9% of your average street cops will not be able to make under the stress, adrenaline rush, and quickness of the encounter (occurring in literal seconds).

That fear and the assumption, in turn, is drawn from case study after case study in which officers have been severely cut or killed with edged weapons, and the distances from which the attack began were measured, and then compared with the same data in other cases where the officer killed his attacker before he could reach the officer. It's about distance and reaction time.

And it's not just traditional knives, but other sharp metally things like field machetes, "Ninja"/Kung Fu swords, fireplace pokers, etc. It's from that historical data base, which L.E. instructors collect and study, that this theoretical "bright line" of 21-feet/30-feet is derived.

It's meant to be what it is - another training tool, following threat identification ("He's charging at me with a knife"), to enhance the officer's reaction time under stress, and hence his chances of survival.

Last edited by agtman; September 9, 2017 at 06:31 PM.
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Old September 9, 2017, 03:36 PM   #24
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Incorrect again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og28YV8DUxw

https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org...rill-revisited

Nothing to do with fear. It was to show how far one can be and still be a danger with a knife (or club, or actually any weapon) and measuring the reaction time of the defender .vs. the time it took the attacker to close the distance.

It was 'how close is to close' to protect oneself.

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Old September 9, 2017, 06:43 PM   #25
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Incorrect again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og28YV8DUxw
https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org...rill-revisited

Nothing to do with fear. It was to show how far one can be and still be a danger with a knife (or club, or actually any weapon) and measuring the reaction time of the defender .vs. the time it took the attacker to close the distance. It was 'how close is to close' to protect oneself.
Still wrong, my dudenal. Please re-read post #23 above. Apparently, you're relying on goofy internet sources where, of course, everything is known except what's been validated.

The edged weapon/21-foot rule is fully examined in Urey Patrick's well-written book below. This, of course, assumes reading comprehension on your part.

https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Other.../dp/1594608547
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