45-70 405 grain Remington Core-Lokt for Bear Defense

[Smith and Wesson]

If you were hiking in mountains in Wyoming or Montana with grizzly bears in them would you feel comfortable with a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun loaded with 405 grain Core-Lokt ammo loaded at 1350 fps (I'm just asking about the ammo, not the rifle)? Keep in mind that these are Rocky Mountain Grizzlies, not huge Alaskan coastal brown bears. I know there are better choices such as a Cast Core loaded a bit hotter, but this load is low recoiling and cheaper than other loads. So would you trust these to kill a bear if you had to?

[natman]

If I were going to carry a Marlin 45-70 for grizzly defense, it wouldn't be loaded with soft loaded factory ammo that defers to weak black powder guns.

I'd have that baby stoked up with some 400 grain Swift A-frames @ 1800 fps. If a grizzly charges, I certainly won't care that it's more expensive (How often are you going to shoot a grizzly in self defense?) or that it kicks more.

[Colt46]

But, it's still pretty stout and ought to penetrate well enough.

[WIN1886]

I have used this factory load and have used the Remington 405 grain soft point in handloads just a wee bit hotter than the factory load.....they are easy on the shoulder and have had complete penetration on whitetail deer but for Grizzly , I would prefer a hotter load with a tougher constructed bullet for my peace of mind ! No vote from someone that has never had an encounter with a Grizzly !

[tahunua001]

really? that is one of the strongest, big bores, out there and you picked one of the heaviest bullet options... it'll kill anything on any continent in the world.

[40-82]

The velocity doesn't bother me. That said, I have never used the Remington jacketed soft point 405. I always used my own cast bullets. Unless someone comes up with personal experience to make me believe that this bullet is prone to failure, I'd be inclined to think it will work.

[Barnacle Brad]

I think you should do a bullet test on a stack of phone books or some buckets filled with water and post the results. I would much rather see pictures of a nicely mushroomed bullet and know how deep it penetrated the media, than trust poll results.

It would be more fun too...

[kilimanjaro]

The Polar Bear exhibit at the zoo should give you a good test. Could test several loads given a proper number of bears.

[Water-Man]

You'd be better off loading it with hardcast ammo.

[jeager106]

My only experience with the 45-70 was a 300 pound black bear.
One shot with the 350 grain Hornady, big entrance hole, much bigger exit hole & one very dead bear that only gave one big jump & piled up d.r.t.
Handloaded to about 2100 f.p.s. range was maybe 45 yards.
Still have a Marlin 1895 now legal for Ohio deer season.
For griz I'd want the 405 jacketed s.p. at 1800 f.p.s.
Like was said you probably won't ever need to use it so recoil should not be an issue.

[mete]

jeager, yes that load will do it !!!
For big bears I would use premium bullet for better penetration or a hard cast SWC or one with a large meplat.You can buy hot loads or make them but remember that they can bite at both ends ! The 45-70 is effective not from velocity but because it punches a large hole !

[jmr40]

really? that is one of the strongest, big bores, out there and you picked one of the heaviest bullet options... it'll kill anything on any continent in the world.

One huge misconception about 45-70 is that it was a successful hunting round used to help exterminate American Buffalo. This is false. The load you are looking at was designed for the US Army to use during the Indian wars in 1873. The round was never used as a buffalo round, but to shoot native Americans. Most Buffalo were dead by the 1860's. The 45-70 came out in 1873 and laws were passed in 1874-75 banning buffalo hunting to save the handful left.

Hunters of the day found the load on the light side for anything other than deer. The 45-70 was basically dead by 1890, and rounds like the 30-40 Kraig, 30-30, 7X57 Mauser were considered much better choices, even for larger game.

45-70 lay dormant and basically unused from about 1890 to 1973 when Marlin brought back the 1895 rifle and used some artistic advertising to make the round seem more colorful than it really had been. The round has probably taken more game in the 21st century than the 19th and 20th combined.

With modern hot loads in a rifle designed for them the 45-70 is a decent enough rifle. Even then very much over rated. For inland bear that load would be about minimum for me. There are much better choices. Would rather use a 308 on large Coastal bears than that particular load.

[40-82]

Very interesting that you would put the 30-30 and the 7X57 ahead of the 45-70. Either of the smaller cartridges should do the job if you put the bullet in exactly the right place. I can't say that I would personally want to be facing something large and aggressive at close range with either of those cartridges if I could have picked up a 45-70 instead.

[Jim Watson]

One report says the Southern Herd was hunted heavily from 1874 til 1878, the Northern Herd from 1880 til 1884. In 1882 there were 200,000 hides shipped out of the Dakota Territory. Ten years and there was scarce a buffalo to be seen. That was government policy, to impoverish the Plains Indians and make them dependent on reservations.

In the 1870s, before the .45-70 got on the market, the Sharps and Remington .44 calibers were popular. There were a good number of .50-70s available as surplus replaced by the 1873 .45-70 and commercial, too. Buffalo Bill Cody's favorite rifle was Lucrecia Borgia, a .50-70 Trapdoor Springfield.

But in the late years of buffalo hunting, the Sharps Rifle Company announced that the .45 caliber had proven so superior that they would quit making .40, .44, and .50 rifles except on special order. Not all were .45-70, (As loaded for Sharps, it was really a .45-75) though. The .45-2.4", .45-2.6", and .45- 2 7/8" were popular. (.45-90, .45-100, and .45-110 in Winchester parlance, although the powder charges were not standardized at that, so it is safer to refer to them by case length, the .45-70 being .45-2.1")

[coldbeer]

There's so few of these beautiful animals left in the lower 48 states that I wouldn't worry about running into them. It would be a shame to have to kill one though and you'd probably have a lot of explaining to do, but I voted yes,. A 405 grain bullet at 1300fps should be sufficient.

[mete]

That Core-Lokt is actually a premium bullet .There may be better ones but it's not like some of the plain JHPs .I've used the plain ones for deer and at less than 100 yds they were terrible ! An entrance hole of 2" and exit hole of 1" is much too fragile .One the other hand a Swift A-frame or Barnes are far better.

[kilimanjaro]

For bear defense, your rifle should be short, quick second shot, and without a scope. You're not hunting, the bear is.

[Wyosmith]

Well I live near them, and hunt with them around every year. I do pay attention to these details.
I'd agree that a good LBT type cast bullet is going to be the best, but the regular 405 grain is ok too. It’s a soft bullet and opens up even on deer, so its penetration is not as good as a flat nose cast bullet or a premium bullet like a Barnes X. But let's look at facts not theory here.

A 7/8 oz 12 gauge slug weights 383 grains. The old loads were about 1400 FPS a 405 grain bullet at nearly the same velocity is going to be at least as good if not better in penetration. The old 7/8 slug is not the best at going deep, but it's well thought of among those that have had to kill big bears with them.
So yes, I'd be OK with that ammo. As others have said, it is not as good as you can get, but I am pretty sure it would be good enough.

[Wyosmith]

There's so few of these beautiful animals left in the lower 48 states that I wouldn't worry about running into them.
Coldbeer, who told you that?

You don't hunt around where I do, that's for sure.

I see them on almost every elk hunt, and I have NEVER ONE TIME been hunting for deer, elk or moost in those mountains where I have not seen their tracks in very large numbers.

We have a LOT of them where I hunt. Few black bear but lots of grizzlies.

[tahunua001]

One huge misconception about 45-70 is that it was a successful hunting round used to help exterminate American Buffalo. This is false. The load you are looking at was designed for the US Army to use during the Indian wars in 1873. The round was never used as a buffalo round, but to shoot native Americans. Most Buffalo were dead by the 1860's. The 45-70 came out in 1873 and laws were passed in 1874-75 banning buffalo hunting to save the handful left

I never said anything about buffalo extermination. I was aware of the differences in dates, the 45-70 was originally designed for smokeless powder if I recall correctly which would have made it far too late to kill a few million buffalo, however several people I know use it as a go to elk rifle and if it'll kill an elk at distance it'll definitely stop a grizzly at close range. heck I've seen elk finished off with roundball fired from a 45-70, close range of course but a 405 jacketed slug ought to be pretty dang useful in comparison.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

There's "kill", and then there's "kill quickly enough to not be killed yourself". You asked the former, not the latter, so I voted yes.

[mavracer]

It's funny lots of folk think a hot loaded 44 mag or 45 colt is plenty for this task and yet some feel the need for more than standard 45/70 fodder.

[WIN1886]

Man , I just love 45-70 threads regardless the topic ! I know the 405 grain factory load is enough for whitetail deer and most black bear because I have used it on this game and it did the job extremely well ( all one shot kills and most were quick ) ! This is a very mild load in comparison to what I normally use in my Ruger #1 and even in my 1886 Winchester extra light rifle ! I do know I wouldn't worry about a tad more recoil or expense on ammo that was better suited for the job and grizzly protection would rank right up there as numero uno ! I will listen to folks such as Wyosmith that actually have experience around the bigger bear but as for myself , I can't recommend a load on grizzly when I have never been in a predicament to shoot one nor the desire to unless I had absolutely no choice !

[coldbeer]

Coldbeer, who told you that?

You don't hunt around where I do, that's for sure.

I see them on almost every elk hunt, and I have NEVER ONE TIME been hunting for deer, elk or moost in those mountains where I have not seen their tracks in very large numbers.

We have a LOT of them where I hunt. Few black bear but lots of grizzlies

Well I guess it all depends on how many you consider is a lot. I don't consider 600 grizzlies in Yellowstone and another 800 in Montana to be very many.

[Jim Watson]

the 45-70 was originally designed for smokeless powder if I recall correctly

You do not.
The .45-70 came out in 1873 and stayed with black until shortly before the .30 Krag was adopted.