Trench Warfare

Tidewater_Kid · April 18, 2014, 04:49 PM

I was at a museum today and they had a display of WWI items. This trench rifle was in that display. It's interesting in that it has a sliding charger bridge. I have never seen the remote firing mechanism before. Pretty neat.

TK

gyvel · April 18, 2014, 05:20 PM

That is a No. 1 Mk I (or No. 1 Mk I***) rifle which was obsoleted for army use by the time WWI started. The No. 1 Mk I*** rifles were used mostly by the Royal Navy. It is possible that some units may have been equipped with them, but by and large, the majority of Tommys were issued No. 1 Mk III rifles. I should mention that the original No. 1 Mk I rifles were simply referred to as SMLE Mk 1. The use of "No." did not take place until the revision of the numbering system in the 1920s.

The slidiing charger bridge was originally a modification to long Lee-Enfield rifles of various patterns, but the designation of Mk II.P was eventually established for all such converted guns. It was carried over as a feature of the first Short Lee-Enfield (SMLE) No. 1 Mk I, first introduced in 1902.

The subsequent No. 1 Mk III's and III*'s were manufactured with a one piece charger bridge obviating the necessity for the sliding piece on the bolt head, and many No.1 Mk I's were later converted to the one piece charger bridge (Mk III standards).

While the No.1 Mk I's are somewhat rare themselves, the trench periscope is quite a rare item.

The fact that the museum specimen is wire wrapped indicates that it was used for grenade launching purposes.

All in all, a very interesting display.

Tidewater_Kid · April 18, 2014, 05:59 PM

I have a BSA 1907 No.1 MK I*** with the sliding charger bridge, which is why I was drawn to this one!

TK

sgms · April 18, 2014, 08:46 PM

Remote operation = not exposing yourself, some pictures of them in use.

Jo6pak · April 19, 2014, 11:07 AM

What was the museum, and where is it?

I may be taking a motorcycle tour to Barber in Birmingham this summer. I think this museum would make another nice stop.

Tidewater_Kid · April 19, 2014, 11:12 AM

The museum is located in Anniston Alabama. It's not an all day trip, but you could easily spend a pleasant couple of hours there.

They had many unique pieces I had never seen before.

http://www.bermanmuseum.org/

TK

Jo6pak · April 19, 2014, 11:17 AM

Cool, that's not too far from Birmingham. Thanks for the info.
Shorter stops are always nice along with the main attractions. And sometimes the side-trips become a highlight of a tour.

James K · April 19, 2014, 12:06 PM

There are two variations here of the trench rifle. One has the rifle mounted in a brace with sighting through a periscope, but the rifle has to be pulled down or the soldier reach up to work the bolt.

The other, shown by the OP, has an arrangement by which the bolt can be worked with the rifle pointed over the parapet, a much faster and easier arrangement. Neither type was used extensively, though they often featured in photos of the day and are pictured in most books about WWI rifles. (The U.S. had an arrangement for the M1903 similar to that in the first post; IIRC it was experimental and never used in combat.)

Jim

Mk VII · April 23, 2014, 02:35 PM

another one this time using a Charger Loading Lee-Enfield. The dummy trigger with a wire usually produces a poor pull-off.

Mk VII · April 23, 2014, 02:37 PM

This one requires you to use the wrong finger to trigger it - awkward.
The field of view through all these devices is limited. Sniping was much better done with conventional rifles from properly concealed positions outside the trench.

Mk VII · April 23, 2014, 02:40 PM

All stocks of Short rifles of whatever pattern were culled from the Navy and anyone else who had them to send to the Front.

James K · April 23, 2014, 08:19 PM

MK VII is correct. Those gadgets (the best name for them) were more common on the pages of the Illustrated London News than they ever were in the trenches. (Note the pristine uniforms and neat trenches pictured.)

Perhaps part of the idea was to pretend to the home folks that there was a way Tommy could shoot Jerry without putting himself in any danger. If that idea ever prevailed, the Somme put paid to it.

Jim

April 19, 2014, 11:07 AM	#5
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	What was the museum, and where is it? I may be taking a motorcycle tour to Barber in Birmingham this summer. I think this museum would make another nice stop. __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.

April 19, 2014, 11:17 AM	#7
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	Cool, that's not too far from Birmingham. Thanks for the info. Shorter stops are always nice along with the main attractions. And sometimes the side-trips become a highlight of a tour. __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.

April 18, 2014, 05:20 PM	#2
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	That is a No. 1 Mk I (or No. 1 Mk I*) rifle which was obsoleted for army use by the time WWI started. The No. 1 Mk I* rifles were used mostly by the Royal Navy. It is possible that some units may have been equipped with them, but by and large, the majority of Tommys were issued No. 1 Mk III rifles. I should mention that the original No. 1 Mk I rifles were simply referred to as SMLE Mk 1. The use of "No." did not take place until the revision of the numbering system in the 1920s. The slidiing charger bridge was originally a modification to long Lee-Enfield rifles of various patterns, but the designation of Mk II.P was eventually established for all such converted guns. It was carried over as a feature of the first Short Lee-Enfield (SMLE) No. 1 Mk I, first introduced in 1902. The subsequent No. 1 Mk III's and III*'s were manufactured with a one piece charger bridge obviating the necessity for the sliding piece on the bolt head, and many No.1 Mk I's were later converted to the one piece charger bridge (Mk III standards). While the No.1 Mk I's are somewhat rare themselves, the trench periscope is quite a rare item. The fact that the museum specimen is wire wrapped indicates that it was used for grenade launching purposes. All in all, a very interesting display.

April 18, 2014, 05:59 PM	#3
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	I have a BSA 1907 No.1 MK I*** with the sliding charger bridge, which is why I was drawn to this one! TK

April 19, 2014, 11:12 AM	#6
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	The museum is located in Anniston Alabama. It's not an all day trip, but you could easily spend a pleasant couple of hours there. They had many unique pieces I had never seen before. http://www.bermanmuseum.org/ TK

April 19, 2014, 12:06 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There are two variations here of the trench rifle. One has the rifle mounted in a brace with sighting through a periscope, but the rifle has to be pulled down or the soldier reach up to work the bolt. The other, shown by the OP, has an arrangement by which the bolt can be worked with the rifle pointed over the parapet, a much faster and easier arrangement. Neither type was used extensively, though they often featured in photos of the day and are pictured in most books about WWI rifles. (The U.S. had an arrangement for the M1903 similar to that in the first post; IIRC it was experimental and never used in combat.) Jim

April 23, 2014, 02:35 PM	#9
Mk VII Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2000 Location: England Posts: 455	another one this time using a Charger Loading Lee-Enfield. The dummy trigger with a wire usually produces a poor pull-off.

April 23, 2014, 02:37 PM	#10
Mk VII Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2000 Location: England Posts: 455	This one requires you to use the wrong finger to trigger it - awkward. The field of view through all these devices is limited. Sniping was much better done with conventional rifles from properly concealed positions outside the trench.

April 23, 2014, 02:40 PM	#11
Mk VII Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2000 Location: England Posts: 455	All stocks of Short rifles of whatever pattern were culled from the Navy and anyone else who had them to send to the Front.

April 23, 2014, 08:19 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	MK VII is correct. Those gadgets (the best name for them) were more common on the pages of the Illustrated London News than they ever were in the trenches. (Note the pristine uniforms and neat trenches pictured.) Perhaps part of the idea was to pretend to the home folks that there was a way Tommy could shoot Jerry without putting himself in any danger. If that idea ever prevailed, the Somme put paid to it. Jim