Do we need Hi-Capacity in everyday Carry? - Page 4

Lohman446 · October 29, 2019, 06:34 PM

For the record from my perspective predestination is supposed to allow one to face threat without fear and make a good accounting of ones self regardless of outcome. I also lack the skill set to effectively use high capacity in most situations. A protracted fire fight or multiple attackers is going to quickly highlight my shortcomings.

Forte S+W · October 29, 2019, 07:50 PM

If the firearm that you carry is what you are most proficient with and best suited to defend yourself with, then obviously you've made the right decision.

I was just mistaken and worried that perhaps you merely opted to carry what you do based solely upon your beliefs, regardless of if you could perhaps carry something more, and that you might be limiting yourself. Please pardon my presumption.

bamaranger · October 30, 2019, 12:00 AM

I am surprised by the number of folks commenting regards comfort, appearance for their choice of firearms, and the belief that they can perceive or predict where bad things may happen to them.

Astounded may be an even better word.

**JohnKSa** · October 30, 2019, 12:19 AM

Quote:

I am surprised by the number of folks commenting regards comfort, appearance for their choice of firearms, and the belief that they can perceive or predict where bad things may happen to them.

It's interesting, isn't it. It's also very human.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=552943

davidsog · October 30, 2019, 05:07 AM

Quote:

I also lack the skill set to effectively use high capacity in most situations.

Huh?

The nice thing about high capacity is it shifts probability in a direction favorable to you.

Lastly, it sounds like you need to train more.

Pond, James Pond · October 30, 2019, 05:27 AM

My view is you don't need it until you need it.

In other words, there is no way of knowing as encounters requiring your firearm to be drawn, with the knowledge it may have to be used, do not fit a formula nor pattern beyond, maybe, there being a criminal element involved.

You may never need your gun.
You may only need to draw.
You may only need to fire once.
You may need to fire everything and still run for your life. Who knows?

This idea is particularly relevant to me:

A, if not the, fundamental question I need to answer here, in Estonia, is "do I want high capacity or do I want the ability to draw and shoot?"

The reason being, the powers that be decided that anyone carrying a firearm should, where possible, carry it in Condition 3. In other words, a semi must be chamber empty. And if you want to be able to draw and fire one-handed or fast, a revolver is the only way to go.

I opted for a revolver as, the likelihood of needing my gun is statistically very small, but if I do need it, it's got to be ready to go, there and then.

That, for me, is more important than having higher capacity.

Nanuk · October 30, 2019, 06:55 AM

Quote:

As a retired soldier with 4 tours in combat I only consider the things that are required to survive a firefight.

Bullets are one of those things. You notice when you run out.

If that happens, Statistically though you will not be around to voice your concern about running out after the firefight.

Nanuk · October 30, 2019, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Luckily, the chances of being in a defensive encounter are relatively rare throughout much of the United States or Canada. We carry for the same reason that we have fire extinguishers in our homes; just in case. For those encounters that do happen, capacity will sometimes matter.

In the US in 1987 the chances of being a murder victim was 1 in 133. Violent crime is the US is not as rare as some would believe.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xKHM3VOC6Yz1X4

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/09/u...-violence.html

https://www.statista.com/topics/1750...ime-in-the-us/

Lohman446 · October 30, 2019, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Huh?

The nice thing about high capacity is it shifts probability in a direction favorable to you.

Lastly, it sounds like you need to train more.

Lets discuss some premises that have face validity:

It is likely that anyone who chooses to engage me in armed (or unarmed) combat is going to be of equal skill to me if not better. Its unlikely I will be their first attempt at combat.

It is likely that they will have numbers. Numbers, if skill is equal, is a major issue.

While I train and attempt to prepare a mindset that allows me to deploy violence doing so, outside of agreed upon rules of combat in a ring or the dumb college bar fight, will be relatively new to me. My opponent(s) - probably not.

I can effectively engage two attacker with two rounds a piece out of a J frame before capacity becomes an issue. If it still an issue chances are my opponents have already overcome my defensive skill set.

I hope for either incompetent or undetermined attackers. Should my attacker be competent and determined I stand a chance against a single attacker. Should they be multiple, competent, and determined... well the factors start to work against me quickly. Think about it. They will have determined the time and place of attack, be competent, be determined, and have numbers. Capacity rapidly becomes a distant concern.

Nothing against you or others carrying what they want. That is why I refuse to answer the question about what "we" need. I can only answer the question about what I need because I am willing to weigh my risks differently. I believe I have a more realistic view of my ability than others though I do not know their ability and could simply be wrong in regards to mine.

Or I could be lazy and the J frame is just easier to carry and retain than my G19. I don't like appendix carry.

USNRet93 · October 30, 2019, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamaranger

I am surprised by the number of folks commenting regards comfort, appearance for their choice of firearms, and the belief that they can perceive or predict where bad things may happen to them.

Astounded may be an even better word.

Not surprising to me..too often, if the gun is a pain to carry, which is what we do most with handguns..carry them, people DO predict the future, consider the discomfort, and leave that uncomfortable gun at home. I carry as soon as I get up...everytime I leave the house..but it's gotta be concealable, comfortable, fun to shoot(means you shoot it lots, get better with it) and make sure it's...
reliable.

cslinger · October 30, 2019, 09:47 AM

Quote:

In the US in 1987 the chances of being a murder victim was 1 in 133. Violent crime is the US is not as rare as some would believe.

I read some of the stuff provided but I have a hard time believing this. 1 in 133 chance of being a murder victim would virtually guarantee many of us would know a murder victim. They also note a 1 in 33 for black males that would be wholesale slaughter.

2017 the number is like 3 or 4 in 100,000 IIRC. I have a hard time believing we have changed that DRASTICALLY.

I mean maybe that is the case but it’s a shocking change if so.

Double Naught Spy · October 30, 2019, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Do we need Hi-Capacity in everyday Carry?

I don't know who "we" are but I am certain that "we" are not together 99.99% of the time.

As such, I carry what "I" need for everyday carry regardless of what other people think they need.

Ruger45LC · October 30, 2019, 10:31 AM

Two things, one I don't really think it's a "need" but more of a good thing to have. Second, high capacity implies magazines that hold more than was originally intended for the firearm. So a 17rd mag vs. 10rd isn't high capacity if the gun was designed for 17rds. A 33rd mag would be considered high capacity.

But again I don't think it's a need but having more ammo is never a bad thing. If I carry a small single stack semi auto I will make the effort to carry an extra mag or two in case it's needed, even if statistically it won't be needed...I don't think anyone should go by statistics.

One reason I wouldn't rely on only needing (statistically) 2-3 shots is when carrying something like a 5 shot revolver, which is still popular. You've got 5 shots and honestly I wonder if people ever take into consideration that they can miss the target easily. As a matter of fact, in many shootings, many shots miss the target even at point blank range. It all goes down quick, so is five shots enough considering you might miss a few? Sure we practice to hopefully not miss but in a chaotic situation, anything is possible. What if you have to reload? What if it's more than one person? That's why I don't think the five shot revolver is the best bet.

I've carried small revolvers and I really like them for some reason, but overall the capacity is bad (although sure, better than a derringer) even when compared to small single stack autos and reloads, even if practiced, are much slower compared to autos, so slow that I consider it to be dangerous, especially if there are multiple attackers.

I know statistically we will never be involved in a shooting and we can go out of our way to avoid situations that could escalate into something or places that are unsavory, but sometimes it finds you. I'd rather have more ammo than less.

Lohman446 · October 30, 2019, 02:06 PM

Quote:

I've carried small revolvers and I really like them for some reason, but overall the capacity is bad (although sure, better than a derringer) even when compared to small single stack autos and reloads, even if practiced, are much slower compared to autos, so slow that I consider it to be dangerous, especially if there are multiple attackers.

Let's benchmark the G19 class as no longer a small pistol. I shoot the G19 pretty well. I also shoot the G29 fairly well. The small single stack autos like the P938.. once I get down to these I shoot a J frame much better. Yes, practice more, I get it. But we are talking after thousands of rounds. So I opt towards the J frame and its concessions when I am going to concede to carrying a small pistol. Bad choice? It may end up being so. However the chances of ever needing a gun and not having enough gun are pretty minuscule. Again others may opt to a different choice. It may even be a better choice and probably is for them.

Forte S+W · October 30, 2019, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamaranger

I am surprised by the number of folks commenting regards comfort, appearance for their choice of firearms, and the belief that they can perceive or predict where bad things may happen to them.

Astounded may be an even better word.

Why is that?

Seriously, would you consider that which you carry to be distinctively uncomfortable? Different folks have different taste in clothing, some have jobs with dress codes that don't lend themselves well to carrying double-stack pistols, and let's not even get into jobs which forbid employees to carry in the workplace, so while you or me can easily carry something larger comfortably, others simply cannot.

Also, depending on where you live, where you work, and the areas you have to traverse inbetween, one can easily estimate the risk of being accosted/assaulted as much lower than others to varying degrees of accuracy.

In other words, someone who lives in a gated community with armed guards and works in a government installation or security firm is obviously at a significantly lower risk than someone who lives in the projects and works at a gas station or convenience store. So if your risk is minimal, your work attire really can't accommodate a double-stack semiautomatic pistol, and perhaps your workplace doesn't permit you to carry on the job, then it makes more sense to carry a J-Frame snubby or a pocket pistol while you run errands than a larger firearm which you'd probably end up having to leave in your car most of the time anyway.

Besides, while you're questioning how someone could possibly feel so secure as to carry a snubby/pocket pistol with confidence, others could just as easily question how you could feel so insecure as to carry a double-stack pistol everyday as if it's necessary to do so.

The point is, folks live different lives in which different circumstances are present under which differing opinions are formed on what is viable and necessary to carry on a daily basis, and to presume that all instances are equal is foolish. There is no ideal, one-size-fits-all platform that everyone can and should carry on their person at all times, no matter what self-proclaimed experts may assert. One may be able to everyday carry a Glock 21 with 4 spare magazines and shoot it with perfect accuracy while others simply cannot do so.

shurshot · October 30, 2019, 04:21 PM

Forte S&W; Well stated!

tlm225 · October 30, 2019, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nanuk

In the US in 1987 the chances of being a murder victim was 1 in 133. Violent crime is the US is not as rare as some would believe.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xKHM3VOC6Yz1X4

https://www.statista.com/topics/1750...ime-in-the-us/

Perhaps my math is a bit rusty but these numbers seem a bit off:

With a U.S. population of 242.3 million in 1987 a 1 in 133 probability of being a murder victim would calculate out to 1,821,804 homicides in one year (1.82 million murders)

Cosmodragoon · October 30, 2019, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lohman446

Let's benchmark the G19 class as no longer a small pistol. I shoot the G19 pretty well. I also shoot the G29 fairly well. The small single stack autos like the P938.. once I get down to these I shoot a J frame much better. Yes, practice more, I get it. But we are talking after thousands of rounds. So I opt towards the J frame and its concessions when I am going to concede to carrying a small pistol. Bad choice? It may end up being so. However the chances of ever needing a gun and not having enough gun are pretty minuscule. Again others may opt to a different choice. It may even be a better choice and probably is for them.

I feel the same way. When I'm wearing a lot, a full-sized or compact semi-auto is fine. During warmer months when I'm wearing less, reliably carrying means going to pocket carry. For all the semi-autos I can reasonably fit in a pocket holster, a J-frame or LCR tends to be more comfortable.

The semi-autos have a harder angle, like the letter "L". Having a magazine inside the grips slaps constraints on size and shape. The LCR has a much rounder profile that carries and draws more easily from a pocket holster. The grips fit my hand better too, making them easier for me to shoot well.

Another thing to consider is that most of the small semi-autos that I can comfortably pocket carry are chambered in .380 acp.(I know the Sig P365 has been a "game changer" but I haven't tried it yet.) While .380 isn't the worst choice in the world it also isn't the best. Given the punishing recoil of .357 magnum, I carried .38 +p for years. I eventually upgraded to .327 Federal, which is reasonably comfortable with 85-grain loads. That's at least a six-shooter.

zoo · October 31, 2019, 02:27 AM

Quote:

I am surprised by the number of folks commenting regards comfort, appearance for their choice of firearms, and the belief that they can perceive or predict where bad things may happen to them.

Generally speaking, if it isn't comfortable you'll probably not carry it much including that situation where you most need it. Also, never underestimate one's ability to recognize when circumstances are about to head south. And lastly, if you gotta go you might as well go out looking good!

Carl the Floor Walker · October 31, 2019, 03:31 AM

Today, I will be carrying my Beretta Pico. And have plenty of training with the gun. If you feel you are going to encounter a FBI Miami syle gun fight, then bring a high capacity gun, a few shotguns and a AR.
Personally I am content and have peace of mind with the Pico. And if that makes you upset, then how about this, some days I carry a Smith 642 5 shot revolver.
What worries me the most? Getting nailed by a Text Message Driver.

OhioGuy · October 31, 2019, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker

Today, I will be carrying my Beretta Pico. And have plenty of training with the gun. If you feel you are going to encounter a FBI Miami syle gun fight, then bring a high capacity gun, a few shotguns and a AR.
Personally I am content and have peace of mind with the Pico. And if that makes you upset, then how about this, some days I carry a Smith 642 5 shot revolver.
What worries me the most? Getting nailed by a Text Message Driver.

If I think I'm going to encounter an FBI Miami style gun fight, I'm staying home!

OhioGuy · October 31, 2019, 05:25 AM

I think cost is a consideration here too. I routinely carry a Walther PPS with 8+1 capacity and one 8 round spare. In slightly less than that same footprint, a P365 carries 12+1 and this new Hellcat 13. The Glock 43X and 48, 15, if those aftermarket magazines become real and function properly.

The P365XL is almost identically sized to a PPS M2 with a 7 round magazine. I know because I studied them side by side for half an hour to the annoyance of the guy at the counter

You can get a new PPS M2 for $300. The P365 for roughly double that, once you include magazines. Same for Hellcat.

I'm paying 2x to get 4 or 5 more rounds on hand before a reload becomes necessary, which I think is really the appeal of these higher capacity micros. It's not hard to carry two spare single-stack magazines.

To migrate from what I have, to one of those, would mean almost $600 for the new gun, $50-$70 for a new holster, etc.

So for now, those extra few rounds before a reload aren't worth the financial investment.

Plus, while I haven't shot the Springfield, I can say that I shoot faster and better with my Walther better than either Sig. Practice, yes, but the shape of the grip suits me better too.

Lohman446 · October 31, 2019, 06:26 AM

Quote:

I am surprised by the number of folks commenting regards comfort, appearance for their choice of firearms, and the belief that they can perceive or predict where bad things may happen to them.

Unless you are constantly carrying around a long gun you have conceded to comfort and appearance already. You may count yourself in them number of people who have made concessions.

Carl the Floor Walker · October 31, 2019, 09:13 AM

Every thing in life is a concession.

Don Fischer · October 31, 2019, 10:22 AM

I spent lot of years driving 49 states and Canada. I carried all those years and have been into every hell hole in the US! I have never needed to get out the gun. Go into those places enough and over time you will learn to be aware of where your at all the time. Yet I'm also sure the possibility exist's that I could be caught off guard somehow. But I also think that unless your caught by some idiot just wanting to kill. the fight will be over sooner rather than later! Most important to me is that someone can't pick me out as having a gun and that the gun I carry is comfortable and concealable. I have two, one I seldom carry. My main carry gun is a Shield 9c. I carry it and one spare mag and both carry 8 rounds. I doubt very much if I did have to use it the fight would last very long. I think the majority of small time crooks just want your wallet, not a gun fight and they will vacate soon as a gun come's out at them. If they are more whacked than the small time crook then most likely most of us are not prepared for the fight even if we had a Sherman tank with us. For myself the best route always is avoid the situation in the first place. I'm not rushing into a building to save twenty people that refuse to carry! I have no death wish! I have at all time's a min of 17 rds. 8 +1 in the gun and 8 on my belt. Sometime I do carry my other gun. Ruger P89. has I think it's a 15 rd magazine and I do carry one spare with me. I don't carry it much as it's big, heavy and harder to conceal. I'm am very aware of it all th time I wear it, my Shield just disappears. I much prefer DA revolver's but to get one that conceals as well as my Shield or even the Ruger it would have to be small, light and that's gonna add recoil I don't deal well with. Shot a little detective special in 38 one time with factory loads. Couldn't believe how much it recoiled.

I seriously doubt any of us will ever be in a fight where lot's of ammo is needed and I believe even more that if we were, most aren't trained well enough to survive through it. People with carry permits all seem to have one bad fault in common, no body mess's with me state of mind. That attitude will get you shot! So, you can arm yourself with self defense in mind or with assault in mind. With assault in mind your probably gonna need to pack more ammo! Learn how to live to fight another day, choose your fight!

October 29, 2019, 06:34 PM	#76
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	For the record from my perspective predestination is supposed to allow one to face threat without fear and make a good accounting of ones self regardless of outcome. I also lack the skill set to effectively use high capacity in most situations. A protracted fire fight or multiple attackers is going to quickly highlight my shortcomings. __________________ A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation) Last edited by Lohman446; October 29, 2019 at 06:40 PM.

October 30, 2019, 12:00 AM	#78
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	wow I am surprised by the number of folks commenting regards comfort, appearance for their choice of firearms, and the belief that they can perceive or predict where bad things may happen to them. Astounded may be an even better word.

October 30, 2019, 05:27 AM	#81
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	My view is you don't need it until you need it. In other words, there is no way of knowing as encounters requiring your firearm to be drawn, with the knowledge it may have to be used, do not fit a formula nor pattern beyond, maybe, there being a criminal element involved. You may never need your gun. You may only need to draw. You may only need to fire once. You may need to fire everything and still run for your life. Who knows? This idea is particularly relevant to me: A, if not the, fundamental question I need to answer here, in Estonia, is "do I want high capacity or do I want the ability to draw and shoot?" The reason being, the powers that be decided that anyone carrying a firearm should, where possible, carry it in Condition 3. In other words, a semi must be chamber empty. And if you want to be able to draw and fire one-handed or fast, a revolver is the only way to go. I opted for a revolver as, the likelihood of needing my gun is statistically very small, but if I do need it, it's got to be ready to go, there and then. That, for me, is more important than having higher capacity. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

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October 29, 2019, 07:50 PM	#77
Forte S+W Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2019 Posts: 819	If the firearm that you carry is what you are most proficient with and best suited to defend yourself with, then obviously you've made the right decision. I was just mistaken and worried that perhaps you merely opted to carry what you do based solely upon your beliefs, regardless of if you could perhaps carry something more, and that you might be limiting yourself. Please pardon my presumption.

October 30, 2019, 10:31 AM	#88
Ruger45LC Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 768	Two things, one I don't really think it's a "need" but more of a good thing to have. Second, high capacity implies magazines that hold more than was originally intended for the firearm. So a 17rd mag vs. 10rd isn't high capacity if the gun was designed for 17rds. A 33rd mag would be considered high capacity. But again I don't think it's a need but having more ammo is never a bad thing. If I carry a small single stack semi auto I will make the effort to carry an extra mag or two in case it's needed, even if statistically it won't be needed...I don't think anyone should go by statistics. One reason I wouldn't rely on only needing (statistically) 2-3 shots is when carrying something like a 5 shot revolver, which is still popular. You've got 5 shots and honestly I wonder if people ever take into consideration that they can miss the target easily. As a matter of fact, in many shootings, many shots miss the target even at point blank range. It all goes down quick, so is five shots enough considering you might miss a few? Sure we practice to hopefully not miss but in a chaotic situation, anything is possible. What if you have to reload? What if it's more than one person? That's why I don't think the five shot revolver is the best bet. I've carried small revolvers and I really like them for some reason, but overall the capacity is bad (although sure, better than a derringer) even when compared to small single stack autos and reloads, even if practiced, are much slower compared to autos, so slow that I consider it to be dangerous, especially if there are multiple attackers. I know statistically we will never be involved in a shooting and we can go out of our way to avoid situations that could escalate into something or places that are unsavory, but sometimes it finds you. I'd rather have more ammo than less.

October 30, 2019, 04:21 PM	#91
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	Forte S&W; Well stated!

October 31, 2019, 03:31 AM	#95
Carl the Floor Walker member Join Date: June 3, 2017 Location: South Posts: 1,422	Today, I will be carrying my Beretta Pico. And have plenty of training with the gun. If you feel you are going to encounter a FBI Miami syle gun fight, then bring a high capacity gun, a few shotguns and a AR. Personally I am content and have peace of mind with the Pico. And if that makes you upset, then how about this, some days I carry a Smith 642 5 shot revolver. What worries me the most? Getting nailed by a Text Message Driver.

October 31, 2019, 05:25 AM	#97
OhioGuy Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2016 Posts: 1,089	I think cost is a consideration here too. I routinely carry a Walther PPS with 8+1 capacity and one 8 round spare. In slightly less than that same footprint, a P365 carries 12+1 and this new Hellcat 13. The Glock 43X and 48, 15, if those aftermarket magazines become real and function properly. The P365XL is almost identically sized to a PPS M2 with a 7 round magazine. I know because I studied them side by side for half an hour to the annoyance of the guy at the counter You can get a new PPS M2 for $300. The P365 for roughly double that, once you include magazines. Same for Hellcat. I'm paying 2x to get 4 or 5 more rounds on hand before a reload becomes necessary, which I think is really the appeal of these higher capacity micros. It's not hard to carry two spare single-stack magazines. To migrate from what I have, to one of those, would mean almost $600 for the new gun, $50-$70 for a new holster, etc. So for now, those extra few rounds before a reload aren't worth the financial investment. Plus, while I haven't shot the Springfield, I can say that I shoot faster and better with my Walther better than either Sig. Practice, yes, but the shape of the grip suits me better too.

October 31, 2019, 09:13 AM	#99
Carl the Floor Walker member Join Date: June 3, 2017 Location: South Posts: 1,422	Every thing in life is a concession.

October 31, 2019, 10:22 AM	#100
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I spent lot of years driving 49 states and Canada. I carried all those years and have been into every hell hole in the US! I have never needed to get out the gun. Go into those places enough and over time you will learn to be aware of where your at all the time. Yet I'm also sure the possibility exist's that I could be caught off guard somehow. But I also think that unless your caught by some idiot just wanting to kill. the fight will be over sooner rather than later! Most important to me is that someone can't pick me out as having a gun and that the gun I carry is comfortable and concealable. I have two, one I seldom carry. My main carry gun is a Shield 9c. I carry it and one spare mag and both carry 8 rounds. I doubt very much if I did have to use it the fight would last very long. I think the majority of small time crooks just want your wallet, not a gun fight and they will vacate soon as a gun come's out at them. If they are more whacked than the small time crook then most likely most of us are not prepared for the fight even if we had a Sherman tank with us. For myself the best route always is avoid the situation in the first place. I'm not rushing into a building to save twenty people that refuse to carry! I have no death wish! I have at all time's a min of 17 rds. 8 +1 in the gun and 8 on my belt. Sometime I do carry my other gun. Ruger P89. has I think it's a 15 rd magazine and I do carry one spare with me. I don't carry it much as it's big, heavy and harder to conceal. I'm am very aware of it all th time I wear it, my Shield just disappears. I much prefer DA revolver's but to get one that conceals as well as my Shield or even the Ruger it would have to be small, light and that's gonna add recoil I don't deal well with. Shot a little detective special in 38 one time with factory loads. Couldn't believe how much it recoiled. I seriously doubt any of us will ever be in a fight where lot's of ammo is needed and I believe even more that if we were, most aren't trained well enough to survive through it. People with carry permits all seem to have one bad fault in common, no body mess's with me state of mind. That attitude will get you shot! So, you can arm yourself with self defense in mind or with assault in mind. With assault in mind your probably gonna need to pack more ammo! Learn how to live to fight another day, choose your fight!