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Old April 24, 2017, 09:06 AM   #1
kraigwy
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Who says you cant miss fast enough to win a gun fight

USPSA is a good example that old saying "Cant miss fast enough to win a gun fight" is false.

Shot a match yesterday, 23 shooters, I came in 18. But when you go by score (points) I was 4th.

At near 70 I just cant move like the youngsters. I get winded just getting out of some of the starting positions. But I can still shoot and have fun.

Good thing they have the SUPER SENIOR class. A shot of Geratal and I can hold my own in the old grumpy class.

Of course it might have to do with my old cop attitude where you had to account for the bullets that didn't hit the target.
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Old April 24, 2017, 09:57 AM   #2
Glenn E. Meyer
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I hear you on that. Same age and running around isn't in me. I try for good hits.
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Old April 24, 2017, 10:54 AM   #3
Brit
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Couple of years ago, monthly IDPA match. At age 79, now 81, I came top most accurate with a Glock 19, field of 36. Carry same Pistol every day.
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Old April 24, 2017, 03:14 PM   #4
Don P
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At 64+ I too am a member of the "Depends Geratol" group. Dam depends slow me down something fierce. I always look at it when I see a Alpha mike I know for a fact that its a pure and simple perfect double alpha. I have enough trouble trying to keep up with the whippersnappers while RO'ing
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Old April 24, 2017, 03:17 PM   #5
g.willikers
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Missing is doing it the slow way.
Being old is doing it the slow way, too, but it looks better.
Keep on trucking, old man.
There will plenty of time to rest later.
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Old April 24, 2017, 04:34 PM   #6
45_auto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
USPSA is a good example that old saying "Cant miss fast enough to win a gun fight" is false.

Shot a match yesterday, 23 shooters, I came in 18. But when you go by score (points) I was 4th.
I've shot a lot of IDPA and IPSC matches, never shot a USPSA one. Most people seem to understand the trade off between speed and accuracy.

How many points do you get for a miss in USPSA? Do you get a point for just pulling the trigger?
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Old April 24, 2017, 04:48 PM   #7
BillM
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USPSA is the US region of IPSC---unless you are shooting in a foreign country the IPSC matches you shot were probably USPSA--slightly different rulebook.

Either IPSC or USPSA is scored the same way. Total points, minus penalties,
divided by time. That produces what's called a "hit factor". High hit factor
"wins".

So 120 points in 20 seconds scores the same as 90 points in 15 seconds
or 60 points in 10 seconds. All would have a hit factor of 6.000

There is a scoring difference between minor (125-165) power factor and
major (165 and above) power factor. Center A zone hits count the same.
but off center zone and edge zone (C and D) hits count higher for major.

Power factor is bullet weight in grains x speed in FPS, divided by 1000.

Some divisions---Production, Carry Optic and Pistol Caliber Carbine--score
minor for everything. Open, Limited, Limited 10 and Single Stack score both
minor and major.

Last edited by BillM; April 24, 2017 at 04:53 PM.
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Old April 25, 2017, 06:27 AM   #8
Don P
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Yeh, I neglected to include in my post that I may not have the blazing speed, but dam I look absolutely great doing it. At least I have that going for me
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Old April 25, 2017, 10:15 AM   #9
g.willikers
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Just be sure you are going at least quick enough not to get run over by them younger, fast footed ROs.
Hate it when that happens.
Almost makes me drop my pistol.
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Old April 25, 2017, 10:21 AM   #10
pete2
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I'll be 72 in a coupl weeks, I don't do run n gun. Don't shoot as fast as the young guys, usually more accurate than they are but in a game the speed wins.
In real life accuracy counts.
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Old April 25, 2017, 10:31 AM   #11
Brit
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Years ago, I used to shoot IPSC in Canada, one of the clubs Sharon Gun Club, had a local, just them rule.

When moving forward, you had to put the safety on! The rule book just said, no finger in trigger guard. A young RO was duty bound to catch me! So he hovered behind me.

As soon as that buzzer went off, I was gone! Right elbow tucked in to my tummy! Muzzle pointed straight down range. He never did catch me.

Met him years later, he was in the Canadian Spy group (Unarmed!) CSIS?

He asked me the question? "No, I said never!"
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Old April 26, 2017, 01:51 PM   #12
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"Can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight" was not about gun fights, but one of the shooting games. Think it was in Leatham's first book. "Can't miss fast enough to win."
Sharon Gun Club was like that. Probably still is.
CSIS is primarily about collecting and analyzing intelligence. Similar to the CIA they ain't.
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Old April 26, 2017, 09:52 PM   #13
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While I do still *try* to shoot fast, I also find it hard to overcome the LEO indoctrination I got years ago that 'your misses could kill innocent people.' Of course, I'm also the guy at the IDPA match who ducks one fast look around the corner, pulls back and THEN steps out to slice the pie.

First time he saw me do it, my son (a through and through gamer) thought I'd gone nuts. I explained later that for years it'd been drummed into me to get a quick look at the threat before you engaged it, and I just couldn't always switch it off.


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Old June 22, 2017, 11:47 AM   #14
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"Shot a match yesterday, 23 shooters, I came in 18. But when you go by score (points) I was 4th."

Actually you came in 20th out of 23, with 222 points out of a match total of 630. It doesn't matter if you shot 100% Alphas. It's not like IDPA, which uses straight time plus points down. It's hit factor. HF=points earned minus (procedurals, mikes, no shoots) divided by time. The shooter in the Division that has the highest HF takes all the stage points, even if they did not earn all the points. And all the other shooters in the Division take a percentage of that based on their HF. That's also why the Division ranking does not match the Overall combined ranking. And that's also why fast misses count for more than slow Alphas. Now that doesn't happen at Level II and higher matches, because all the Grand Masters and Masters are separated only by less than 1 point out of a 2,800 point match. If your'e going to get better at USPSA, your'e going to have to go faster. The example is Shooter # 19, who had 15 Mikes(that's 150 points down plus 75 missed points that he could have earned), but he got ahead of you because his time was 114.5 seconds (51.45%) versus your time of 209.8 seconds (43.28%). That's how this shooting game works.


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Old October 13, 2017, 01:22 PM   #15
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That is one of the reasons I love bowling pin matches - only center hits drive the pin back three feet and off the table. Edge hits result in deadwood - pins laying on the table needing to be shot again.
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Old October 15, 2017, 10:57 PM   #16
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I have a 10mm load that sends the bowling pins off the table if you hit them almost anywhere. It's kind of funny. They kind of twist themselves off the table.
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Old October 16, 2017, 02:10 AM   #17
Jeff22
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I shoot local USPSA and IDPA matches fairly regularly (but not so much this year).

I always strive to be one of the most accurate shooters. I don't worry overly much about speed and I try to use cover properly when appropriate.
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Old October 16, 2017, 09:52 AM   #18
Glenn E. Meyer
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IDPA changed its cover rules because of whining at major matches by 'competitors'. Quite a few folk feel that the changes voided some of the IDPA principles of trying to be realistic. Now stop laughing everyone.
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Old October 16, 2017, 11:58 AM   #19
Archie
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Confusion of terms

Do NOT confuse a gun fight with a game hiding behind the label 'competition'.

One cannot miss fast enough to win a gun fight. This presumes one has a competent adversary, not the 'cut and run' sort of loser so often in the news.

On the other hand, one can miss a lot and still win a 'competition' based on the speed of the misses and the ability to run fast. And specialized equipment.
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Old October 17, 2017, 11:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
IDPA changed its cover rules because of whining at major matches by 'competitors'. Quite a few folk feel that the changes voided some of the IDPA principles of trying to be realistic. Now stop laughing everyone.
It was a lot more realistic 18 months ago, than it is now.
I'm teaching a Safety Officer class this weekend, and it's hard to explain how a start position that is completely exposed to four targets is "cover" because of the angle of a fault line emanating from a wall fifteen feet away.
At least in the old days, the cover actually was between you and the targets.
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Old October 17, 2017, 12:46 PM   #21
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IDPA was never realistic. It was possible to compete with a standard gun instead of a race gun. BUT, it's still a game.
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Old October 17, 2017, 03:41 PM   #22
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All of the Shooting Sports are Games

They all fall short of a realistic gunfight. That is why the handgun-shooting sports that emphasize sight picture and heavy loads are the best. Like bowling pin shooting.
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Old October 17, 2017, 08:26 PM   #23
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IDPA is jut another game with different rules than USPSA. It was invented by Bill Wilson, one of the greatest IPSC shooters ever, and his homies. The only thing both have in common is the mechanics of shooting really fast and accurately. It has nothing to do with tactics.
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