Progress Report(Trap)....

Dave McC · July 3, 2001, 12:44 PM

For those interested, here's what's been happening in my pursuit of the wily and elusive clay pigeon. This may serve as a guide for tyros, and for those who have been thinking about trying out a clay game....

I started shooting trap seriously last January, running about 200 shells/week through an 870TB. Starting scores ran 13-15/25, and it took maybe three months to plateau at around 19/25. After reviewing all aspects of my equipment and form, I bumped up into the lower 20s, then mid 20s.

I ran my first 25 straight on May 25th. Got the patch, and had fun. Since running 25 was one of my short term goals for the first year, I was proud and pleased. So, being contrary as heck, I decided to switch a few things around, steepening the learning curve a bit.

Firat,I had been shooting with an extreme forward tilt, suitable for firing heavy "Serious" loads to help absorb recoil and aid second shot sight acquistion. Not needed for the light loads used in trap, so I worked on a straighter stance with a bit more flexability in the hips for those hard angle shots from Posts 1&5.

Second, I had been taking my shots long, giving the Full choke(an overchoke for 16 yard trap with hard shot in my loads) a chance to open.I went for getting on the bird faster and taking it closer to the house. Since I'd chosen the Full Choke to make me hold tighter as I got the moves down, this was tightening things up a bit. So,worked on that for a while, concentrating HARD and making the moves smooth and fast. BTW, since I'm a one eyed shooter that has to hold on the top of the trap house to see the bird right away, this meant a faster swing and more exactness in pointing. It worked....

Anyways, went and shot this AM with the Geezer League at PGC. Shot three rounds,and the scores were 23,24,25. Yup, ran 'em again. Got the patch, and having about as much fun as I can with my clothes on(G)....

A coupla things....

First, I'll probably get to a ATA match later this month just to have fun and see how I do. I usually shoot better if the folks I'm with are good shooters.

I'm not terribly competitive these days, and I doubt I'll go to many matches. But, I really like busting those birds. I may take this TB to a dove shoot and see how it does.

Second, in all my years of shotgunning, I may have finally found a good fitting stock. The trapstyle stock on the TB is a Monte Carlo style, and with the top of the comb touching the cheekbone, I've gotten more consistent in my mount. The longer length helps also, this is 14 7/8" and the Morgan pad does make things work out right.

Third, I had some POI probs at the outset, took care of them. Other than that, a smaller front bead and the Morgan pad, this TB is very close to stock. Once I got it fitting and hitting, I've left it alone.

Fourth, to feed this shell habit, I got into reloading. It wasn't hard, I produce shells that pattern very nicely, and my reloading costs run $2.56 a box. That's for a 1 oz load of hard shot, about 1200 FPS. Same load,switched to 7 1/2 shot instead of 8s or 8 1/2s, will do very well for upland birds and dove.

Finally, after this very intensive shooting, an 870 really feels like a body part instead of a tool. For any form of shotgunning, including 'Serious" shotgunning, this is what's needed for optimum performance.

Thanks....

BigG · July 3, 2001, 12:53 PM

Congratulations, Dave, on some nice gunnin'! I just got into formal clay games myself and can run about 15/25 either trap or skeet with my no choke 20" coach gun.

I have a question for you: I noticed the Rem 1100 in basic black at Walmart going for $328. As I remember, the 1100 was considered muy bueno back in the day. Has there been any changes/cheapening that would change that assessment? I had to restrain myself from reaching for my wallet, but wanted to check with a reliable source before I made a final decision. Thanks!

Dave McC · July 3, 2001, 01:01 PM

Big G, there's a thread I started here on bargain 1100s. Reading it should answer your questions. If not, I'll be happy to.

Maybe you should have reached for that wallet, those black 1100s have been discontinued and may now be gone forever.

The 1100 may possibly not be the best auto now available for the clay games,but it's close, priced reasonably and holds up well. The guys over on Shotgun Report say that it's life is about 35,000 rounds unless certain parts like the O rings are replaced periodically, then it's indefinite.

Good luck with the clays. Work on your form, practice a lot, CONCENTRATE and those scores WILL go up....

And thanks...

PJR · July 3, 2001, 03:31 PM

Those are fine scores Dave. I know shooters who've been at it for much longer who haven't broken 25 straight yet. It took me more than a year of regular trap shooting before I did it. It's still great feeling to run them.

Please keep us informed about your first registered shoot. From your posts here and elsewhere you are definitely a no BS kind of guy and I'd be interested in your observations on the ATA shoots.

Paul

Adventurer_96 · July 4, 2001, 12:14 AM

Dave:
Congrats first all. I'm new not only to clay sports but shotgunning, since I'd only shot one once before January.

Since then, I've bought an 1100 and I try to shoot 100-200 rounds per week in the night trap league we have out here in AZ since it's hotter than the hinges of Hades right now.

It's funny but for a while I was averaging 23-24, and I've had a few 25's. However, in the past few months I've averaged 21, with scores ranging from 20 to 24. Two things have come into play, but I think I know the real answer. First is the night shooting. It's a bit different than day. Fun, but different. Second is the fact that I started shooting my reloads when the night league started. Do either of these things explain my lapse? Probably not, I've been really busy and preoccupied with work lately. Plus, an old shooting acquaintance said it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools for shoddy work.

Tell me how the ATA shoot goes, I may be entering one here in the next month or so. Too bad there isn't a $1million "New Guy Shoots 25 Straight" prize or I'd be really excited!

Best of luck.

Check Six.

Dave McC · July 4, 2001, 05:39 AM

Thanks, guys.

Paul, I didn't exactly start on this back in January. It pains me to say that I've been shotgunning about 40 years, and this is the first time I've really gotten serious about the games. It was something I've promised myself for retirement for a long time. However, January was when I got serious.

And I will keep everybody posted.

96, you've made great progress. For your slightly lower scores,I'd be inclined to regard the following as possible causes. They're not mutually exclusive, so all of the above may be a correct answer.

Your reloads are not hitting where they should. Have you patterned them and checked POI/POA?

Night shooting can be a stone cold $%^&* sometimes. Some folks I know that shoot under lights go for one of the fiber optic sights, Others, which I agree with, think the bright sights distract from keeping one's eye on the bird. If you're using one of those, try shooting w/o it at night, or conversely try one.

And here's the likeliest reason, you're building a flinch. These creep up on folks, they have nothing to do with the concious thought process, it's a reaction to getting pushed or hurt. Cutting kick by adding weight to your shotguns, lightening up your loads(I'm shooting 1 oz,1200 FPS loads) putting on a premium recoil pad, and making sure you have good fit and form will keep this from getting worse.

HTH, and feel free to ask away....

C.R.Sam · July 4, 2001, 08:26 AM

Goodonya Dave. Good program, scheduling, training and documentation.

Who sez an old trick can't learn new dog recipies.

Sam

SDC · July 4, 2001, 09:24 AM

I'd like to learn how to shoot BETTER, or more consistently; the very first round of trap I shot, I broke 23/25, so it could only go downhill for me after that. (I was an exclusive rifle shooter before that round of trap.) That's usually how well I shoot now, and 25s are few and far between. It seems like once I miss a target, and start to relax, I can hit the rest of them without even THINKING about them, but you still sometimes get the hard left or right that you really need to chase to get.

MiniZ · July 4, 2001, 10:28 AM

After a 15 year hiatus, I am getting back into the trap game this weekend. I am really looking forward to it(although if I get hooked again, I don't really know how I am going to pay for it)!

Zane

Dave McC · July 4, 2001, 04:23 PM

Thanks for the chuckle,Sam. Old trick? Not since R&R in Bangkok, long ago(G)...

CDC,the only pressure you have on the line is self induced. Instead of trying for hitting them all,go for hitting THIS one. Then, the NEXT one. Then, the pressure may not hit until around bird #24, and if you've hit 23 straight, one more is no sweat!

Zane,there's worse addictions than trap. I try to keep the Head of the Budget Committee(Wonderful Wife) happy by reducing my costs. That's why I went to 1 oz loads and use a fast powder,Clays.

$2.50 for a round and $2.56 a box for reloads keeps the cost bearable. Also, I'm shooting a glorified pump gun, not a purpose built trap gun that just sucks money out of my wallet.

And, just to keep things in the open and maybe brag a hair, I went back to PGC today and shot ONE round of trap. Ran that one also. So, the last hundred targets I shot, I hit 97. Not bad for an old fat guy(G)...

RDF · July 4, 2001, 07:40 PM

Dave

I started shooting about 2 months ago, my first time at 100 was 18,19,19 and 18 shooting a Mossberg 500, since then I 've gone down hill. I just bought a Rem 870 that somebody convert to a trap gun. Tried shooting my last 25 with both eyes open, hit 5 ,it gets me down when i can't hit the broad side of a barn, going back to 1 eye. Going to Ky State shoot this weekend just to look around and see how everthing goes.

Dave McC · July 5, 2001, 04:03 AM

Sorry to hear that, RDF, let's run through the diagnostics and see if any of this helps. My guess, it will....

Start off with the basics. And, if you know any decent instructors, NOW's the time to get some help.Many good shooters are bad instructors, so pick carefully. Get your form down.

Switching to two eyes and scores dropping probably means you're cross dominant, ie, left eyed, right handed. Bet you'll do better shooting off the other shoulder.Start practicing your mount now with a shotgun KNOWN TO BE UNLOADED.

Next,you switched up on equipment. I never thought I'd say this, but you may be better off with the Mossberg than the 870,because of the fit. In either case, pattern your shotgun with your load of choice to check if it's shooting where you're pointing. While you're checking POI, see if there's any holes in your pattern.

And along with the above, check your fit with this simple test. With a shotgun KNOWN TO BE UNLOADED,stand in a ready position and focus on a point on the wall. Close your eyes and mount your shotgun. Open your eyes and check to see if the bbl's pointing where you were looking. Repeat a few times.

And once you've got the thing printing in the right place with a nice light load, the stock fitting well and your form getting more and more consistent, then get back into trap slowly. And, do NOT keep messing with the equipment,get it close to right and leave it alone. It takes maybe a coupla cases of ammo to adjust to any change you make in your equipment. Leave it alone and watch your scores improve.

And once they improve, here's a tip....

Swap some lost birds now for a steeper learning curve. Once you've gotten most of the above done and you're hitting a fairtomiddlin' proportion of birds,switch to a choke one increment tighter. Maybe even two.

My TB is overchoked for 16 yard singles. That tight pattern MAKES me hold tighter and stay on the bird.

Hope this helps,and if you'd rather talk privately about this,my E mail's [email protected]....

Jim Valandingham · July 5, 2001, 08:56 PM

Hi Dave,

I have recently been bitten by the TRAP "thing". I started with my new Mossberg 835, with an modified choke. It killed my shoulder, SO I invested in a slightly used Rem. 11-87. Great gun, love shooting it! It fits me, very comfortably, & I'm shooting 20/25 my 3rd time out. I can't seem to break 21, YET... but look out. My range friends say I'm a natural, as I did not grow up shooting. I like to think my involvement with handgunning has helped. I also shoot IDPA, with a SS Springfield Armory 1911A1 in 45acp. I've only been doing that since Oct. of 2000. BUT I love TRAP shooting. I'm looking forward to trying "5 stand" sporting clays. Thanks for listening to me ramble...

Jim_V...

Dave McC · July 6, 2001, 07:56 AM

Good to see you again,Jim,howya been? A coupla of things that might help you a bit....

Sorry to keep singing that same old song, but have you patterned that 11-87 yet to see where it's hitting? Until you do, missing is a mystery. We progress better if we can watch that clay sail out untouched and know we shot over,under, behind, etc. Once you establish POA/POI, look for holes in the pattern big enough to let a bird escape.Once you know you're the reason for a miss, you can fix it.

Handgunning is a totally different game, tho some outstanding shooters do both very well. I do less handgunning these days by far, old eyes do not pick up the sights like young ones. My impending Cataract surgery may improve that,time will tell.

5 stand is a blast and a half. I'd hold off on it just a little while,tho. Muscle memory and reflexes get honed best and quickest when only one game is being done. After they are ingrained, then is the time to add another set of muscle memories and reflexes. One thing at a time....

When you do get around to trying 5 stand, drop a Skeet tube into that 11-87 and have fun.

There's some old threads here that may help you, including one on reading your breaks. Plus, I've gotten some E mail inquiring about starting on trap, so I'll start a thread and we'll see what Geoff, PJR, the other trap heavies and I can do to help out new trapshooters....

Jim Valandingham · July 6, 2001, 01:17 PM

Dave,

You have me mixed up with someone else... I'm new here, in this "Firing Line" thing. But anyway, nice to meet you.

I'm shooting in the am, @ Brunner Range - Ft. Leavenworth, KS. Monthly "FUN" shoot, on the 1st Sat. In the past they have set up a few courses, shooting within a john boat, or from behind a built up "duck blind". I'm looking forward to this. This will be my 2nd outing with my 11-87, and can't wait. I'm a 44 y/o "little boy", just chompin' at the bit! Hope I can sleep, tonight... lol

Thanks for your advise, and good shootin'

Jim Valandingham
aka: [email protected]

Dave McC · July 6, 2001, 07:47 PM

Your name rings a bell, Jim. I know we've met in Cyberspace somewhere. Enjoy your shooting and let us know how it went....

BigG · July 7, 2001, 10:55 AM

George 22, 23

Luftwaffe, er, claybirds 3, 2

New 1100 works great!

Dave McC · July 7, 2001, 01:57 PM

BigG, sounds like the pilot did OK as well as your shotgun(G)...

Good start, keep it up....

Gary H · July 7, 2001, 07:31 PM

Dave:

Sound like your are doing great!

At the risk of having the thread moved, maybe you could give us a report regarding your reloading experience. I'm about to give it a try.

BigG:

Congrats on your new gun.

MiniZ · July 7, 2001, 08:25 PM

I'm going to add to this thread with my experience this morning...
I went to a tryout to be a member of my employer's corporate games team. I have not shot serious trap in over 17 years, but figured I would go, not having any aspirations of making the team, but to go have some fun shooting.

Well, after a warm-up score of 21, I shot a 21, a 23, and a tie breaker(for second best male shooter) of 22.

Needless to say, I am hooked again and will be shooting twice a week. I am planning on sticking with my 1100 Trap model for the short term(after all, I shoot it pretty well), until I replace my reloading equipment. Then I think I will look for a BT 99(another shotgun I shot well-"back in the day."

Zane

Dave McC · July 9, 2001, 08:01 AM

OK, Gary, you asked for it. I may bring up the old thread I did, or start a new one. Stand by...

Good shooting, Zane. My guess is you and that 1100 are but a few cases of shells away from running them. Enjoy..

The 99 is a fine trapgun, so's the 1100.You may neither want nor need to change after more shooting. If you do change, you'll still have one great doubles, skeet, SCs and field shotgun.

And a little addon, shot three rounds and scored 24,24,23.There's an ATA shoot there tomorrow night. I might just join the ATA and shoot singles, just to see how it goes against the local legends.

RDF · July 10, 2001, 09:57 AM

Dave McC

I shot 64/100 at the state shoot, with both eyes open. I was having trouble shooting with both eyes cause i see both beads on the barrel. A lady at the local club had the same problem she but a dot over the eye. I put a sticker on my glasses and this works. I replace the pad with a morgan pad and have it adjusted all the way down, have been practice on bring the gun up to my cheek instead of bring my head down. Had a older shooter look at my stance he sayes that i cant the gun alittle and the stock is to short for me, he had me measure by hold the gun in the bend of my elbow and measure to my trigger finger is this a correct way of measureing? I'm stacking my beads and holding below the birds also keeping my trigger arm straight out while shooting. i feel like this is helping.

Dave McC · July 10, 2001, 12:34 PM

OK, RDF, let's take another hack at this...

You're doing the right things, including asking questions. First...

That method of measuring stock length is, IMO a rough guide but that's all. I'm more impressed by a stock length that just fits into place well rather than following a formula. I'm a behemoth and shoot OK with standard stocks. This MC w/ Morgan adjustable pad has been a terrific aid in understanding just how much better one can shoot with a properly fitted gun.

Also, at this point I think stock length is important, but drop and cast are too. One can adjust to a stock that's too long or short better than one that is too thick through the comb, has too much drop, and puts the pattern over there someplace instead of where you're looking.

FYI, mine has but 1 inch drop at comb, same drop at heel of comb, and less than 2 inches at heel. The Morgan is set about 3/8" low and has about that much cast at toe so the pad rides my chest kinda obliquely. Fits the cup in the shoulder better.

Keeping the elbow of the firing hand up helps form the cup, you're right on there.

Again, I suggest you try shooting from the other side. If that's not a good idea, try the dots or reconcile yourself to being a one eyed shooter.

Finally, Rome wasn't built in a day. Take your time, do some research into your options, and enjoy.

July 3, 2001, 12:44 PM	#1
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Progress Report(Trap).... For those interested, here's what's been happening in my pursuit of the wily and elusive clay pigeon. This may serve as a guide for tyros, and for those who have been thinking about trying out a clay game.... I started shooting trap seriously last January, running about 200 shells/week through an 870TB. Starting scores ran 13-15/25, and it took maybe three months to plateau at around 19/25. After reviewing all aspects of my equipment and form, I bumped up into the lower 20s, then mid 20s. I ran my first 25 straight on May 25th. Got the patch, and had fun. Since running 25 was one of my short term goals for the first year, I was proud and pleased. So, being contrary as heck, I decided to switch a few things around, steepening the learning curve a bit. Firat,I had been shooting with an extreme forward tilt, suitable for firing heavy "Serious" loads to help absorb recoil and aid second shot sight acquistion. Not needed for the light loads used in trap, so I worked on a straighter stance with a bit more flexability in the hips for those hard angle shots from Posts 1&5. Second, I had been taking my shots long, giving the Full choke(an overchoke for 16 yard trap with hard shot in my loads) a chance to open.I went for getting on the bird faster and taking it closer to the house. Since I'd chosen the Full Choke to make me hold tighter as I got the moves down, this was tightening things up a bit. So,worked on that for a while, concentrating HARD and making the moves smooth and fast. BTW, since I'm a one eyed shooter that has to hold on the top of the trap house to see the bird right away, this meant a faster swing and more exactness in pointing. It worked.... Anyways, went and shot this AM with the Geezer League at PGC. Shot three rounds,and the scores were 23,24,25. Yup, ran 'em again. Got the patch, and having about as much fun as I can with my clothes on(G).... A coupla things.... First, I'll probably get to a ATA match later this month just to have fun and see how I do. I usually shoot better if the folks I'm with are good shooters. I'm not terribly competitive these days, and I doubt I'll go to many matches. But, I really like busting those birds. I may take this TB to a dove shoot and see how it does. Second, in all my years of shotgunning, I may have finally found a good fitting stock. The trapstyle stock on the TB is a Monte Carlo style, and with the top of the comb touching the cheekbone, I've gotten more consistent in my mount. The longer length helps also, this is 14 7/8" and the Morgan pad does make things work out right. Third, I had some POI probs at the outset, took care of them. Other than that, a smaller front bead and the Morgan pad, this TB is very close to stock. Once I got it fitting and hitting, I've left it alone. Fourth, to feed this shell habit, I got into reloading. It wasn't hard, I produce shells that pattern very nicely, and my reloading costs run $2.56 a box. That's for a 1 oz load of hard shot, about 1200 FPS. Same load,switched to 7 1/2 shot instead of 8s or 8 1/2s, will do very well for upland birds and dove. Finally, after this very intensive shooting, an 870 really feels like a body part instead of a tool. For any form of shotgunning, including 'Serious" shotgunning, this is what's needed for optimum performance. Thanks....

July 5, 2001, 08:56 PM	#13
Jim Valandingham Junior Member Join Date: May 10, 2001 Posts: 6	trap shooting Hi Dave, I have recently been bitten by the TRAP "thing". I started with my new Mossberg 835, with an modified choke. It killed my shoulder, SO I invested in a slightly used Rem. 11-87. Great gun, love shooting it! It fits me, very comfortably, & I'm shooting 20/25 my 3rd time out. I can't seem to break 21, YET... but look out. My range friends say I'm a natural, as I did not grow up shooting. I like to think my involvement with handgunning has helped. I also shoot IDPA, with a SS Springfield Armory 1911A1 in 45acp. I've only been doing that since Oct. of 2000. BUT I love TRAP shooting. I'm looking forward to trying "5 stand" sporting clays. Thanks for listening to me ramble... Jim_V... __________________ Stainless45

July 6, 2001, 01:17 PM	#15
Jim Valandingham Junior Member Join Date: May 10, 2001 Posts: 6	THANKX Dave, You have me mixed up with someone else... I'm new here, in this "Firing Line" thing. But anyway, nice to meet you. I'm shooting in the am, @ Brunner Range - Ft. Leavenworth, KS. Monthly "FUN" shoot, on the 1st Sat. In the past they have set up a few courses, shooting within a john boat, or from behind a built up "duck blind". I'm looking forward to this. This will be my 2nd outing with my 11-87, and can't wait. I'm a 44 y/o "little boy", just chompin' at the bit! Hope I can sleep, tonight... lol Thanks for your advise, and good shootin' Jim Valandingham aka: [email protected] __________________ Stainless45

July 7, 2001, 10:55 AM	#17
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	To-day's score... George 22, 23 Luftwaffe, er, claybirds 3, 2 New 1100 works great! __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 9, 2001, 08:01 AM	#21
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	OK, Gary, you asked for it. I may bring up the old thread I did, or start a new one. Stand by... Good shooting, Zane. My guess is you and that 1100 are but a few cases of shells away from running them. Enjoy.. The 99 is a fine trapgun, so's the 1100.You may neither want nor need to change after more shooting. If you do change, you'll still have one great doubles, skeet, SCs and field shotgun. And a little addon, shot three rounds and scored 24,24,23.There's an ATA shoot there tomorrow night. I might just join the ATA and shoot singles, just to see how it goes against the local legends. Last edited by Dave McC; July 9, 2001 at 11:59 AM.

July 3, 2001, 12:53 PM	#2
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Congratulations, Dave, on some nice gunnin'! I just got into formal clay games myself and can run about 15/25 either trap or skeet with my no choke 20" coach gun. I have a question for you: I noticed the Rem 1100 in basic black at Walmart going for $328. As I remember, the 1100 was considered muy bueno back in the day. Has there been any changes/cheapening that would change that assessment? I had to restrain myself from reaching for my wallet, but wanted to check with a reliable source before I made a final decision. Thanks! __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 3, 2001, 01:01 PM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Big G, there's a thread I started here on bargain 1100s. Reading it should answer your questions. If not, I'll be happy to. Maybe you should have reached for that wallet, those black 1100s have been discontinued and may now be gone forever. The 1100 may possibly not be the best auto now available for the clay games,but it's close, priced reasonably and holds up well. The guys over on Shotgun Report say that it's life is about 35,000 rounds unless certain parts like the O rings are replaced periodically, then it's indefinite. Good luck with the clays. Work on your form, practice a lot, CONCENTRATE and those scores WILL go up.... And thanks...

July 3, 2001, 03:31 PM	#4
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Those are fine scores Dave. I know shooters who've been at it for much longer who haven't broken 25 straight yet. It took me more than a year of regular trap shooting before I did it. It's still great feeling to run them. Please keep us informed about your first registered shoot. From your posts here and elsewhere you are definitely a no BS kind of guy and I'd be interested in your observations on the ATA shoots. Paul

July 4, 2001, 12:14 AM	#5
Adventurer_96 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2000 Location: Utah Posts: 417	Dave: Congrats first all. I'm new not only to clay sports but shotgunning, since I'd only shot one once before January. Since then, I've bought an 1100 and I try to shoot 100-200 rounds per week in the night trap league we have out here in AZ since it's hotter than the hinges of Hades right now. It's funny but for a while I was averaging 23-24, and I've had a few 25's. However, in the past few months I've averaged 21, with scores ranging from 20 to 24. Two things have come into play, but I think I know the real answer. First is the night shooting. It's a bit different than day. Fun, but different. Second is the fact that I started shooting my reloads when the night league started. Do either of these things explain my lapse? Probably not, I've been really busy and preoccupied with work lately. Plus, an old shooting acquaintance said it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools for shoddy work. Tell me how the ATA shoot goes, I may be entering one here in the next month or so. Too bad there isn't a $1million "New Guy Shoots 25 Straight" prize or I'd be really excited! Best of luck. Check Six.

July 4, 2001, 05:39 AM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, guys. Paul, I didn't exactly start on this back in January. It pains me to say that I've been shotgunning about 40 years, and this is the first time I've really gotten serious about the games. It was something I've promised myself for retirement for a long time. However, January was when I got serious. And I will keep everybody posted. 96, you've made great progress. For your slightly lower scores,I'd be inclined to regard the following as possible causes. They're not mutually exclusive, so all of the above may be a correct answer. Your reloads are not hitting where they should. Have you patterned them and checked POI/POA? Night shooting can be a stone cold $%^&* sometimes. Some folks I know that shoot under lights go for one of the fiber optic sights, Others, which I agree with, think the bright sights distract from keeping one's eye on the bird. If you're using one of those, try shooting w/o it at night, or conversely try one. And here's the likeliest reason, you're building a flinch. These creep up on folks, they have nothing to do with the concious thought process, it's a reaction to getting pushed or hurt. Cutting kick by adding weight to your shotguns, lightening up your loads(I'm shooting 1 oz,1200 FPS loads) putting on a premium recoil pad, and making sure you have good fit and form will keep this from getting worse. HTH, and feel free to ask away....

July 4, 2001, 08:26 AM	#7
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Goodonya Dave. Good program, scheduling, training and documentation. Who sez an old trick can't learn new dog recipies. Sam

July 4, 2001, 09:24 AM	#8
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	I'd like to learn how to shoot BETTER, or more consistently; the very first round of trap I shot, I broke 23/25, so it could only go downhill for me after that. (I was an exclusive rifle shooter before that round of trap.) That's usually how well I shoot now, and 25s are few and far between. It seems like once I miss a target, and start to relax, I can hit the rest of them without even THINKING about them, but you still sometimes get the hard left or right that you really need to chase to get.

July 4, 2001, 10:28 AM	#9
MiniZ Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2001 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 517	After a 15 year hiatus, I am getting back into the trap game this weekend. I am really looking forward to it(although if I get hooked again, I don't really know how I am going to pay for it)! Zane

July 4, 2001, 04:23 PM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks for the chuckle,Sam. Old trick? Not since R&R in Bangkok, long ago(G)... CDC,the only pressure you have on the line is self induced. Instead of trying for hitting them all,go for hitting THIS one. Then, the NEXT one. Then, the pressure may not hit until around bird #24, and if you've hit 23 straight, one more is no sweat! Zane,there's worse addictions than trap. I try to keep the Head of the Budget Committee(Wonderful Wife) happy by reducing my costs. That's why I went to 1 oz loads and use a fast powder,Clays. $2.50 for a round and $2.56 a box for reloads keeps the cost bearable. Also, I'm shooting a glorified pump gun, not a purpose built trap gun that just sucks money out of my wallet. And, just to keep things in the open and maybe brag a hair, I went back to PGC today and shot ONE round of trap. Ran that one also. So, the last hundred targets I shot, I hit 97. Not bad for an old fat guy(G)...

July 4, 2001, 07:40 PM	#11
RDF Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: West Liberty, Ky Posts: 133	Dave I started shooting about 2 months ago, my first time at 100 was 18,19,19 and 18 shooting a Mossberg 500, since then I 've gone down hill. I just bought a Rem 870 that somebody convert to a trap gun. Tried shooting my last 25 with both eyes open, hit 5 ,it gets me down when i can't hit the broad side of a barn, going back to 1 eye. Going to Ky State shoot this weekend just to look around and see how everthing goes.

July 5, 2001, 04:03 AM	#12
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Sorry to hear that, RDF, let's run through the diagnostics and see if any of this helps. My guess, it will.... Start off with the basics. And, if you know any decent instructors, NOW's the time to get some help.Many good shooters are bad instructors, so pick carefully. Get your form down. Switching to two eyes and scores dropping probably means you're cross dominant, ie, left eyed, right handed. Bet you'll do better shooting off the other shoulder.Start practicing your mount now with a shotgun KNOWN TO BE UNLOADED. Next,you switched up on equipment. I never thought I'd say this, but you may be better off with the Mossberg than the 870,because of the fit. In either case, pattern your shotgun with your load of choice to check if it's shooting where you're pointing. While you're checking POI, see if there's any holes in your pattern. And along with the above, check your fit with this simple test. With a shotgun KNOWN TO BE UNLOADED,stand in a ready position and focus on a point on the wall. Close your eyes and mount your shotgun. Open your eyes and check to see if the bbl's pointing where you were looking. Repeat a few times. And once you've got the thing printing in the right place with a nice light load, the stock fitting well and your form getting more and more consistent, then get back into trap slowly. And, do NOT keep messing with the equipment,get it close to right and leave it alone. It takes maybe a coupla cases of ammo to adjust to any change you make in your equipment. Leave it alone and watch your scores improve. And once they improve, here's a tip.... Swap some lost birds now for a steeper learning curve. Once you've gotten most of the above done and you're hitting a fairtomiddlin' proportion of birds,switch to a choke one increment tighter. Maybe even two. My TB is overchoked for 16 yard singles. That tight pattern MAKES me hold tighter and stay on the bird. Hope this helps,and if you'd rather talk privately about this,my E mail's [email protected]....

July 6, 2001, 07:56 AM	#14
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Good to see you again,Jim,howya been? A coupla of things that might help you a bit.... Sorry to keep singing that same old song, but have you patterned that 11-87 yet to see where it's hitting? Until you do, missing is a mystery. We progress better if we can watch that clay sail out untouched and know we shot over,under, behind, etc. Once you establish POA/POI, look for holes in the pattern big enough to let a bird escape.Once you know you're the reason for a miss, you can fix it. Handgunning is a totally different game, tho some outstanding shooters do both very well. I do less handgunning these days by far, old eyes do not pick up the sights like young ones. My impending Cataract surgery may improve that,time will tell. 5 stand is a blast and a half. I'd hold off on it just a little while,tho. Muscle memory and reflexes get honed best and quickest when only one game is being done. After they are ingrained, then is the time to add another set of muscle memories and reflexes. One thing at a time.... When you do get around to trying 5 stand, drop a Skeet tube into that 11-87 and have fun. There's some old threads here that may help you, including one on reading your breaks. Plus, I've gotten some E mail inquiring about starting on trap, so I'll start a thread and we'll see what Geoff, PJR, the other trap heavies and I can do to help out new trapshooters....

July 6, 2001, 07:47 PM	#16
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Your name rings a bell, Jim. I know we've met in Cyberspace somewhere. Enjoy your shooting and let us know how it went....

July 7, 2001, 01:57 PM	#18
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	BigG, sounds like the pilot did OK as well as your shotgun(G)... Good start, keep it up....

July 7, 2001, 07:31 PM	#19
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Dave: Sound like your are doing great! At the risk of having the thread moved, maybe you could give us a report regarding your reloading experience. I'm about to give it a try. BigG: Congrats on your new gun.

July 7, 2001, 08:25 PM	#20
MiniZ Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2001 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 517	I'm going to add to this thread with my experience this morning... I went to a tryout to be a member of my employer's corporate games team. I have not shot serious trap in over 17 years, but figured I would go, not having any aspirations of making the team, but to go have some fun shooting. Well, after a warm-up score of 21, I shot a 21, a 23, and a tie breaker(for second best male shooter) of 22. Needless to say, I am hooked again and will be shooting twice a week. I am planning on sticking with my 1100 Trap model for the short term(after all, I shoot it pretty well), until I replace my reloading equipment. Then I think I will look for a BT 99(another shotgun I shot well-"back in the day." Zane

July 10, 2001, 09:57 AM	#22
RDF Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: West Liberty, Ky Posts: 133	Dave McC I shot 64/100 at the state shoot, with both eyes open. I was having trouble shooting with both eyes cause i see both beads on the barrel. A lady at the local club had the same problem she but a dot over the eye. I put a sticker on my glasses and this works. I replace the pad with a morgan pad and have it adjusted all the way down, have been practice on bring the gun up to my cheek instead of bring my head down. Had a older shooter look at my stance he sayes that i cant the gun alittle and the stock is to short for me, he had me measure by hold the gun in the bend of my elbow and measure to my trigger finger is this a correct way of measureing? I'm stacking my beads and holding below the birds also keeping my trigger arm straight out while shooting. i feel like this is helping. Last edited by RDF; July 10, 2001 at 11:34 AM.

July 10, 2001, 12:34 PM	#23
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	OK, RDF, let's take another hack at this... You're doing the right things, including asking questions. First... That method of measuring stock length is, IMO a rough guide but that's all. I'm more impressed by a stock length that just fits into place well rather than following a formula. I'm a behemoth and shoot OK with standard stocks. This MC w/ Morgan adjustable pad has been a terrific aid in understanding just how much better one can shoot with a properly fitted gun. Also, at this point I think stock length is important, but drop and cast are too. One can adjust to a stock that's too long or short better than one that is too thick through the comb, has too much drop, and puts the pattern over there someplace instead of where you're looking. FYI, mine has but 1 inch drop at comb, same drop at heel of comb, and less than 2 inches at heel. The Morgan is set about 3/8" low and has about that much cast at toe so the pad rides my chest kinda obliquely. Fits the cup in the shoulder better. Keeping the elbow of the firing hand up helps form the cup, you're right on there. Again, I suggest you try shooting from the other side. If that's not a good idea, try the dots or reconcile yourself to being a one eyed shooter. Finally, Rome wasn't built in a day. Take your time, do some research into your options, and enjoy. Last edited by Dave McC; July 12, 2001 at 12:27 PM.