|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
October 27, 2012, 12:51 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 9, 2012
Posts: 153
|
Top break revolvers in Titanium?
Looking for feedback.
The issue that I keep hearing about top break revolvers in anything larger than .32 is that they have a heard time withstanding the pressures over the long haul. I also keep hearing that titanium is far tougher than steel. I would like your views on using titanium in the critical stress areas of a top break frame to strengthen a revolver enough to handle higher pressure loads. I am thinking that in today's world of CAD/CAM manufacturing a "modern" top break wouldn't be that difficult. What am I missing... aside from cost? |
October 27, 2012, 01:23 PM | #2 |
Member Emeritus
Join Date: August 19, 2004
Posts: 7,133
|
The hinge & latch.
Denis |
October 27, 2012, 02:46 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 9, 2012
Posts: 153
|
Hence the titanium
|
October 27, 2012, 02:48 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 10, 2012
Location: Memphis, Tennessee
Posts: 2,986
|
So far as I know, only market acceptance.
Bob Wright |
October 27, 2012, 02:51 PM | #5 |
Member Emeritus
Join Date: August 19, 2004
Posts: 7,133
|
Titanium/strength can't overcome weak design points.
Besides, crafting such a gun out of titanium would be expensive & result in a sale price that would take it off the market right there. Critical stress areas involved would be both upper & lower frame sections, as well as the latch. Denis |
October 27, 2012, 03:16 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 9, 2012
Posts: 153
|
I'm not an engineer and I'm not disputing you, but as Lucy Van Pelt said, "There has got to be a loophole!"
I have wanted a .357 mag top break revolver since I put my H&R 999 out to pasture. Thanks for the feed back! |
October 27, 2012, 03:26 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 7, 2008
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 451
|
It's a shame Webley can't be persuaded to make their exceptionally strong top breaks again. They were probably the sturdiest top break ever made.
__________________
Mark Lane to William Buckley: "Have you ever referred to Jessee Jackson as an ignoramus?" Buckley: "If I didn't, I should have" |
October 27, 2012, 03:29 PM | #8 |
Member Emeritus
Join Date: August 19, 2004
Posts: 7,133
|
Still a relatively weak design. It's not recommended to shoot standard .45 ACP loads in them nowdays (yes, I know people do).
One I had years ago had a very loose latch engagement from wear, and the hinge wasn't very tight, either. Denis |
October 27, 2012, 04:07 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
You have to wonder why a company would make such a gun even if it would be durable. A modern, stronger spin on an obsolete technology? I have many top breaks, and the swing out guns to me are not any slower or anything than a top break.
You may reply and say "well people like top breaks, and shooting them" well of course they do. There are many affordable shooter grade examples. Uberti makes a modern S&W Schofield replica. To make one that would take high pressure ctgs would be a major financial blunder. Of course some people would buy them, but the reality is few would be made, and then people like me in the future would collect them because its a bad idea, and that always makes something pretty rare in the future.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west Last edited by Winchester_73; October 27, 2012 at 08:53 PM. |
October 27, 2012, 05:57 PM | #10 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 1,085
|
Quote:
Quote:
I guess stupid import laws also killed the (only?) shot the design had at re-emerging when Baikal attempted to export the MP412 to our shores (very well done, Bubba) FWIW, I'm developing my own latch/hinge/action in a top break platform. According to the stress calculations I've done, numerous latch schemes could handle .357-level loads (my design limit-load is at 100K psi). If I ever piece together the scratch and time to make a demonstration prototype, I may convince somebody to machine a real one to test A man can dream, though... TCB Quote:
__________________
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater |
|||
October 27, 2012, 06:58 PM | #11 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 2, 2008
Posts: 3,150
|
While titanium is very light and strong compared to steel it cannot be hardened to the level of tool steel used in firearms. I think the hinge would wear fast enough to seriously loosen up the locking mechanism.
|
October 28, 2012, 12:13 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,967
|
I believe it could be done with modern steels. Titanium is stronger than steel by weight. A pound of titanium would be stronger than a pound of steel, but much bigger.
|
October 28, 2012, 01:02 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: Burien,WA
Posts: 897
|
yeah i like to see a top-break in 357 too
__________________
Rugers:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlins: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE 9mm 4",Springfield:XD .357sig 4", AKs:CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63, WW74,SLR-106c |
October 28, 2012, 02:32 PM | #14 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Posts: 974
|
its how the forces are distributed onto the latch. webley had the best. sw created the perfected model andwell that was a beautiful two part latch system.
the style itself is most suited for slow bullets, not the super fast lightweight stuff. |
October 28, 2012, 08:17 PM | #15 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 1,085
|
Quote:
Quote:
TCB
__________________
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater |
||
October 28, 2012, 08:25 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,936
|
For those who want a top break in . 357 , easy enough. Get your hands on a Navy Arms Schofield chambered in 38 Special. It is not hard to load a 38 SPL. to .357 pressure. Or get one in 45 and load it to 44 Mag pressure. ( Elmer Keith did it ), The Navy Arms guns are made with modern high quality steel. I think it would be very interesting to read the range report. Funny thing about titanium, it is stronger per weight than steel, but it is much more flexible and elastic. That's why they use a steel liners in the Titanium guns. with out liners in the chambers the the brass would stretch so much it couldn't rebound and in effect the brass would weld it self to the cylinders. Same with the barrel, the barrel would flex so much there would be no accuracy. I can imagine how using such metal would work on a latching devise, but hey' I'm not an engineer so who knows Note!!!!! now you know I'm being sarcastic about the 38 Special and 45 Colt, right? I would not recommend anyone to attempt such a thing. Never, ever.
__________________
Ron James |
October 28, 2012, 10:35 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8,306
|
And if Ford would only re-introduce the Model "A" in titanium!
For nostalgia, fine, and you can find them in nostalgic old calibers as they were originally produced. but for modern high pressure rounds, why?
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING! |
October 29, 2012, 06:57 AM | #18 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Posts: 974
|
its hard to explain. so lets look at this paradigm for help.
small bullet, high velocity creates more impact to the gun, to a certain point. notice that SOME poorly made revolvers beat themselves to death if you use high powered ammunition like that, but can last for ever if you use low speed ammunition? |
October 29, 2012, 07:54 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Posts: 3,968
|
Aside from a few people that want them as an oddity, there is not much market for them. The weakness of the design is another issue to overcome.
__________________
Sic Semper Tyrannis |
October 29, 2012, 07:55 AM | #20 |
Member
Join Date: March 30, 2006
Location: East Atlanta
Posts: 75
|
The Baikal MP412 looked like a interesting idea. I would love to see a break-top 357, but price to manufacture would probably kill it.
OTOH, if the Russians could do it in the MP412, maybe it can be done. You need to look at a MP412, or better yet get a copy of the blueprints. |
October 29, 2012, 08:24 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2010
Posts: 645
|
NAA seemed to have no technical troubles in making a tiny breaktop for the 24,000 PSI .22WRFM with today's materials. I wonder how difficult it would be reaching 35,000 PSI in a big revolver with big locking surfaces.
As the NAA example plainly shows, financial matters are another thing altogether. |
October 29, 2012, 12:15 PM | #22 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 9, 2012
Posts: 153
|
Quote:
My interest would be in a "modern" design in a top break frame, not a rehash of a 100 year old design. I don't know if it is practical or not, but it would be a lot of fun! |
|
October 29, 2012, 12:24 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 12, 2010
Posts: 316
|
No Market for modern Top-Break ?
A revolver that fires 45 colt and also fires 410 shotgun shells.
Who'd buy it ? Well, a bunch of people (not me - but enough people). A 22 magnum pistol with a 30-round magazine - who'd buy it. Me (as soon as they offer it in a 6.5 inch barrel). Semi-auto version of a Thompson sub-machine gun. Who'd buy it ? Well, a bunch of people (not me - but maybe enough people). A modern top-break in 38 special, 44 special, 9MM, or ? Me (if it was designed as a super-compact, light weight, pocket pistol - hence my inclusion of 9mm). Advertising means niche products can be advertised all over the USA (I'd guess 60 to 90 million potential customers). . |
October 29, 2012, 05:08 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,936
|
It has been so long that I don't remember if the turbine engines I worked on had titanium blades or not, it sure doesn't ring any memory bells, Regardless the vanes in a turbine engine are subject to a number of different type of stress factors, violent, sudden impact stress was not one of them. The information I posted about the clyinder liners in Ti cylinders is from Smith and Wessons by the way.
__________________
Ron James Last edited by RJay; October 29, 2012 at 07:08 PM. |
October 29, 2012, 10:15 PM | #25 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 1,085
|
Fun Fact:
GE (and others) use small amounts of Rhenium in their high-strength "hot parts" engine alloys. Quote:
So be thankful S&W cheaped out on their Scandium Pot Metal gun frames Quote:
TCB
__________________
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater |
||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|