|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
July 5, 2009, 08:47 AM | #26 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
|
Quote:
|
|
July 5, 2009, 08:53 AM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
By this logic...
.... you should let the BG stab you at least once, to see if he really wants to hurt you, or if he's just trying to get your attention. Also, you'll have wounds to show the DA...
|
July 5, 2009, 09:00 AM | #28 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
Creature, If my most adored and loved personal pet pit-mix so much as brushes a tooth on anyone not on my property I am fine with her being shot dead...
I am not one to put levels of force on levels of aggressive transgression. Levels are too relative. In this case I wouldn't fire 3 "warning shots"... heck I likely wouldn't fire any but if I suffered a "nice attack" I may pop one off! I wouldn't likely remember the pistol for dogs... Step in front of the leader and attack... Something about a human brain over the dog brain leaves me the winner. I love a good scrap with a viscous dog/s... Brent |
July 5, 2009, 09:02 AM | #29 |
Member
Join Date: February 1, 2009
Posts: 81
|
I think you did just fine. BillCA echoes my thoughts, so I won't go into any of that.
My only critique would be fumbling with the safety. All my carry guns have no safety to deal with. They are revolvers, Glocks, or a P89 DC. I'm not saying you need these types of guns, but I'm saying I need mine to all be the same. No safety, or all have the same type of safety. |
July 5, 2009, 09:08 AM | #30 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
|
Quote:
In this case, it was a couple of dogs that were marking their territory. I also doubt that these dogs even intended on directly attacking. I would bet that they were intent on merely barking and making a lot of noise...especially since the "offending pack" out numbered them. Besides that, a dog is also is unlikely to cause a lethal mortal wound with a single strike like your knife example. |
|
July 5, 2009, 09:15 AM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
Dog bite vs knife stab
The odds of serious injury from a single bite are significantly lower than the odds of serious injury from a single stab wound.
On the other hand, the odds of there being only one bite aren't all that good in the case of a charge attack. When those aren't bluffs, they will often as not lead to an attack in earnest. A single bite is more likely to occur defensively, when you encroach on the dog, or do something that hurts the dog (had experience with this as a kid, with my grandparents' arthritic hound - he wasn't mean at all, but small kids don't know their own strength, and it's easy to cause pain on an arthritic body). The dog will snap in warning, the bite may or may not be that damaging, and the dog will typically retreat. A dog charge for bluff, to mark territory, doesn't normally leave the territory. A dog charge, snarling and serious, is often precursor to a mauling, and not a single bite. Having experience with dogs, if I read the indicators that a mauling is in the works, if I have a firearm, it will be used. |
July 5, 2009, 09:18 AM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
relative pack size
there was a news article yesterday or the day before about a small child being attacked by a pair of dogs, while the child was with others.
Just because your pack is larger, does not mean an aggressive dog will not attack. Again, I love dogs, and particularly large breed dogs. I am very pro-dog. But that also means I respect what a dog is capable of doing. Downplay the threat at your own risk. |
July 5, 2009, 10:04 AM | #33 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
|
Quote:
The OP has yet to say what the property owner said, if anything, about the incident. Are these dogs socially adjusted to their pack and simply "marking" their territory? Or are the dogs known by the owner to be vicious and unpredictable? Doubtful since the owner feels comfortable enough to allow these dogs to be unleashed on an unfenced yard. |
|
July 5, 2009, 10:14 AM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
One would hope you are correct...
... about owners being sensible enough not to allow vicious dogs to run loose. Where I grew up, most dogs ran loose. Probably wasn't legal, but it was the norm. Semi-rural Maine was pretty dog friendly, at the local level.
However, I can tell you from firsthand experience that there are a lot of idiot dog owners out there. I've run into them in parks, on trails, on streets. They either don't know how to control their dog, or don't care how their dog acts. Some of the worst ones seem to think that an aggressive dog reflects cool points on the owner. Interestingly, most of this last group seem to be in their late teens to early 30's, and favor wife-beater tanks, sleeve style tattoos, and Fast and Furious style cars, at least at the parks I used to frequent in Florida. In the OP's case, you probably have a point. The "pause" may have indicated the end of a bluff charge. For that matter, the property may have an invisible fence. (Not all dogs running loose are actually running loose, at least not if they don't like electric shocks...) The warning shots in this case may have been overkill. Then again, given that the OP was trying to ensure the safety of a group that included kids and a grandmother, I won't fault him for erring on the pro-active side, since he seems to have ensured a safe backstop for his warning shots. |
July 5, 2009, 10:27 AM | #35 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
|
Dont get me wrong. I wasnt there. I didnt have to make that call. The OP felt in danger and thats no small matter.
But often times, animal and human interaction that is hostile is often based on misunderstanding on both parts. |
July 5, 2009, 10:34 AM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
You know the guy who gets along with the dog everybody else is scared of?
That would be me.
Always has been. Dogs just like me. I guess they can tell I like them. I'm that guy who can pat the dog that never lets strangers near it. I've also had to take positive control of boxers, rotts, pits, shepherds, dobies, and even a mastiff when dogfights have gone past the dominance stage at the park, primarily because a lot of large dog owners don't seem to have a clue what to do in those instances. In one case, had to break up a tiff between two boxers that was taking place between the legs of an older man, who was scared half to death. One of the boxers was his dog... Somehow, I've managed to avoid getting bitten, though I've had a few scratches. Just saying, I have a lot of experience at observing dog behavior, and dog-human interaction. I have to assume I'm not the only one, so I'll give people some benefit of the doubt when they feel threatened by dogs. But the more I think about this case, the more I wonder: How close was the OP's group to the dogs' yard? Did the group move away from the yard at all, giving it a wider berth, when they became aware of the dogs? Did anybody in the group have any past experience with the dogs? As always, there's info that we don't have, that could make a lot of difference. But in fairness, when the adrenaline is up (and especially if guarding kids), it may be hard to take note of a lot of pertinent factors. |
July 5, 2009, 10:37 AM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2004
Posts: 170
|
I recall jogging unarmed at night along the ocean at Daytona Beach years ago and having TWO dobermans race at me in what I read as "attack mode" only to have them called off as they got dangerously close to me by their apparent owner who was smoking back among the vegetation approximately 75 yards away.
But I digress! I just wanted to point out that in a recent report I reviewed of shots fired by the NYPD during a recent year that JUST UNDER HALF of all shots fired were a combination of accidental discharges PLUS shots fired AT DOGS! |
July 5, 2009, 10:41 AM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 13, 2007
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 844
|
Ability: Yep.
Opportunity: Yep. Jeopardy: Yep. My only concern is the 3 shots. Might deplete too much of my ammo in a pocket gun, but it worked for you. |
July 5, 2009, 11:17 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2008
Location: INDIANA
Posts: 191
|
Glad it worked out okay. I'm not upset with how the dogs acted or how you reacted. It worked out without anyone getting hurt. I believe you should confront the owner and insist he keep his dogs restrained. Most cities have laws that demand a dog owner to keep his dog under control at all times. Most owners don't realize their 50 pound playful puppy that is good with kids, well behaved, and non-threatening doesn't quite look the same to a person being charged.
__________________
Ruger P95, GP100, KelTec P11, Mossberg 500, Mosin Nagant 91/30, S&W M&P 45 |
July 5, 2009, 11:19 AM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 10, 2008
Posts: 157
|
I'll start by saying I have grown up with pretty big labs and lab mixes, I love dogs, and the only 2 dogs I was ever really nervous around was a very big very playful boxer who didn't seem to have that natural restraint/boundary when playing, and my grandmothers ****zu who hated me and constantly was nipping my ankles.
Across the street from me is what i would call a 40lb mutt. Very playful, and gets out quite a bit. Has definitely given me a start when I hear her running up behind me but as soon as I turn and see it is her I am not worried. But down the street my wife and I were walking one night and there was a similar sized dog, another mutt i think, that was coming at my wife and i and our 2 dogs VERY aggressively. We hadn't had any issues with dogs before so I hadn't bothered bringing a whoopin stick, so I got my wife behind me with our little 15lb killer terrier (yes she really is way more dangerous than my big dog on a normal basis), made sure i had a good handle on my bigger 60lb lab shephard mix and tried to scare the dog off. I was loud aggressive and swinging a newspaper I had found, not really at the dog but just around trying to be 'bigger'. My big dog was very defensive and we kept slowly backing away staying between the bad dog and my wife. A stranger actually stopped and got out of her car to help me try and outnumber and scare the dog off but the dog wasnt backing down and was snapping so my wife and i started quickly walking away while the stranger kept the dogs attention. When we were far away the lady got back in her car. From that point on I carried an aluminum broom handle, which while it wont stop a dog, im pretty sure it could be painful enough to dissuade, but as soon as I finally get my CHL in the mail I will be carrying. 2 different dogs 2 very different situations. You HAVE to be able to read the body language and decide. Assuming this guy was not close to these dogs' yard he had no reason to assume they were bluffing and totally did the right thing IMO. I would agree that the safety issue needs to probably be worked on, but on the warning shots, what difference does the number taken really matter?? I mean if capacity was an issue that is really the only problem I see with it. The ditch was a legitimately safe backstop so I guess I don't have a problem firing 3 shots. As far as waiting untilt he dog bites?? Please give me a break. I might wait until the dog got very close because I would first be more confident they aren't bluffing and second closer they are the bigger the target. |
July 5, 2009, 11:35 AM | #41 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,652
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by 5whiskey; July 5, 2009 at 11:40 AM. |
|||||
July 5, 2009, 11:46 AM | #42 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,652
|
Creature, you're doing a whole lot of assuming.
Quote:
|
|
July 5, 2009, 11:52 AM | #43 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
|
Quote:
|
|
July 5, 2009, 11:54 AM | #44 |
Junior member
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,172
|
You didnt call 911 and report this? Why not?
Your failure to do so raises my left eyebrow WildthatsabdasignAlaska TM |
July 5, 2009, 11:57 AM | #45 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 3, 2002
Posts: 251
|
Quote:
Regardless of the actual definition of "pack" (if there is one), as far as I am concerned, two dogs make a pack since pack behavior can be brought out with just one other dog. Locally, there have been some very well-publicized human deaths resulting from two-dog attacks. Quote:
|
||
July 5, 2009, 11:59 AM | #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: Nashville, Tn.
Posts: 683
|
My neighbor's pit bull charged me this week (Tues) as I walked past the house. When a dog comes hard charging off the porch, hair standing up, stiff legged, teeth bared...I figure I'm going to be bitten.
I'd been cutting grass so i did not have mt pistol on me...only a pocket knife. A loud stop command worked. Then a command to "get back" as I advanced did the trick but he was still growling and barking...from in the yard (he did advance to mid street). Dogs are hard to deal with. This family is new to the neighborhood. I spoke with the owner half hour later to suggest putting the dog in the fenced back yard. We'll see. Glad you didn't get chewed up! Dog bites are ugly and HURT! Mark
__________________
...even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while. |
July 5, 2009, 12:21 PM | #47 |
Junior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2009
Location: Norte Califas
Posts: 8
|
Legitimate critques on here are great. Monday morning QBing is a bit questionable. 5Whiskey had split second to act, which if you've been a shooting situation then you know that is about all you get.
Love dogs, have a GS and two Rots (one still in training). If they decide they want you, you belong to them. It is instructive to watch a rot whip a small animal side to side, breaking it's back and neck. If you've never experienced a dog bite, you don't know what you're missing. Years ago, Sergeant said, "Throne (well he actually used my real name) we have a burglar in that house. Sheriff is bringing his dog. You kick the door to let the dog and handler in." I said, "Sure" (stupidly proud that I had a reputation as excellent door kicker which I learned in the Oakland academy) Deputy and dog showed up, I kicked door and stood the heck out of the way, facing the outside wall, not moving. Saw dog out of corner of eye enter house then immediately back out and lung at me. Pain like you never felt, my gun arm went numb (or I swear I'd have shot him before the handler got him off) Was a full two weeks before I got the feeling back in my arm enough to draw my pistol and get off front desk light duty! Moral of story: If I see dogs running at me and think they are going to do me again, or a child, no warning shots. I won't fault 5whiskey for what he did. Just be glad it was 4th of July and all the sounds blended in! (Best time to commit a 187 lol) |
July 5, 2009, 12:26 PM | #48 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
|
Quote:
|
|
July 5, 2009, 12:28 PM | #49 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
As the owner of some pretty "high prey drive" bulldogs, I have seen some brutal "yard fights" over many trivial issues. One thing I learned is the pack mentality is ruthless. The head honcho dog and a "lesser" dog can get into a fight and as soon as possible, which ever dog is on the losing end is at risk of death if others jump in the fight.
I do not own human or dog aggressive dogs but the prey drive is too much for me to allow little kids in the "dog yard" without super tight supervision... These dogs home in on a squealing playful toddler as if it were a pig or other target critter and it could get me on TV and right into prison. Responsible dog handling is required with all dogs but too many folks overlook the prey drive, pack attack mentality other other hereditary and genetic instincts. While my dogs are trained, they are from working lines of high drive breeds. You can never train out or water down a genetically created trait. Brent |
July 5, 2009, 12:38 PM | #50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,857
|
Quote:
I liked the rodeo events with vicious animals too, it was the best part of the job.
__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards." -George Orwell |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|