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Old August 23, 2018, 04:20 PM   #26
Uncle Malice
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A 223 rifle with proper SD ammo will penetrate less then a pistol bullet from either a PCC or a handgun
This. Beat me to it.

10.5" AR-15 in 5.56 with a linear comp. Sure, it barks... I want it that way. I could also use the Scorpion, but I'd much rather send all of that fire and energy towards whatever I'm shooting at within the home. Complete psychological disruption is what I'm after. This is also why I don't run a can on the home defense set up.

I'd say a good PCC like an AR-9, Scorpion, MP5 clone, etc could be a good secondary option. I'd be hard pressed to choose between that or the 590A1 if I couldn't run with my primary choice.

My top choices for in-home would be:
- short barrel 5.56
- short barrel 300blk
- Scorpion or 590A1
- Glock 19 or 19X
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Old August 23, 2018, 08:56 PM   #27
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I just built an AR pistol in 40 S&W. Why 40 S&W? I have lots of ammo. I spared no expense and have about $800 in the build counting the Prism sight. It is softer shooting than my 5.56 AR Pistol, I used the Taccom 3g 3 stage buffer system.

My experience it that it runs very clean and cool compared to a DI gun. What is not to love with a 155 grn JHP @ 1400 FPS.
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Old August 24, 2018, 10:39 AM   #28
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Home defense

1 - pistol
2 - 870
3 - AR


Out of home...... dont see a play for the PCC, except plinking

I get the PCC love, they are fun..... But IMHO, they are almost equal to a pistol for inhouse stuff......
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Old August 24, 2018, 12:05 PM   #29
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I guess it all depends on the application of your PCC.

I'm on my 3rd PCC. Started with the Camp 9, went to the Hi Point, and now I have the Aero Survival PCC in 9mm. I like my Hi Point the most for plinking. Yeah, crazy, huh?

I used to think a PCC would be good for a bad situation, but nowadays, I'm more of the 5.56 AR mindset. I mean, both rounds weigh the same. I'd rather have 800 ft/lb than 400 ft/lb from the same sized gun.

Strictly plinking - Hi Point. Defense/Offense - AR 'cause I hate the drop beyond 50 yards.
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Old August 25, 2018, 10:46 AM   #30
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What aimtrue said!!!

I own two of the PCC 9`s and am completely happy with all aspects of this gun.
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Old August 25, 2018, 12:36 PM   #31
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The problems with short barreled AR's are, significantly less velocity which negates the benefit of the "rifle" cartridge. Significantly more noise when compared to a PCC.

The 40 S&W PCC matches the energy of a 7.5 " 5.56 with a bigger, heavier bullet that will even expand bigger. The 300 really has no significant advantage either.

Those that think that the PCC or AR pistol have no advantage to a pistol have never run one to find out.
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Old August 25, 2018, 03:30 PM   #32
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Quote:
The problems with short barreled AR's are, significantly less velocity which negates the benefit of the "rifle" cartridge.
This is true for 7.5" 5.56 barrels. A 5.56 needs to hit 2400fps to be properly effective. A 10.5" barrel will do that no problem. You're not really giving up anything, and it's MUCH more effective than a 9mm PCC with LESS over-penetration issues.
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Old August 25, 2018, 03:42 PM   #33
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This is true for 7.5" 5.56 barrels. A 5.56 needs to hit 2400fps to be properly effective. A 10.5" barrel will do that no problem. You're not really giving up anything, and it's MUCH more effective than a 9mm PCC with LESS over-penetration issues.
True, I am using a 40. The 155's I use hit 1400 FPS from the 8.5" BBL.

It works for me.



Quote:
Black Hills(new) 223 68 gr. hvy match HP---- 2253.1 25.2 766.4 | 2569 16.4 996.3
- Black Hills(reman) 223 75 gr. match HP------ 2250.3 16.8 843.2 | 2534 11.2 1069.2
- Speer 223 Gold Dot HP 55 grain--------------- 2612.7 14.9 833.5 | 2953.1 13.8 1064.8
- Speer 223 Gold Dot HP 64 grain--------------- 2297.3 23.6 747.5 | 2623.6 23.1 978.0
- Speer 223 Gold Dot HP 75 grain--------------- 2213.7 12.2 816.0 | 2504.7 10.7 1044.6
- GECO 556 55 gr. FMJ---------------------------- 2702.2 29 891.6 | 3053.6 20.9 1138.6
- Fed AE 556 XM 855 62 gr. penetrator-------- 2657.7 16.5 972.2 | 3021.4 15.8 1256.5
- IMI 556 55 gr.M193FMJ------------------------- 2672.7 25.3 872.2 | 3049.4 28.9 1135.4
- IMI 556 62 gr. M855 62 gr. penetrator------- 2637.3 18.5 957.4 | 2980.9 27.8 1223.1
- IMI 556 77 gr, OTM LR Mod 1------------------2448.9 18 1025.2 | 2729.4 10.7 1273.5
The 155 grn 40 out of the longer BBL is virtually identical for energy with the low to mid range 5.56 loads.
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Old August 25, 2018, 06:43 PM   #34
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A 9mm carbine makes a sorry defensive weapon
What world are you living in that would make this true?
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Old August 25, 2018, 06:58 PM   #35
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What world are you living in that would make this true?
My thoughts exactly.

I have 30+ years LE experience, competitive shooting experience, have had AR pistols with 7.5" and 10" barrels in 5.56 and 300 Blackout.

The PCC or properly configured AR pistol allows for fast, accurate hits and extends the range of a pistol without the noise and blast of a short barreled rifle cartridge going of in an enclosed space.

There is too much Dogma about "rifle cartridges". Anytime you can break 500 FPE it is serious. My 40 AR pistol hits about 700 FPE, that is nothing to sneeze at.
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Old August 28, 2018, 10:02 AM   #36
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I have a CZ Scorpion carbine and it is fun and I would use it for Home Defense in a snap. 20-30 round mags available. I just watched a video about a guy talking about hitting 10K rounds down tube on his Scorpion. No issues for him.
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Old September 9, 2018, 09:43 AM   #37
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A 9mm carbine makes a sorry defensive weapon
Quick! Everyone!! We'd better call the Navy SEALs and tell them their MP5's haven't worked, all this time!

x1000

"Handgun bullets penetrate too far compared to a rifle"
"I use a pistol for HD"
"Well that's totally OK then"

x1000

/rant mode
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Old September 9, 2018, 11:03 AM   #38
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I have received my Ruger PCC 9 mm. So far I have only shot around 100 rounds through it using a Glock 19 magazine. I did shoot it back-to-back with my Hi-Point TS995 on one occasion.

Although the Ruger cost not quite twice as much I do feel it is the much better value. I have had no malfunctions thus far but round count is low. I had malfunctions with the TS995 starting with the first magazine.

Shooting the two back-to-back I shot tighter groups at 40 yds with the Ruger than the Hi-Point, but the comparison is not quite fair as I was using a 3X Nikon scope on the Ruger and a 1X red dot sight on the Hi-Point. Perceived recoil for the two seemed to me to be about the same.

Although I will probably not be using the take-down feature of the Ruger for storage or transport, being able to break it down makes the barrel and chamber very easy to clean. Taking the Ruger apart to get at the bolt and action is vastly quicker and easier than for the Hi-Point, although you have to be careful that the pins securing the trigger group do not fall out and get lost (sort of like the 10/22 in that regard).

The trigger is not great but not bad. I rate it as a bit better than that of the Hi-Point and it seems significantly lighter than the stock trigger that came with both of my Ruger 10/22s. I wouldn't mind a somewhat lighter trigger. Brimstone Gunsmithing told me that they hope to offer trigger work for the Ruger PCC by the end of the year. Their work on my two 10/22 triggers was excellent.

All of the operating controls of the Ruger are vastly more pleasant to use than those of the Hi-Point. Magazine changes are much easier although the location of the magazine release button does not allow the shooter to easily drop the mag while reaching for a fresh one with the left hand. Operating the charging handle is much easier and smoother, releasing the bolt from the locked-open position is a snap, and locking open the bolt works the same way as on the Ruger 10/22 and is easier to do than with the Hi-Point. For a right handed shooter like me, the cross-bolt safety on the PCC 9 is very easy to access and does not require a shift in the grip of my trigger hand.
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Old September 9, 2018, 08:29 PM   #39
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A general lack of big picture thinking is a trend... Looking at only a couple aspects without how they affect other aspects or the big picture.

PCC for HD...

Pros:
Easier to aim/be accurate than a pistol for most people due to stability.
Easier to mount an RDS. (Model dependant)
Easier to mount assesories like lights.
Increased magazine capacity. (Model dependant)
Easier to mount a suppressor without affecting ballance.

Cons:
Higher velocity of the bullet increases wall penetration.
Higher velocity typically decreses penetration in the target, this can make it less effective.
Can be harder to maneuver indoors, or make using a free hand more difficult. (This is skill dependant)

There may be others I am missing for both categories though.


The sound of a firearm indoors is going to be unpleasant, be it a pistol, shotgun, PCC, or rifle.

The use of a 5.56 rifle indoors is common, while hearing loss happens, the immediate affects of firing the rifle indoors is not a hindrance to those doing it. So debates on noise levels and hearing damage are moot. It's going to happen regardless, and it's not going to prevent you from fighting. Generally, you don't want to make it a habit of using a firearm without hearing protection indoors or out... But a single incident, the trade off is likely worth it.


PCCs are a lot of fun to shoot though. As a range toy or training aid, they are great.

And while I wouldn't call a PCC a poor HD firearm, to me, I would choose something else over o PCC.


Because another consideration is the size and weight of a PCC vs other options. The "pistol" configuration with a brace can be handy... But once you go to a 16in barrel, the balance of size and maneuverability shift. May as well use a 223/5.56 carbine at that point. Similar size and weight but with more effective caliber. But at the same time an AR pistol with brace is a good option as well, making the "pistol" PCC less viable too. You can't claim less recoil, as a 9mm PCC typically has as much or more than a 223/5.56.

The way I see it... If you are stepping up to a rifle configuration, may as well jump up to a more effective caliber as well.
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Old September 9, 2018, 09:41 PM   #40
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And this^ is why most LE special units have gone to 556 SBR’s.

If you are going to carry a rifle sized gun, you might as well shoot a rifle sized cartridge.
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Old September 10, 2018, 12:00 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumWill View Post
Quick! Everyone!! We'd better call the Navy SEALs and tell them their MP5's haven't worked, all this time!

x1000

"Handgun bullets penetrate too far compared to a rifle"
"I use a pistol for HD"
"Well that's totally OK then"

x1000

/rant mode
Seals use MP5s which are FULL AUTO.

BIG DIFFERENCE between that and a 9mm carbine. Also, MP5s don't have 16" long barrels either, which is a WASTE for a 9mm and is only done to keep the legal.

Sorry, but if I'm going with a long gun, it's going to be a 5.56 carbine at a minimum. 9mm is laughably underpowered for a full-sized rifle class weapon. PERIOD.
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Old September 10, 2018, 01:25 AM   #42
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If you are going to carry a rifle sized gun, you might as well shoot a rifle sized cartridge.
I agree! BUT, a carbine isn't a "rifle sized gun", its a carbine.

By definition, a carbine is shorter than the standard rifle.
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Old September 10, 2018, 01:26 AM   #43
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Yup...

A 9mm subgun (well any pistol caliber really) makes up for the general lack of bullet performance, by being able to spit out a lot of them in a hurry.


I've said it before... Subguns we're created a long time ago to fill a particular need. They were fielded by military units as a close range rapid fire weapon. They saw a need for a full auto firearm in the hands of the average boot on ground soldier, to supplement the slower and longer range full size rifles, and the heavier and more difficult to wield light machine gun. The LMG was good for fire support, but was not easy to use close quarters.

The reason they used pistol ammo was to keep them light for individual use, and to make them easier to control when fired unsupported from the shoulder.

They didn't have intermediate calibers back then... Or nothing that was in military use anyway.

The rise of the intermediate calibers didn't knock the subguns out right away, but they are dieing a slow death. At first it was easier to suppress pistol calibers... And fmj ammo from an SBR isn't the best stopper, so 9mm holes are about as good.

Now, ammo improvement and new calibers make subguns pretty pointless.

About the only reason to keep them around is that they can be made smaller and lighter than a typical SBR of useful barrel length. I can envision a 3lb subgun based around the 5.7 as being a very small and handy firearm for vehicle crews or support personnel, especially if they have limited space to keep rifles. This is basically just the PDW concept. But PDWs are not gaining steam... I could see them being useful in the right context, but currently they don't seem to be considered a need over a pistol on the hip, or a few rifles stashed close by.
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Old September 13, 2018, 07:50 AM   #44
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Pistol caliber AR pistol........

The 9mm +P rises to the level of the 357 magnum
The 40 S&W rises to the level of the full power 10mm.

Both are close enough to a 5.56 from an ultra shot BBL to work fine.
My 40 with Tula is actually hearing safe, with duty loads it sounds a little louder, very similar to a 22 pistol.

Penetration thru walls is only an problem if you plan to miss, don't take low percentage shots. I actually like the ability to defeat some barriers.
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Old September 16, 2018, 09:39 AM   #45
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Sorry, but if I'm going with a long gun, it's going to be a 5.56 carbine at a minimum. 9mm is laughably underpowered for a full-sized rifle class weapon. PERIOD.

Fair point. I frequently forget that my "PCC" is in fact a pistol-caliber...pistol, with a 7.5" barrel. The way I see it is with suppressed, subsonic ammo I can absolutely get 2-3 more shots off than I could with a rifle-cartridge indoors without hearing protection.

But when it comes to full auto, I don't feel handicapped at all. I can still get more than enough rounds off at any one point to feel more than comfortable.

Bur still, thanks for keeping me honest, Win
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Old September 16, 2018, 10:02 AM   #46
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I tried unsuccessfully to get them adopted as an interim arm in case a long range shot had to be taken. Cops have enough trouble at 25 yards so don't ask them to shoot at 50-75. In short, I think they had a purpose but are now superfluous in light of the police patrol carbine in 5.56 mm Nato. The Los Angeles bank robbery where the assailants were armed with semiautomatic AKs demonstrated that the police have to engage at longer distance with rifle caliber and not pistol caliber firearms.
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Old September 16, 2018, 11:01 AM   #47
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The Los Angeles bank robbery where the assailants were armed with semiautomatic AKs
Bit of a game changer, that one was. I think, perhaps not only because they were armed with AKs but also because a lot of the shoot out was caught on video, something that hadn't happened before.

Without going back and checking, I think the bad guys were armed with several different weapons, and at least one of them (and HK, I think) had been illegally converted to full auto. Also, I think the bad guys were wearing body armor. Didn't they take several body hits from pistols before being stopped?

I seem to remember one of them taking several hits, and ignoring them, until he got shot in the foot. Then, he shoots himself (in the head) with a pistol.

That was also the shootout where some cops "borrowed" some ARs from a gunshop. Without filling out any forms, without any background check, and without going through CA's waiting period (15days, at the time, IIRC).

Now, I understand exigent circumstances, and the temporary "theft" of your property for the public good (sorry Ma'am, I need to borrow your car...) But I wondered, at the time, and again each time it comes up again, what would (and what could) the officers have done, IF the city and state's gun control laws had driven that gunshop out of business, or moved out of the city?? Like NYC, Chicago, Wa DC and other places where there (essentially) is no gun shop with better weapons around to borrow from in time of dire need??

PERHAPS, had he police had 9mm PCCs things might have been a little different. Might not have made a difference against the body armor, but the carbine might have allowed the accuracy needed for a head shot.

As to the cops using 5.56mm carbines over 9mm (or anything else), don't fool yourself into thinking they chose the 5.56mm because of its effectiveness over the 9mm. They didn't. They chose the AR and its round because of the cost. A cost which was mostly covered by the Fed. The Fed gave police depts. ARs (actually M16s in the beginning) at cost, or less.

And, since they ARE useful, later switching to something that has added costs out of their own pockets wasn't happening. In general. There were/are exceptions.
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Old September 16, 2018, 11:17 AM   #48
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Is a pistol caliber carbine right for you? It depends on the kind of shooting you want to do. They are great for punching paper and ringing steel plates at the range. They are typically light and easy to handle. Pistol caliber carbines offer low recoil and less report than a mid size rifle like the 5.56.

The optimal barrel length for a 9mm is about 8 to 10 inches if I remember correctly. After that nothing is really gained. However a 16 inch barrel is not going to negatively impact your velocity or accuracy. Ballistics by the inch shows that a 16 inch 9mm carbine can deliver 124 grain JHP's at 1243 FPS and +p 124 grain bullets at 1430 FPS. I can't see anything wrong with that!

I own a Uzi and MP5. I consider 9mm carbines to be effective to 100 yards for my purposes.

Quote:
"Handgun bullets penetrate too far compared to a rifle"
"I use a pistol for HD"
"Well that's totally OK then"
Exactly.
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Old September 16, 2018, 12:33 PM   #49
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I have a Just Right Carbine and love it. To me the main point to a PCC is the idea of having both a rifle and pistol that can use the same ammo. My PCC puts a 9mm into the category of a .357 mag and yet is a very controllable round in a pistol. These are the same reasons I have both revolvers and Lever actions in both .357 and .41 magnum. And as an added bonus, PCC's are just a lot of fun to shoot.
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