What is a great long range rifle for goats

[T. O'Heir]

"...The 06 is good to about 250 yards..." Um, no. A .30 calibre bullet doesn't even stabilize until it's flown 300 yards. And there's more than sufficient remaining energy with a 165 grain bullet at 500 yards. That 165 with 2,960 FPS MV and sighted in 2.5" high at 100 will drop 34.6" at 500. Mind you, 500 is still too far for the average hunter(The wind alone will blow any bullet off target at those distances.), but a .30-06 will do nicely just the same.
"...150 it is..." Too light for long range. 150's are used by target shooters out to ~ 300. 168's to 600 and 175's past there. A 180 or 190 would be better.
"...looking for an excuse..." "I want one." is a reason. Wouldn't buy anything I couldn't buy ammo for in Walmart though(coined as The Walmart Test). Small places will not have stuff like any Weatherby named cartridge. Probably no 6.5 anything either. Only matters if the airline loses your ammo or you left it on the kitchen table.

[FITASC]

Here in the US (in most states) we can order in ammo delivered to our homes. Weatherby ammo, like Lazzeroni and others, is expensive to start, but this is where reloading comes into play.

If I only had Walmart as my ammo supplier, I would be severely limited to your basics - .223, .308, 30-06, maybe some 30-30 depending on locale or even .243. I couldn't even have a .22 then since they never seem to have any.

[HiBC]

Shooters come in more than one skill level and there is more than one way to shoot long range.
Many folks (and I say this with respect) are using skills and methods typical of the 1960's.Actually,far earlier with the introduction of the"express" rifle.An example might be an 1886 Win in 45-90...shooting 300 gr bullets.Flat shooting is relative.
Mr Weatherby was one champion of the idea of using velocity to extend useful trajectory.In this post,folks are suggesting the .257 Weatherby as an "ultimate" long range rifle.Indeed,the .257 Weatherby,with its very high velocity,is still regarded by many as "the champ".

I shoot a 257 AI,and I hold it in high regard...but I know something about over 3000 fps 25 cal bullets. For off the shelf,common items,the Weatherby,and my .257,are twisted 1 in 10 inches.That is ,to my knowledge,as tight of a twist as factory 25 cal rifles come.
There is a limit to how long of a bullet a 1 in 10 twist will stabilize.Its someplace in the 120 gr range. Berger makes a hunting VLD I have not tried.I don't know much about it.
For myself,the best longer range bullet is a 115 gr Ballistic tip. I think the BC is .435. I shoot those a 3050 fps.
I ,myself,use the relatively flat trajectory,reticle features,and Kentucky windage to make it a good,simple,practical 400 yd hunting tool.Past that,I call "too far" and get closer.

That system works,as far as it goes. But,is anyone using a .25 for long range target shooting? The high BC bullets just aren't there.But if you go up .007 in bullet diameter,the 6.5 bullets are there.

Some shooters,and other tools and resources have redefined long range shooting. I think when folks hear of remarkably long range shots,like over 600 yds,they need to understand that there is no magic cartridge or rifle that gets that done.

I noted that kraigwy once wrote" Sniping is the weaponization of mathematics"
And indeed,longer range successful shooting employs skills taught to snipers.

In the 60's and 70's heydays of velocity for long range,almost no one knew what a "BC" was for. Few owned chronographs.A lazer rangefinder ? Maybe in a Buck Rogers comic.
And folks carry cellphones with more computing power than NASA had for the Apollo missions. Ballistic softwares are free online. We can carry a Kestrel winf meter in a shirt pocket that reads all sorts of barometric data.

My brother bought an AR-10 T then learned how to use it.He wore out the Badger barrel and replaced it with a Krieger.

I took him pronghorn hunting ...his second animal,.We were in place before dawn.As the sun came up,I pointed out a bedded down herd,far off.

He decided to go. He crawled through prickly pear,kept low and concealed,till there was no more cover.I watched him lazer the range,measure the wind,enter the data in his phone,and twist his knobs.(3,5-10 Leupold M-1) He put his bipod down,
and touched off one shot.Instant kill.On the animal,he hit within 2 inches of his point of aim. The exotic long range screaming high vel cartridge was a 308,shooting 168 gr Ballistic tips pushed with Varget.
The range was 653 yds.

If you want to up your long range capability,if your 30-06 is accurate(in the 1 MOA range),upgrade your optics,ranging,and wind reading capabilities,and become skilled at using them. FWIW,I would NOT choose an astronomical telescope sight for your rifle. You have to pack it. That 3.5 to 10 40 mm Obj Leupold Long range 30 mm tube served US military snipers well for decades.

Not just any lazer will do,to read on hair as far as you want to shoot. I forgot the brand,but its not the common ones.

As I recall,kraigwy mentioned a rangefinder that worked well.My old Leica was one of the better ones when I bought it. I'll call it "OK,but I can't always get a read"

In goat country,even with the tools,there may be many threads of varying winds you will be shooting through.I don't know of a tech tool we can buy that solves that one.

To get an idea of theoretical range limitation,look to you hunting bullet manufacturer for the lowest velocity that bullet will expand and give good killing performance.It will be someplace around 2000 fps.

Then figure out what range you still have that velocity at the altitude you are hunting. You don't want your goat traveling after the shot.

[LineStretcher]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...The 06 is good to about 250 yards..." Um, no. A .30 calibre bullet doesn't even stabilize until it's flown 300 yards. And there's more than sufficient remaining energy with a 165 grain bullet at 500 yards. That 165 with 2,960 FPS MV and sighted in 2.5" high at 100 will drop 34.6" at 500. Mind you, 500 is still too far for the average hunter(The wind alone will blow any bullet off target at those distances.), but a .30-06 will do nicely just the same.
"...150 it is..." Too light for long range. 150's are used by target shooters out to ~ 300. 168's to 600 and 175's past there. A 180 or 190 would be better.
"...looking for an excuse..." "I want one." is a reason. Wouldn't buy anything I couldn't buy ammo for in Walmart though(coined as The Walmart Test). Small places will not have stuff like any Weatherby named cartridge. Probably no 6.5 anything either. Only matters if the airline loses your ammo or you left it on the kitchen table.

Most shots on sheep are uphill unless you just happen to get really lucky and pop over a ridge and find them grazing in a valley below.

What's your holdover at 400 yards when the sheep is 300 yards up the side of a mountain or down in the valley with the 30-06. Wait, do that math in your head.. oops, he saw you and is out of ethical range now. The Weatherby 6.5-300 was made for these situations. Next best is the Weatherby 270 magnum and then the 300 WSM. Of course a 30-06 will kill a sheep if you can get close enough. Hell a .380 with a 2" barrel will too if you can get close enough.

If anyone reading this thread doesn't understand ethical hunting decisions you probably dont hunt or never had the opportunity to hunt with a true conservationist hunter.

[FITASC]

He decided to go. He crawled through prickly pear,kept low and concealed,till there was no more cover.I watched him lazer the range,measure the wind,enter the data in his phone,and twist his knobs.(3,5-10 Leupold M-1) He put his bipod down,
and touched off one shot.Instant kill.On the animal,he hit within 2 inches of his point of aim. The exotic long range screaming high vel cartridge was a 308,shooting 168 gr Ballistic tips pushed with Varget.
The range was 653 yds

Antelope will come right up to you - if you know how to make them come in.

All that gadgetry works on a static target, but what if they were grazing and moving? Sorry, sometimes you just have to work a little harder, get a little closer, and rely on YOUR skill as a hunter.

JMO, YMMV

[Dano4734]

Well that is why I like asking you experience folks how to do it and what I need to start my skill set. I have more than a year to prepare and for me it’s the hunt. I try to do it right by asking, reading and practicing. The rest is up to nature to give me the opportunity. However, at my age, it is a gift to still be hiking around and beating the bush. Even after heart surgery, multiple back and neck surgeries etc. I will not go gentle into that arm chair and remote

[HiBC]

Antelope will come right up to you - if you know how to make them come in.

All that gadgetry works on a static target, but what if they were grazing and moving? Sorry, sometimes you just have to work a little harder, get a little closer, and rely on YOUR skill as a hunter

Fitsac,I've lived in Northern Colorado since 1966.I shot my first pronghorn in 69,amd since,I have killed a LOT of them.Some years,I could buy two extra over the counter tags.I had access to near 4 sections of private land.Anytime during the year I can watch them,play with white rags,etc
They get a lot less curious opening day of rifle season,then there are the folks driving vehicles on the othe rside of the fence.

I really don't need for you to tell me anything about pronghorn hunting.FWIW,I get most of mine inside 250 yds,and I do "get closer". I usually fill opening morning.With a one shot clean kill.I glued Berber carpet on the knees and elbows of my hunting clothes to crawl through cactus.

I have already explained how I use my rifle and the ranges I shoot,more than once. I do it all with my duplex.I quit carrying the laser,etc. But I used the lazer and ballistic software to learn my rifle.

This thread is not about antelope hunting.The OP is asking about long range goat rifles.
Instead of assuming a morally superior position and telling him how to hunt,I did my best to give an honest answer to his question
The idea that some magic rifle makes anyone a long range shooter is barn carpet.
None of the magic whizmo cartridges "shoots flat" for ranges a whole lot more than 400,maybe 500 yds.(spare me,I know none of them "shoot flat")

It may very well be that you are one of the many who is not competent to use "the gadgets" and the ballistic skills Thats OK. A man's got to know his limitations.My Sierra ballistic software came on floppy discs and its loaded in an H-P 386 SX Dos computer.Thats about the time I learned ranging with a mil-dot.That was a while ago.I passed on all I learned to this brother.

I'll explain it to you again.I am not an advocate of long range shooting at game.The OP asked about his 30-06 .
I told the story because to make a clean,one shot kill like that,you have to know the range. With a 308,a 25 yd error is too much.Northern Colorado,just south of Wyo,you have to know the wind.Its there. Ranging a goat through open space is not done with imaginary football fields.The winds will be there.Altitude matters.Uphill/downhill can matter.Temperature matters.
"Hold about three feet high and a body length left ,I think...its pretty far and his beard is blowing" is not the best way.

The people who know what they are doing,who are not counting on luck,use data and correct W+E with turrets before they shoot.

Brother hit the high lung shot behind the foreleg he was aiming at and the animal dropped. a RIFLEMAN with SKILLS can do that with a 308.And,FWIW,he did about 300 yds of crawling closer.Then he had open,exposed ground to cross. They would see him.So he set up his shot.

And the guy who thinks his .257 Weatherby or 6.5 by 416 Rigby shoots flat or holds over a bit isn't in the league to confidently make a 653 yd one shot kill with no "gadgets" Buying any rifle does not give you skills.

The 308 isn't a "long range rifle" Its a"Normal Range Rifle"

Its the Rifleman who has long range skills. That is my point to offer the OP.

[LineStretcher]

Well said HiBC. Not sure how Antelope got into the mix, I use my .243 for those but dang, I didn't get tags this year. The title of this thread clearly said Goats and I'm assuming he means Big Horn Sheep that are often referred to as Mountain Goats and not the farmers goats in the pen next door. We've got them here in Nevada and I've hunted them. I wish non hunters would stop replying to hunting questions. They don't realize how silly their replies sound.

[Dano4734]

From what the guys here in Alaska said the mountain goats have vision like I never seen. Apparently 400 or 500 yard shots are not uncommon. I am pretty darn good to 300 with my 06 but need a lot of practice before any hunt for them At those ranges as I need practice . If i can’t down it or uncomfortable with the shot i won’t take it as i think it is wrong to wound an animal.

[LineStretcher]

That's the right attitude and why I recommend a flat shooting rifle. 250 yards is the general limit for an ethical kill with the 06. It's not that the rifle can't kill at longer distances, it can but beyond 250 yards you're almost trying to lob the round at the target. The hot ticket is the Weatherby 6.5-300 but if your budget doesn't allow that then the Browning X Bolt hell's canyon speed in 300 WSM is a very viable alternative. The .270 WSM is also good but you loose a little versatility if you want to hunt for large game like Moose or even large Elk at longer distances. Oh and yes, the Goats vision is superb (some estimate a mile) and they are skittish. Nothing is more frustrating than to be tracking one for miles in steep terrain and then have him look right at you and go straight up a mountain you can't even began to think about climbing.

[pete2]

.270 would be my 1st choice but a 30.06 or 7 mag would also work as would a 25.06. Lots of new stuff available but ammo may not be in the local grocery store.

[armednfree]

How about the 6.5/284?

[HiBC]

Sure sems like I grew up reading Russel Anabel,John Jobson,Pete Brown,etc...when folks in the 1950's,the 1960's,the 1970's,etc collected their Dall sheep with .270's,30-06 's, etc.
We'll just have to disagree about the max effective range of a 30-06.

I would take from your statement that the maximum useful range for a 30-06 is 250yds that YOUR PERSONAL maximum effective range with a 30-06 is 250 yds.
Which,I won't argue with.

For myself,the 30-06 cartridge is only limited by the range the velocity falls low enough that the hunting bullet will not expand and perform...generally in the vicinity of 2000 fps.

The lower duplex feature of a Boone and Crockett reticle should be good for about 500. But you'll have to retune your ranges for altitude with a good ballistic software,after verifying all the ranges at a known altitude.

The Leupold CDS system is also good.

Then,of course,come "How steady am I?" How is the wind?How good is my ranging?......Which all comes together with the question "Do I KNOW I can make this shot?"

Or do I see game,want to shoot at it,believe I have some magic rifle,so I'm going to take a poke and HOPE.

If you are ranging,checking a come up and wind correction,and applying it,It just does not matter much if that correction is 5.5 MOA or 6.25 MOA, or 7 MOA they work. The shot gets placed.

And cartridge does not have anything to do with the shooter's ability to hold and squeeze.

If "long range" is 500 yds,the 30-06 is quite capable,if the shooter is.

[Dano4734]

500 yards is not me at the moment but will be. Before my moose hunt I went through over 300 rounds of 45-70 just to know exactly how my new gun shoots and how this old guy shoots. I took the moose at 180 yards with one shot. Not much of a shot with other rifles but I had the drop completely dialed in on that gun. Bam flop. I don’t like guessing while hunting. I always said I am not a good hunter at all. But I am a very prepared hunter

[Colorado Redneck]

I am no "long range shooter." Shooting prairie dogs past 400 yards with fair consistency only happened for me because of a decent scope that is repeatable and dependable. So bagging a goat at 500-600 yards with a 30-06, if the optics are up to the challenge, is doable. The OP has the correct plan, IMHO, and in a years time can probably develop the skill. No need for a different cartridge. Good optics, good range finder, good round, and practice are the answers. And even with all of the preparation and skill, sometimes things go bad anyway. Fairly often I have the crosshairs on a prairie rat, and at the instant my autopilot takes over pulling the trigger the damn critter drops down on all fours, or turns, or moves. And I score a miss. A 30 cal Nosler Long Range Accubond fired at 2900 fps will take nearly 3/4 of a second to reach a target 600 yards away. Stuff happens.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by LineStretcher

250 yards is the general limit for an ethical kill with the 06. It's not that the rifle can't kill at longer distances, it can but beyond 250 yards you're almost trying to lob the round at the target.

A cartridge isn't ethical to use on game once you start having to correct for trajectory? Am I understanding your statement correctly? If I am correct it sounds like you're talking about maximum point blank range or MPBR.

How about we look at MPBR for the .30-06 and 6.5-300? At maximum point blank range the 6.5-300 Weatherby shooting a 140 grain bullet only has an average of 66 +/- yards more range than a 30-06 shooting a 168 grain bullet on a 10" diameter kill zone. To use your term after 66 more yards you're having to "lob" those 6.5 bullets in as well, because you can't get there without a trajectory correction.

A 168 grain Nosler ABLR with an average muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS will give a MPBR trajectory on a 10" target of 343 yards at sea level. The 6.5-300 Weatherby with a 142 grain Nosler ABLR with an average muzzle velocity of 3300 FPS gets us to 409 yards at sea level on the same size target. Yes I found data that pushes the 140 grain bullets to 3400 FPS and I also had a data that would do over 2900 FPS with the 168 grain, but 2800 and 3400 FPS seemed to be a pretty average across many sources.

I understand your preference and belief in the 6.5-300, but when we look at the numbers neither cartridge is a magical fix for long range hunting. However, I'll put my money on familiarity and confidence in a rifle and shooter using it when it comes to that critical moment of breaking that trigger with a big game animal in your sights. I've spent a lot of time and money looking for my perfect combo of rifle and cartridge, and I've come to realize that I'd have been better off and money ahead if I had just stuck with my .270 Win all along. The .270 while not perfect is certainly capable for 90% of my hunting situations, that's why I suggested the OP stick with his 06.

[LineStretcher]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

A cartridge isn't ethical to use on game once you start having to correct for trajectory? Am I understanding your statement correctly? If I am correct it sounds like you're talking about maximum point blank range or MPBR.

How about we look at MPBR for the .30-06 and 6.5-300? At maximum point blank range the 6.5-300 Weatherby shooting a 140 grain bullet only has an average of 66 +/- yards more range than a 30-06 shooting a 168 grain bullet on a 10" diameter kill zone. To use your term after 66 more yards you're having to "lob" those 6.5 bullets in as well, because you can't get there without a trajectory correction.

A 168 grain Nosler ABLR with an average muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS will give a MPBR trajectory on a 10" target of 343 yards at sea level. The 6.5-300 Weatherby with a 142 grain Nosler ABLR with an average muzzle velocity of 3300 FPS gets us to 409 yards at sea level on the same size target. Yes I found data that pushes the 140 grain bullets to 3400 FPS and I also had a data that would do over 2900 FPS with the 168 grain, but 2800 and 3400 FPS seemed to be a pretty average across many sources.

I understand your preference and belief in the 6.5-300, but when we look at the numbers neither cartridge is a magical fix for long range hunting. However, I'll put my money on familiarity and confidence in a rifle and shooter using it when it comes to that critical moment of breaking that trigger with a big game animal in your sights. I've spent a lot of time and money looking for my perfect combo of rifle and cartridge, and I've come to realize that I'd have been better off and money ahead if I had just stuck with my .270 Win all along. The .270 while not perfect is certainly capable for 90% of my hunting situations, that's why I suggested the OP stick with his 06.

No, you missed the point completely. Experience, not bean counter statistics, determine what's ethical and what's not.

[andrew.wojtkow20]

Well here is what I would recommend a Tikka T3x Forester in either 6.5 Creedmoor or in 308 both rounds are lethal at long range. There is also a new scope that came out the Vortex Diamond Back Tactical. It is awesome because it is 6-24-50 and it is really clear glass and it’s only 400 dollars. It also has range turret adjustments so that way you don’t have to sight in for 800 yards every time. And then you have all this for about 1200 dollars with a scope gun rings and a mount. But either way good luck getting some goats

[big al hunter]

. The title of this thread clearly said Goats and I'm assuming he means Big Horn Sheep that are often referred to as Mountain Goats and not the farmers goats in the pen next door

Nope. Mountain goats and big horn sheep are 2 totally different species. But they inhabit much of the same terrain. Google search for pictures.

While the cartridge is a fairly important part of the hunt, I would say the best reason for a new rifle is to get a light weight package to carry up the mountain. I don't want to lug 10 lbs of rifle if I can get a 6 pound rifle that is accurate enough. I would be looking for a bolt action, skeleton stock, in something like 7-08 or 270 win .

[Ben Dover]

Your .30-06 is all you need.

If you're just looking to buy another rifle, take a hard look at the .25-06, 270 Win. 6.5 CM etc.

Personally, I would avoid the big overbore belchfire magnums like the plague.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by LineStretcher

No, you missed the point completely. Experience, not bean counter statistics, determine what's ethical and what's not.

No I don't think I missed the point, I'm pretty sure your using words like ethical thinking no one can disagree with that. You're also claiming many of us don't have experience hunting, and of using "bean counter statistics". I totally disagree with you on the range that a .30-06 is good for, and in my experience cartridges like the 6.5-Weatherby, .270 Weatherby, .300 Win Mag, or .300 WSM you've mentioned have very little to due with hunting success. Pre-hunt preparation, and effort put into the actual hunt are much better insurance for a successful hunt than any cartridge or rifle you can choose. In my experience the rifle/cartridge you choose matters very little in the end as long as you've done the preparation and put in the effort.