VA Denying Vets Second Amendment Rights Without Notice

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Prince Law blog is reporting a case where a vet who was not incompetent, financially or otherwise, was declared incompetent by VA on their own iniative and then had his Second Amendment rights revoked without notice. If the alleged facts are true, it is beyond disturbing:

https://blog.princelaw.com/category/firearms-law/

[Aguila Blanca]

This is the new Veteran Affairs Administration, folks. We now treat our illegal immigrants with more respect and benefits than our own veterans. This is an absolute disgrace and the VA’s policies and procedures need to be immediately reversed. Of course, we’re all aware that such is unlikely if former Secretary Clinton is elected…

We've known about the problem with the VA and veterans who have someone appointed to handle their finances, but this case is worse. It just supports my often-expressed view that the VA can't be trusted.

The article doesn't explain exactly why the VA decided to unilaterally report this guy. It may have something to do with PTSD, or suicide. The VA is on a campaign to classify cases of PTSD, because they are under pressure to treat it, and the more cases they can diagnose ==> the more money they can get to treat it. Ditto with suicides. Suicides among veterans of the recent sandbox wars are a significant problem, but the VA doesn't have a decent way of screening for patients who really are at risk. They use catch-all questions that they toss at you every time you show up for an appointment, even if it's just to trim a hangnail. They take your vitals (height, weight, blood pressure, pulse and oxygen level), and they ask a few harmless-seeming questions such as "How are you feeling today?" (I feel sick, why else would I be coming to a hospital?) and "Have you felt sad in the past week, even a little bit?"

That last one is the gateway to getting classified as a suicide risk. And if they decide you're a suicide risk, never mind what the law says about incompetency or "adjudicated" -- they report you to NICS.

Unfortunately, at this stage of my life I am stuck using the VA "healthcare" system. I have a hard and fast rule: I don't care if my wife just left me, my dog just died, and my pickup just got run over by an eighteen-wheeler, when the nurse asks if I've felt at all sad in the past week my answer is, "Nope, I feel great. I'm just here for a routine follow-up."

[BarryLee]

This seems like a difficult situation because in some of the more recent high profile shootings the perpetrator was under the care of a mental health professional. We’ve also had a lot of discussion from those on both sides of the gun control issue about dealing with the mentally ill. So, I suspect, those in the profession feel a certain amount of pressure to be more responsive. However, it sounds like the VA may be taking things to the extreme, but I really can’t say for certain.

It would be interesting for me to hear some input from the healthcare and legal professionals that frequent this site and exactly how they feel these issues should to be handled.

[44 AMP]

It would be interesting for me to hear some input from the healthcare and legal professionals that frequent this site and exactly how they feel these issues should to be handled.

It would be interesting, and might be valid and useful guidance, but how these matters SHOULD be handled is not as important as how these matters ARE being handled.

And as far as I can see, the way these matters ARE being handled is in whatever fashion the VA thinks is in their best interest, and gives them the least liability, without the burdensome, and bothersome effort required to FOLLOW FEDERAL LAW!!!!

There is a legal process that needs to be followed in order to declare someone prohibited from owning firearms. IF the stated reason for denial of rights is mental incompetence, the legal process is very specifically spelled out, and involves adjudication by a court, with both sides being allowed to present testimony and evidence under the usual rules.

The VA is NOT doing that. I think a case could be made that they are breaking the law, by not using the required due process.

A Doctor's opinion, (or worse, a bureaucrat, even one with the letter DR in their title) ALONE is not enough. And I think that reporting someone as unstable, resulting in denial of fundamental rights, because they checked a certain box on a form isn't just unethical, I think it borders on criminal!
of course, that's just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it...

Some 15 years ago, I bought a rifle from a co-worker, because her husband, a disabled veteran, was being required by the VA to get rid of it. \

He had some serious medical problems, and some "mental issues" (he was "depressed"). Anyone who has had a long term medical problem can tell you how that can easily make you "depressed".

The (local) VA told him that he had to remove all firearms, bows, swords and spears from his home, or they would refuse him treatment! I do not know if he could have successfully fought it, on legal grounds, the point was moot, because he elected to voluntarily comply with their demands.

I didn't think it was right, but it seemed to be within the VA's authority, as an "in house" matter. Their requirements (and decisions) only affected what the VA did, or didn't do.

This is an ENTIRELY different matter than "someone" at the VA deciding to report you (and remember, it may NOT be the doctor you see and speak with that reports you..) being "mentally unstable" to OTHER government agencies, which are required by their own rules to place "mentally unstable" people on the prohibited person list.

The people this is happening to are individuals, without an effective collective voice, who are, as I see it, being denied established due process, and the basic constitutional protection of equal treatment under the law. These people are, effectively, being convicted, and punished, without having their "day in court".

I'm a Veteran, and I have some medical problems, but I would NOT willingly go to the VA, for ANY reason. It's a personal matter, but I would rather live my entire remaining life under crushing debt to private medical treatment than risk falling into the clutches of the VA system...

I have a great deal of sympathy for those fellow vets for whom the VA is the only choice. It is enough that they risked their lives in service to their country, they should NOT have to risk their lives, OR THEIR RIGHTS to GET service FROM their country. Sadly, if you go to the VA, that is what you get. Risk.

[eastbank]

the only thing i ever got from the va was a flu shot in a va van that goes around in walmart parking lots offering the shots. i do think i need hearing aids from service connected noise, but then i would not have a excuse for not taking the garbage out, what did you say dear. eastbank.

[Chaz88]

I'm a Veteran, and I have some medical problems, but I would NOT willingly go to the VA, for ANY reason.

i do think i need hearing aids from service connected noise

I am in about the same boat. I am a retired Veteran. The "affordable care act" has made what was a great healthcare plan too expensive for me to use. I need hearing aids and few other things looked at but am afraid to to put myself in the hands of the VA. Guess I will just keep asking people to talk louder until I can come up with an extra 5 or 6 thousand dollars.

It is infuriating every time I think about how Tricare pulled the rug out from under me on what was promised and then the VA pulls stuff like this. I am not getting any younger or in better shape, hope some of this gets resolved soon.

[AzShooter]

Chaz I'd go to the VA for my hearing aids. They have been great to me.

Recently I had a small accident and after picking everything up I noticed one of my hearing aids was missing. I called the VA the next day and was told "Don't worry they are under warranty and we will main it out to you in about 2 weeks."

Can't beat that service.

[tony pasley]

I will NEVER go back to the VA again. The last time they ordered a MRI and records show I have 6 pins in me, we argued and I told them where to stick the VA and not to use lube.

[AirForceShooter]

I wouldn't go near the VA with a 10 foot poll.
I know a shrink that works there.
Every other shrink he knows there is of the opinion that EVERY combat vet suffers from PTSD. He says no one can come out of combat mentally stable.

AFS

[44 AMP]

the opinion that EVERY combat vet suffers from PTSD. He says no one can come out of combat mentally stable.

I have heard this, or some variation of this from a number of people. Many of them have gone on to state how no one who voluntarily goes into combat, wears their nation's uniform, or understands arms and their use (let alone enjoys them) is "mentally stable".

Of course, the accuracy of that opinion depends entirely on their definition of mentally stable. Myself, and I think, more than a few million people around the globe, disagree with the idea that "no one can come out of combat mentally stable".

It is, on the face of it, a truly foolish statement, considering the way that most of us define mentally unstable.

I think it is fair to say that "no one" survives personal combat entirely unchanged, but I think that claiming that change is blanket mental instability in everyone is ... well, I'm not quite sure what it is, beyond supreme arrogance, and elitism.

I have heard professionals say that everyone on the planet has had or will suffer from PTSD. They way they define it, they are essentially correct.
POST =after (simple enough)

TRAUMATIC STRESS = any stressful "life changing" event.
This is a hugely broad category, ranging from the stress of war & combat to the stress of a child losing a beloved grandparent, (which is in the natural order of things...)

These, and everything in between (and quite a bit on either side) fall into their category of "traumatic stress". Literally, any highly stressful situation one might find in life.

DISORDER = deviation (in any degree) from the established "approved" order. Any response that differs from their standard, in large or small degree, can, and often is classed as a "disorder".

So, if you don't respond, (in all particulars) the way they THINK YOU OUGHT TO, and you have ever had a stressful situation in your life, they could "correctly" classify you as PTSD.

If this isn't the ultimate slippery slope, it's got to be in the top few.

Quite literally, it boils down to "if you don't act/think exactly the way we think you should, you are crazy". Though they won't use a term as crass as "crazy" they will say "mentally unstable".

It is absolutely true that extreme stress (combat especially) mentally damages some people very badly. Some of them recover, some never do.

However I think that the blanket assumption that everyone is badly damaged, is the wrong way to help individuals.

Remember that "professional" only means that they get paid for doing it. It does not mean expert, or even correct. Those are ideals, and quite often in the real world, we fall short of attaining the ideal.

[Aguila Blanca]

The VA has some other tricks up its sleeve, too.

They now have a program called "My Health-e Vet" (or something pretty close to that), which is an opportunity to sign up for on-line access so you can check your records, e-mail you primary care provider, make and confirm appointments, and maybe a couple of other purported features. Sounds good, right? Heck, I'd like to be able to just e-mail my doctor instead of playing phone tag with a nurse for days just to ask a simple question. But ... there's a catch (isn't there always?).

In order to register to participate in My Health-e Vet, you have to sign a document. If you read it before signing (which I did), you'll probably never sign it (which I didn't). Basically, it's a permission slip that allows the VA to share your [formerly somewhat] confidential medical history with a host of other federal agencies that have nothing whatsoever to do with providing you healthcare.

Obviously, My Health-e Vet is nothing more than a level of computer access authorization. They could grant me and all veterans who own a computer or have access to the Internet that level of access tomorrow. (Okay, it's Saturday -- make it Monday.) There is no need for other federal agencies to have access to my health records in order for me to be able to e-mail my doctor, or make an appointment on-line.

So, donning my ever-present tinfoil skull cap (the shiny one with the pointy antenna on top), I have to conclude that My Health-e Vet is in reality a scam to entice unsuspecting veterans to "voluntarily" (albeit naively and unknowingly) sign away the confidentiality of their VA medical records. No thanks. I can still pick up the phone and call when I want to make an appointment. If I need to get a message to my doctor, the VA hospital is just a short detour from my normal route to and from work, so it's easy to just swing by and drop of a physical note, on paper.

[44 AMP]

Speaking as someone who hasn't had a hospital stay or visit in the last 50+ years, and for decades, only saw a doctor once a year, for a company required physical, could someone explain to me, in general (and simple) terms,

What is so important about the privacy of medical records??

Prevent embarrassment?

Can you legally be denied a job (that you physically & mentally can do) because of something in your medical records??
(if you are denied, due to something in your medical records, how does that square with the law about disabled people? (ADA)

A Security clearance? (ok, forget that one, they are going to look anyway)

I really don't understand why the issue is so important to some people. I understand that ALL privacy is important, its important to me, as well.

What I don't get is people who are fine with sharing everything about their lives (or at least not objecting to it being seen) UNTIL it comes to medical records.

Seems like anything serious that requires a medical evaluation, you have to give permission for someone other than the DR to see the records anyway...
(potential employer, Life Insurance company, etc..)

SO just why is it some people feel so strongly about it?

I don't want the government to have a list of the guns I own, but I don't care if they keep track of how many times I had the flu or broke a finger in the last 50 years..., what can they possibly do with medical information??

[johnwilliamson062]

The VA is on a campaign to classify cases of PTSD, because they are under pressure to treat it, and the more cases they can diagnose ==> the more money they can get to treat it.

EVERY combat vet suffers from PTSD.

What about vets who never saw combat? Who never even served in country? They closest they got was a boat out at sea? I know one who has told me he has partial disability payments FOR LIFE from being diagnosed with PTSD at VA and that he was nowhere close to combat. Blows my mind considering how many seem to need help and can't get it.

One problem often overlooked is the military has a history of accepting those of borderline mental stability before they enter service. People attracted by "employer of last resort" aspect.

[Old Bill Dibble]

People attracted by "employer of last resort" aspect.

Since more than 60% of the population in the eligible age group is ineligible to serve I am not sure how that works.

I imagine people with mental problems do get through but a lot don't finish training... because they have a mental problem.

So far as PTSD goes it is more qualitative and not very quantifiable. The VA will err on the side that is least likely to get them unpopular press. Truth is they are a government agency and often populated with inept bureaucrats looking for the next pay grade.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Old Bill Dibble

The VA will err on the side that is least likely to get them unpopular press. Truth is they are a government agency and often populated with inept bureaucrats looking for the next pay grade.

And the VA hospitals and clinics are staffed by doctors. Some of them, like my primary care physician, are full time VA employees. At least at the VA hospital where I go, all the specialty clinics are staffed by residents and faculty drawn from the nearby university medical school and teaching hospital. Which means we have a bunch of people who spend most of their time in a liberal, ivory tower bastion of political correctness spending one or two days a week venturing forth from their PC fortresses to dirty their hands treating veterans.

It's well known that a great many doctors are virulently anti-gun. The AMA is anti-gun. I'm sure that attitude gets conveyed (directly, or perhaps indirectly) to medical students as they go through their training. Then they get placed in a position of power and authority over men and women who have actually carried guns on a daily basis, and they don't know what to do about it. So they (the doctors) react the only way they know how -- they do everything they can to separate the veterans from their guns.

Many, many years ago, on some other gun forum that probably doesn't even exist today, someone posted with remarkable prescience that anyone who needs mental health assistance should find a psychiatrist or psychologist in another city, pay in cash, and use an assumed name. Events since that post was made have only proven how correct that statement was. Of course, you can't use an assumed name at a VA facility, but the whole point is that a VA facility may be the worst possible place for a veteran to really get help for anything other than real, full-blown PTSD. I've never experienced one of their mental health clinics and I don't have any intention of doing so, but my experience from other clinics is that the VA tends to operate on a "one size fits all" modality. If their canned approach happens to work for you, that's great. If their canned approach doesn't happen to work with you -- well, you're just not trying hard enough. The residents (and some of the attending physicians) at the VA seem to have skipped the high school class on the scientific method, the one where they teach that "If the results of the experiment don't support the theory, you can't change the facts so you need to change the theory." Too many of the VA doctors think the veterans need to change the facts.

[johnwilliamson062]

There is some truth to the 60% don't qualify figure, but it isn't exactly relevant. Many of those who do not qualify are perfectly employable and are in fact employed in great jobs that don't care if they are prescribed adderall by a doctor. When the economy crashed the Marine Corp decided they would select qualified officer candidates based on physical fitness scores exclusively. One needed to score three consecutive 300 PFTs in the months preceding OCS in order to go to OCS. There was no similar tightening of the other entry scores. I was acquainted with someone who scored 300s for months and months before his selection paperwork was sent up on one test doing about ten extra pull-ups(30ish), runs in 16 minutes, and sit-ups galore. He was two months before going to OCS and only scored 299 and they seriously considered not sending him. What civilian employer would do that?

http://time.com/2938158/youth-fail-t...itary-service/
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/13/wo...s.6652316.html
Somewhere between 30-40% of the population is eligible and 95%+ of those don't pursue military careers. According to that story, 21% of enlisted don't meet the diploma requirement. 12% require moral waivers. There are tons and tons of medical waivers approved. There are times, like a few years after 9/11 or during force reduction under Clinton, when not many waivers were handed out, but it isn't always that way.
Someone coming from a poor family who has extremely limited healthcare may be in desperate need of ADHD medication and not be able to hold a job b/c of it, but may meet recruitment qualifications because they were never diagnosed. The same goes for many other mental issues.
Talk to a psychologist at the VA about what their budget is for mental health issues. Bi-polar, schizophrenia, and other serious illnesses. Eddie Ray Routh may not be the norm, but he also isn't an unheard of outlier.

So far as PTSD goes it is more qualitative and not very quantifiable. The VA will err on the side that is least likely to get them unpopular press. Truth is they are a government agency and often populated with inept bureaucrats looking for the next pay grade.

Pretty much.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Some of this is undoubtedly reaction to the last few high profile mass killer shooters who were veterans. I am willing to bet some high handed memo came down that set new executive policies that have not yet been codified.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

What is so important about the privacy of medical records??

Regarding keeping your medical records private, I'll start the list off...

1. Because your medical records are, well yours, not someone else's.

2. Because your medical records might contain embarrassing information.

3. Because your medical records might contain information that someone, like an employer, uses to discriminate against you. Good luck proving it too.

4. Because there aren't useful purpose(s), at least to the individual whose medical records are in question, to share those records with someone outside the medical profession.

There is some overlap and the list is hardly exhaustive but I think it is a good start. Just as I have no problem with someone who makes their medical history public, they should have no problem with me keeping my medical history private.

[thallub]

Yep, the VA gets away with a lot of stuff when it comes to reporting veterans to NICS.

Congress could very easily fix this one; but they steadfastly refuse to do so.
Several years ago i attended a speech by our Oklahoma senator Coburn. Coburn promised to pass legislation that eliminated the VA practice of reporting veterans with fiduciaries to NICS.

In the end senator Coburn kowtowed to the wishes of senator Schumer. Coburn lied to us veterans.

A very high percentage of veterans, especially military retirees, apply for and are granted service connected disabilities for PTSD and TBI. Because only a very small percentage of the US population ever serves, our troops are being run to death. i know soldiers who have served 6-11 combat tours since 0911.

BTW: Lots of retired cops are granted disabilities for PTSD.

[dreaming]

I didn't notice any mention of an important reason for keeping medical records confidential. Without confidence patients are not likely to be candid with their health care providers and that not only affects that patient's health but the health of others. For instance, a spouse doesn't see the doctor for a suspected case of venereal disease. Not only does that person develop complications and may later prove difficult to treat, but they may spread their infection to other members of the community, including but not limited to their significant other.

Mental disease, which is what this thread is focused on, is a serious killer of veterans and for them to be afraid to seek care from the VA due to an abuse of confidentiality is shameful.